Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Did he know they would kill Robert? He only knew about the incest, nothing more. If he believed his life to be in danger then he should known Robert to be in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 What does the law say about abandoning your king and brother to die? You mean like Renly did? Stannis left the city long before it was known that there was any threat to Robert. Renly on the other hand abandoned his king and brother Stannis. And he abandoned Ned Stark. Renly's support could have been the difference in the whole thing. He could easily have told Ned to sit on the truth for a while so he could get the backing of House Tyrell, and maneuver Stannis into naming him heir anyway, so Margaery would still be a queen. Renly was really short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 You mean like Renly did? Stannis left the city long before it was known that there was any threat to Robert. Renly on the other hand abandoned his king and brother Stannis. And he abandoned Ned Stark. Renly's support could have been the difference in the whole thing. He could easily have told Ned to sit on the truth for a while so he could get the backing of House Tyrell, and maneuver Stannis into naming him heir anyway, so Margaery would still be a queen. Renly was really short-sighted. Stannis was never Renlys King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 If he believed his life to be in danger then he should known Robert to be in danger. Not exactly. Stannis would be in danger because he knows and would tell Robert. But the Lannisters will kill him before he gets a chance to blab. Therefore...Robert is not in danger, because Stannis won't live to tell him. And at that point there was nobody else to tell him. As long as Robert was ignorant of the truth, he was relatively safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Stannis was never Renlys King. Yes he was. As soon as Robert died, Stannis was the rightful king, and Renly knew it. But his solutions to the problem were 1) lie and let Joff be king but take control of him, or 2) proclaim himself king instead. Renly can't proclaim himself king unless he's challenging Joff, Tommen and Myrcella's legitimacy. Therefore, yes he did abandon his king. Crowned or not, his loyalty should have been to his brother as the rightful butt to occupy the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 If he believed his life to be in danger then he should known Robert to be in danger. She didn't kill Robert for the last eight years or something (don't know how old Tommen is exactly) since her last child was born, maybe he did not think the Lannisters would go that far so fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 You mean like Renly did. Or Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 You mean like Renly did? Stannis left the city long before it was known that there was any threat to Robert. Nope, Renly only fled after Robert was already finished and Ned abandoned all reason thus there was nothing more he could do. In contrast, Stannis fled while there was still time in which he could have been saved. If the argument is that Stannis thought his life was in danger then the fact he should have been aware that Robert's life is in the same amount of danger. In fact, his fleeing would only work to increase the danger against Robert. Renly on the other hand abandoned his king and brother Stannis. Stannis wasn't his king and Stannis had ditched everyone already beforehand. And he abandoned Ned Stark. Renly's support could have been the difference in the whole thing. He could easily have told Ned to sit on the truth Renly only abandons Ned after Ned refuses to use any strategy against the Lannisters. Told Ned to sit on what truth? Only Renly offers is the means to ensure how Robert's will is followed and Ned is named regent. Ned instead blows him off to allow Cersei to gain the upper hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Yes he was. As soon as Robert died, Stannis was the rightful king, and Renly knew it No he didn't. Renly is pretty clear on his thoughts on Stannis' story. Renly was convinced that Joffrey was the heir, not Stannis. Not exactly. Stannis would be in danger because he knows and would tell Robert. But the Lannisters will kill him before he gets a chance to blab. Therefore...Robert is not in danger, because Stannis won't live to tell him. And at that point there was nobody else to tell him. As long as Robert was ignorant of the truth, he was relatively safe. If he thought that the Lannisters killed the Hand of the King for finding out he truth then it is pretty obvious that Roberts life is also in danger. He cowardly chose to ignore his obligation to his brother and King and keep the 'truth' to himself. Obviously it is no coincidence that the person who benefits from the Robert dying without knowing the truth is Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Not exactly. Stannis would be in danger because he knows and would tell Robert. But the Lannisters will kill him before he gets a chance to blab. Therefore...Robert is not in danger, because Stannis won't live to tell him. And at that point there was nobody else to tell him. As long as Robert was ignorant of the truth, he was relatively safe. Only Stannis isn't where they can get him, thus making it so if they want to keep their secret safe that the best tactic is killing Robert. Otherwise they are always a raven or a messenger away from their cover being blown. So if anything Stannis made it so his brother and king became a target. She didn't kill Robert for the last eight years or something (don't know how old Tommen is exactly) since her last child was born, maybe he did not think the Lannisters would go that far so fast. Their secret was on the edge of being blown during those eight years until now. Yes he was. As soon as Robert died, Stannis was the rightful king, and Renly knew it. But his solutions to the problem were 1) lie and let Joff be king but take control of him, Renly didn't believe Stannis' incest claims nor know of them until after leaving KL and crowning himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 If he thought that the Lannisters killed the Hand of the King for finding out he truth then it is pretty obvious that Roberts life is also in danger. He cowardly chose to ignore his obligation to his brother and King and keep the 'truth' to himself. Obviously it is no coincidence that the person who benefits from the Robert dying without knowing the truth is Stannis. After he found out the truth, yes, but so far he was safe as long as he didn't know anything. I agree self preservation played a role for Stannis, but I disagree with your notion that Stannis let Robert die to become king himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 After he found out the truth, yes, but so far he was safe as long as he didn't know anything. I agree self preservation played a role for Stannis, but I disagree with your notion that Stannis let Robert die to become king himself. Why would the Lannister take that risk? Robert would always be just a raven or messenger away from being told the secret if they believe that Stannis knows and they cannot reach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 What does the law say about burning your nephew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Why would the Lannister take that risk? Robert would always be just a raven or messenger away from being told the secret if they believe that Stannis knows and they cannot reach him. Robert was save for the last six or eight years or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 What does the law say about burning your nephew Stannis didn't, did he break the law with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Robert was save for the last six or eight years or something. Their secret wasn't at the risk of spilling out in the last six or eight years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max of the Magic Friends Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Nope, Renly only fled after Robert was already finished and Ned abandoned all reason thus there was nothing more he could do. In contrast, Stannis fled while there was still time in which he could have been saved. If the argument is that Stannis thought his life was in danger then the fact he should have been aware that Robert's life is in the same amount of danger. In fact, his fleeing would only work to increase the danger against Robert. If he thought that the Lannisters killed the Hand of the King for finding out he truth then it is pretty obvious that Roberts life is also in danger. He cowardly chose to ignore his obligation to his brother and King and keep the 'truth' to himself. Obviously it is no coincidence that the person who benefits from the Robert dying without knowing the truth is Stannis. The reason that Jon Arryn was killed, as far as Stannis knew, was because he knew about the incest. The only other person to know about that incest, as far as Stannis knew, was Stannis himself. So if the only reason that people are being killed off is because of their knowledge of Cersei's secret, why would he assume that Robert was in imminent, mortal danger? The Lannisters (and Stannis believed that it was the Lannisters behind it, at this point) had been content to let Robert rule without challenge for 16 years - what would make now any different? Stannis could have told his brother, and yes, if Robert chose to believe him then the entire conspiracy would have dissolved right away... if Robert believed him, and that's a pretty big if. Robert had ignored Stannis bringing charges against people in his council before, had always made his dislike and distrust of his brother perfectly clear, and even Stannis himself is aware of how self-serving the truth would seem if he was told it. The likelihood of Stannis being taken seriously would no doubt seem quite slim, from his perspective, and what would it accomplish if he tried? He would almost certainly be killed, and Robert would likely also die, to ensure he'd never grow suspicious. If there had been a good chance of Robert believing Stannis, then it would have been unjustified for him to leave. If there was a reasonable suspicion that the Lannisters were eager to kill off people in the capital other than for direct, unquestionable knowledge of the allegations of incest, then it would have been unjustified for him to leave. If Stannis had any ability to stop the conspiracy on his own, with the resources he currently had in the capital, even if he was not believed, then it would have been unjustified for him to leave. None of these were the case. The smartest tactical move for him at this point was to retreat, build his strength, wait for the right moment, and allow Robert to remain alive and unharmed by being ignorant. It's worth noting that, if it hadn't been for Ned Stark's investigation, Robert really wouldn't have been killed - it was the exact second that the Lannisters thought the truth would get out that they made their move, and not a moment sooner. Does this not prove that Stannis' assumption was correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three-eyed monkey Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 He is not lying, he is admitting. He is telling Davos exactly what he did. He WAS still in bed, no lie, and his hands were spotless when he woke up. He obviously checked. He is ashamed so he doesn't proudly proclaim it of course. You can only proudly proclaim things if you feel a bit of pride or honestly believe you ought to feel pride. Instead he is babbling senslessly and making half assed excuses like someone who feels guilty. You will notice that this monolouge is a bit different from the way Stannis usually communicates, whatever you think he is talking about. He is clearly emotional and shaken. I fail to see any possibility for doubt what he is trying to tell Davos. He murdered his own brother from his bed. ^ this as well with the fact that he was still in bed when the attack should be made makes it quite clear he knows Renly will die. No. He is not admitting it, he is puzzling it out after the fact. He is shaken, because he can't fully understand how he killed Renly in a dream. The dream seemed so real he thought it was real, but his hands had no blood and Devan could attest to the fact he had been in his tent all the time, so all reason suggested to Stannis that it couldn't be real. Yet Renly was dead. Murdered in his tent just as Stannis had dreamed. He is shook because he doesn't understand what happened, not because he knew what would happen before it happened. Why would that leave him shook? He tells Davos that his troops were fretting, he should have been armoured and ahorse, he knew Renly would attack at the break of day. He was clearly expecting battle. He knew that if Mel's vision was right then he would win the greater part of Renly's host, but there is not a single line in the books that suggests he knew how. He is honest with Davos about why he has "converted" to the Red God. He is honest with Davos about his feelings towards his "magic sword." Why not straight up tell him about the shadow baby? He was in bed when Renly was killed, true, but you guys make it sound like he was having a nice lie-in because he already knew Renly was dead. I find it far more likely that he was still in bed because he was locked in a sorcery-induced dream while his shadow was killing Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The reason that Jon Arryn was killed, as far as Stannis knew, was because he knew about the incest. The only other person to know about that incest, as far as Stannis knew, was Stannis himself. So if the only reason that people are being killed off is because of their knowledge of Cersei's secret, why would he assume that Robert was in imminent, mortal danger? The Lannisters (and Stannis believed that it was the Lannisters behind it, at this point) had been content to let Robert rule without challenge for 16 years - what would make now any different? Stannis could have told his brother, and yes, if Robert chose to believe him then the entire conspiracy would have dissolved right away... if Robert believed him, and that's a pretty big if. Robert had ignored Stannis bringing charges against people in his council before, had always made his dislike and distrust of his brother perfectly clear, and even Stannis himself is aware of how self-serving the truth would seem if he was told it. The likelihood of Stannis being taken seriously would no doubt seem quite slim, from his perspective, and what would it accomplish if he tried? He would almost certainly be killed, and Robert would likely also die, to ensure he'd never grow suspicious. If there was a reasonable suspicion that the Lannisters were eager to kill off people in the capital other than for direct, unquestionable knowledge of the allegations of incest, then it would have been unjustified for him to leave. If Stannis had any ability to stop the conspiracy on his own, with the resources he currently had in the capital, even if he was not believed, then it would have been unjustified for him to leave. None of these were the case. The smartest tactical move for him at this point was to retreat, build his strength, wait for the right moment, and allow Robert to remain alive and unharmed by being ignorant. It's worth noting that, if it hadn't been for Ned Stark's investigation, Robert really wouldn't have been killed - it was the exact second that the Lannisters thought the truth would get out that they made their move, and not a moment sooner. Does this not prove that Stannis' assumption was correct? Totally agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The reason that Jon Arryn was killed, as far as Stannis knew, was because he knew about the incest. The only other person to know about that incest, as far as Stannis knew, was Stannis himself. So if the only reason that people are being killed off is because of their knowledge of Cersei's secret, why would he assume that Robert was in imminent, mortal danger? Because they already killed the Hand to keep the secret. The Lannisters had also allowed Stannis to live for the last sixteen years thus why does he fear for his life? The law and duty isn't voided if it is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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