How do we decide which brutalities are worse in Grimdark?

[Kalbear]

Just to be sure, since there may still be readers left who actually believe what Kalbear is saying about others, apparently without provocation:

I have never said, nor do I mean, anything even resembling a the statement Bakkers aliens do not enjoy raping. The opposite is true. In fact, they have genetically modified themselves to savour all hedonistic pleasures maximally, this (as is made explicit in the text) includes quenching all compassion so as to not mitigate the pleasure sexual violation of others. So, to make it perfectly clear The Inchoroi enjoy raping, and In the Happy Ents opinion, the Inchoroi enjoy rape.

I will in general not have the time nor inclination to monitor Kalbears posts on this board; so please as a general rule disregard what hes saying when he represents the opinions of others, even if no retraction from the slandered party appears.

would you like me to pull up your many page argument on how the inchoroi aren't rapists? Unlike real memories these are actually saved as they were and not as you want to remember them.

It's only slander if it is not true.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Also what Lyanna said, you can't rape a prostitute - you can only steal what she is selling (this is probably the view across most cultural histories) bearing in mind the very low status of prostitutes in societies.

Nitpick: up until the nineteenth century, stealing under the Common Law required actually making off with something against the owner's will. You thus had a situation where land and services (like prostitution) could not actually be stolen, because you couldn't physically make off with them. Nor was there any legal protection against con artists, because you were still obtaining stuff "with consent".

Raping a prostitute was thus never a theft or a contractual issue. The issue was part perceived consent and part low social status - the Powers That Be would have sniggered at the idea of this lowborn scum not consenting when her entire livelihood depended on intercourse.

[The Marquis de Leech]

It's only slander if it is not true.

Slander is spoken, libel is written, and various jurisdictions just merge them under the general heading of defamation.

[Jo498]

double

[Jo498]

We can all only speak for ourselves. I don’t find male rape particularly notable, no more than any other violation of bodily integrity, such as torture, dismemberment, or murder (which happens to male characters routinely as a basic trope of almost all storytelling.) Males, by and large, are the victims of violence in entertainment. If I could choose between being the recipient of buggery and pretty much every other carnal abuse, I’d take the former. (Moreso if the rape consists of any other type of intercourse than forced anal penetration.)

As you correctly point out, male rape is played for laughs. Female rape isn’t. (In particular, if it happens to an ingroup female.) So I’m probably not alone. Also, very basic biology predicts that forced impregnation of a fertile female beyond of what her gene pool desires (this includes her father, her elder brother, and in Western societies even herself) ought to trigger extra special reactions of disgust and emotional trauma, whereas no such reaction would make sense for males. (Homosexual intercourse between men, whether forced or consensual, sex with mother or sister, and sex with animals on the other hand ought to trigger such feelings, which indeed they do.)

So: my own gut feeling, basic biology, and a sloppy analysis of pop culture predicts that forced female rape, as well as male homosexuality should be notable and disgusting. This explains most observations in a parsimonious fashion.

I am not speaking for myself. Neither am I sure to what extent we disagree.

I try to express what is clearly the dominant position in most of Western history before the late 20th century (and in most other cultures as well) And I suspect it to be the gut feeling of many people even today. "male rape" here is the passive role in forced anal penetration. If you merely insinuated to a 10th century Icelander that he had been in such a position, he would have killed you without flinching. So would Marcellus Wallace.

It's a quite different thing from losing a finger in an accident or even in torture (exaggerated as that scene with Jon Umber who loses fingers or some parts of them to Rob's wolf might be, laughing such an injury off is probably apt for such a culture).

(That the active part in "buggery" is also despised seems more of a Christian thing, at least not as universal. After all, if it is a way to humiliate weaker males in some cultures, some males have to take the active part). In any case that being sodomized amounted to supreme humiliation applied to about any culture similar to "fantasy cultures" (unless the latter are actively subverted in comparison to real history models).

As for females, our reaction to the rape/abuse of certain girls in "Painted Man" is more or less aligned with the in-world-stance. But nobody cares in Bakkerworld whether Esme or Serwe consent. They consent by social role.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Not to switch the subject, have any of you read A Land Fit for Here's by Morgan? There is a horror in that series that pales to anything I've read before. It bugs me out to even think about it. Don't click on spoiler if you don't want to. If not, it doesn't ruin any of the plot.

The Aldrain race favorite use of punishment is to decapitate you then attach your head to a stump. Through magic as long as its in water you stay alive. And your placed in the Grey places and have horrors visited upon you nonstop.

I know its not comparable to acts that can actually happen to you. But, damnit, that's some sick, twisted shit.

[SilentRoamer]

I always interpreted Happy Ents position as one whereby he accepts the Inchoroi are rapists - he just denies rape is their motivating factor - it just happens to be a side effect of their pleasure seeking nature. HE has always denied sadism as a core mechanic of their psyche (I disagree with him on this) and instead hedonism is a key motivation.

I had a long discussion on the Bakker and Women 4 thread - HE made his position clear there - he denied the Inchoroi are sadists and cause pleasure for pleasures sake with any discomfort/pain caused to the willing/unwilling recipients has no emotional value because of their systematic removal of negative emotions (such as compassion). However Happy Ent did concede they are rapists:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34588-bakker-and-women-4/page-14post 276:

Happy Ent: "Ive made it explicit in several posts above that I don't question the fact that Aurang rapes his victims. Im annoyed at having to defend a position that I take pains to disavow."

Anyway im sure Happy Ent can chime in but when I was debating this with him initially I always assumed he refuted that it was rape, this was never his position - just the position I had mistakenly attributed to him.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'm not sure that hedonism and sadism are mutually exclusive. The former is pursuit of pleasure because it feels good. The latter is getting pleasure as a result of inflicting suffering on others. I suppose the acid test would be for the Inchoroi to encounter a human who genuinely wants to be molested by alien phalluses.

(Now we just need someone to write Bakker/de Sade crossover fanfic, putting the Inchoroi in the middle of 120 Days of Sodom).

[SilentRoamer]

I agree Roose I personally do not think hedonism and sadism are mutually exclusive - certainly not in the terms of Inchoroi mentality anyway. I just wanted to point out I have never seen HE deny the Inchies are rapists - he just (IMO) misallocates the root motivation (he assumes Hedonism and I assume brutality and domination).

[Lyanna Stark]

Yeah, "molested by alien phalluses" (or is it phalli?) is pretty much where I duck out of this thread for the day.

Isn't that where these threads invariably end up? :p

Just get the "I got molested by alien phalluses and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" prize and exit to the left!

[Jo498]

The unmentionability of the "unspeakable" acts of homosexuality and male rape also show in it's rarity among traditional epics, folklore, ballads etc. There might be some stuff in really old mythology (because Greeks, although apparently penetration was not as common in paiderastia as one might think) but hardly since then. And I do not think this is only because of Christianity because it seems to apply also to many other myths/sagas/epics.

Whereas seduction/rape (often not quite distinguished because socially very close), including incests (and other condemned stuff) show up all over the place from the bible through classical mythology to medieval epics and folk ballads.

(I still remember that I asked my mother as a child what it was supposed to mean that a girl complained in some song that some villain or knight had "taken her honour"... I do not remember the explanation given.)

So if most of us really feel different now, this is a remarkable shift and cultural change, I think.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The unmentionability of the "unspeakable" acts of homosexuality and male rape also show in it's rarity among traditional epics, folklore, ballads etc. There might be some stuff in really old mythology (because Greeks, although apparently penetration was not as common in paiderastia as one might think) but hardly since then. And I do not think this is only because of Christianity because it seems to apply also to many other myths/sagas/epics.

The one that immediately springs to mind is Loki in Norse myth being impregnated via a stallion, and then giving birth to a foal. Though whether that actually counts as homosexuality given that Loki had swapped genders into a female horse is a bit debatable.

[Jo498]

I did not know that story but I am aware of all the shape-shifting bestiality of classical myth like Zeus with Europa, Leda etc. (but the offspring with a shape shifting god in animal shape looks usually human, unlike the Minotaur of a normal bull and a human female) and he also abducted the beautiful boy Ganymedes to serve him on Olympus.

[Ser Drizztos]

Yeah, "molested by alien phalluses" (or is it phalli?) is pretty much where I duck out of this thread for the day.

AFAIK:

Phalli if derived from Latin "phallus"

Phalloi if derived from Greek "phallos"

Phalluses according to modern English usage

Feel free to correct me; I'm always happy to engage in phallology.

[Xereaux]

AFAIK:

Phalli if derived from Latin "phallus"

Phalloi if derived from Greek "phallos"

Phalluses according to modern English usage

Feel free to correct me; I'm always happy to engage in phallology.

Well, Bakker uses "phalli" in his description of the inchoroi in the reliefs of Cil-Aujas (Chapter 14 of The Judging Eye...page 297 of the Overlook hardcover.).

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

AFAIK:

Phalli if derived from Latin "phallus"

Phalloi if derived from Greek "phallos"

Phalluses according to modern English usage

Feel free to correct me; I'm always happy to engage in phallology.

I've seen phallus and phalli used. I always thought the latter to be plural. Only time I've ever seen phalloi used is by the infamous Solo.

[Darth Richard II]

Vague slightly off topic comment. People talking about how different things make them uncomfortable, I have an absolute meltdown whenever any animal comes to harm in my fiction. Torture and mass slaughter and uber violence, sure. Kick a cat and I'm upset for days.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Vague slightly off topic comment. People talking about how different things make them uncomfortable, I have an absolute meltdown whenever any animal comes to harm in my fiction. Torture and mass slaughter and uber violence, sure. Kick a cat and I'm upset for days.

Yea, its sometimes the littlest thing that throws you for a whirl. What's hardest to me is when its written as POV. And regardless of the atrocity, if its well written, it can really have a huge effect. Hell, all the shit Sansa a goes through is enough to make you have a breakdown. Its why her storyline intrigues me so much. Its just one thing after another. But, as of Dance she's starting to use those horrors as motivation. I'm excited to see where she ends up.

[Yersinia]

As a father the scenes with children in any books are the absolute worst for me, I find it harder to read about a beaten child than a dismembered adult!

Since I became a parent, I find scenes where awful things happen to children more disturbing than anything else, provided that the children are convincingly depicted.

Before I had kids, it was cruelty to animals that really got to me.

What you find "too grim" is extremely dependent on your own personal feelings and experiences. I can't imagine that people would be able to reach much of a concensus about this.

[SeanF]

I find Chiswick's account of gang-raping the Innkeep's daughter, and murdering her brother, in ACOK far more disturbing than pages of graphic violence, simply because it's so jocular; an old soldier recounting a jolly adventure on his travels.