Stannis doesn't 'desire' to be the king?

[three-eyed monkey]

Double post.

[John Doe]

  
No. He is not admitting it, he is puzzling it out after the fact. He is shaken, because he can't fully understand how he killed Renly in a dream. The dream seemed so real he thought it was real, but his hands had no blood and Devan could attest to the fact he had been in his tent all the time, so all reason suggested to Stannis that it couldn't be real. Yet Renly was dead. Murdered in his tent just as Stannis had dreamed. He is shook because he doesn't understand what happened, not because he knew what would happen before it happened. Why would that leave him shook?

He tells Davos that his troops were fretting, he should have been armoured and ahorse, he knew Renly would attack at the break of day. He was clearly expecting battle. He knew that if Mel's vision was right then he would win the greater part of Renly's host, but there is not a single line in the books that suggests he knew how. He is honest with Davos about why he has "converted" to the Red God. He is honest with Davos about his feelings towards his "magic sword." Why not straight up tell him about the shadow baby?

He was in bed when Renly was killed, true, but you guys make it sound like he was having a nice lie-in because he already knew Renly was dead. I find it far more likely that he was still in bed because he was locked in a sorcery-induced dream while his shadow was killing Renly.

Agreed again. Stannis is really not the person to lie like this to Davos, people are making up stuff here.

[John Doe]

The Lannisters had also allowed Stannis to live for the last sixteen years thus why does he fear for his life?

He said it in his post.

[Minsc]

He said it in his post.

 

The point being if you going to make the argument well Robert was allowed to live 16 years so why now is he in danger the same is true for Stannis.

 

If they are killing to keep the incest a secret then it is only logical to assume they will target Robert as he is the one they need to keep it a secret from.  There is no reason to assume they will just wait see if Stannis warns him or not.  Especially, him finding out is a major threat to him while Stannis knowing is less of one if Robert is dead.

[pettes]

Stannis didn't, did he break the law with it?

Just thinking about it until Davos feels its needed to send him away means that Stannis indeed wants to have the throne.

[John Doe]

 

The point being if you going to make the argument well Robert was allowed to live 16 years so why now is he in danger the same is true for Stannis.

Stannis found out about the incest, Robert did not. That's the difference. Robert was allowed to live so far, so there was no reason to assume he would die now since it was not Robert who found out about it, but Stannis.

[Max of the Magic Friends]

 

Because they already killed the Hand to keep the secret.  The Lannisters had also allowed Stannis to live for the last sixteen years thus why does he fear for his life?

 

The law and duty isn't voided if it is difficult.

 

The only reason Stannis' life was in danger was because he knew about the incest. As you said, they had only killed the Hand to keep the secret. The reason why Stannis thought his life was in immediate danger seems clear enough. So why assume that Robert, who knows nothing about this incest, is in danger? That knowledge is the only reason why anyone was killed.

 

You are entirely right, law and duty are not voided in the least when they are difficult. You shouldn't try to follow that duty, however, in a manner that is all but guaranteed to get both you and the person you are trying to protect killed - which is what telling Robert would have done, since he would likely not be believed. The far safer option that was far more likely to work was to build up forces at Dragonstone and prepare for the moment to strike. It would have worked too, if it weren't for that meddling Ned.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

The only reason Stannis' life was in danger was because he knew about the incest. As you said, they had only killed the Hand to keep the secret. The reason why Stannis thought his life was in immediate danger seems clear enough. So why assume that Robert, who knows nothing about this incest, is in danger? That knowledge is the only reason why anyone was killed.

 

 

 

If Stannis thought his life was in danger then the Lannisters either need to kill him or Robert before Stannis can alert Robert to the truth. It is pretty simple logic. 

[Minsc]

Stannis found out about the incest, Robert did not. That's the difference. Robert was allowed to live so far, so there was no reason to assume he would die now since it was not Robert who found out about it, but Stannis.

 

Why? Tell me why the Lannisters would risk leaving Robert alive thus allowing the possibility of Stannis telling him at anytime with a raven or a messanger?

 

When Cersei discovers Ned knows who does she kill to keep the secret first?  Was it Ned or was it Robert?  Answer: It was Robert and that was even when Ned was more easily in their grasps.

 

If Stannis doesn't think Robert to be in danger while he thinks himself to be in danger then Stannis is a self-absorbed moron which admittedly fits his character.

 

 

You are entirely right, law and duty are not voided in the least when they are difficult. You shouldn't try to follow that duty, however, in a manner that is all but guaranteed to get both you and the person you are trying to protect killed - which is what telling Robert would have done, since he would likely not be believed. The far safer option that was far more likely to work was to build up forces at Dragonstone and prepare for the moment to strike. It would have worked too, if it weren't for that meddling Ned.

 

It would have worked because up until Ned they didn't know the secret was out.  Once they did they immediately attacked Robert.  Building up his forces at Dragonstone serves no purpose unless Stannis was planning for war against the Lannisters.  Something that would really only occur after Robert's death.

[three-eyed monkey]

Agreed again. Stannis is really not the person to lie like this to Davos, people are making up stuff here.

Totally. And another thing, there is no way Stannis knew Mel was capable of such feats of sorcery at the time. He knew she had power, he witnessed that in how his men reacted to her, and he was willing to explore just how much power she had. But at that stage he did not know she was capable of creating something like the shadow assassin.

The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships . . . and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.

[pettes]

Didnt they plan to kill Robert in the melee at the hands tourney long before Ned found out?

[Wavey Sauce]

 

The only reason Stannis' life was in danger was because he knew about the incest. As you said, they had only killed the Hand to keep the secret. The reason why Stannis thought his life was in immediate danger seems clear enough. So why assume that Robert, who knows nothing about this incest, is in danger? That knowledge is the only reason why anyone was killed.

 

You are entirely right, law and duty are not voided in the least when they are difficult. You shouldn't try to follow that duty, however, in a manner that is all but guaranteed to get both you and the person you are trying to protect killed - which is what telling Robert would have done, since he would likely not be believed. The far safer option that was far more likely to work was to build up forces at Dragonstone and prepare for the moment to strike. It would have worked too, if it weren't for that meddling Ned.

 

You do know it was Little Finger and Lysa that actually killed Arryn right?????  (well and Pycelle let him die without trying to help at all, thinking he would gain favor from the Lannisters)  You are posting as if you dont know that.

 

Jaime and Cersei were wondering why he ended up dead.

 

Stannis assumed thats why he was killed, therefore he feared for his life. But nobody knew that Arryn knew anything

[Wavey Sauce]

He still burnt the gods, to a religious person this is a big offense especially considering that medieval society was much more religious than now. He also stripped his bannermen of their right to worship their gods. This alongside with Renlys murder, Stannis pondering on offering Edric and him sacrifiving thousands of lives on the Blackwater doesnt sound like a man who doesnt want to become king

 he burned wood

[Winter's Cold]

Stannis was afraid for his life. Therefore, he abandoned his duty to his brother and king. If he is dutiful why would he quit his position as master of ships and flee to dragonstone? 

[Max of the Magic Friends]

 

You do know it was Little Finger and Lysa that actually killed Arryn right?????  (well and Pycelle let him die without trying to help at all, thinking he would gain favor from the Lannisters)  You are posting as if you dont know that.

 

Jaime and Cersei were wondering why he ended up dead.

 

 

I'm aware, but Stannis was not, and I was attempting to write my answer based on his perspective and what he knew. Not us, as readers.

 

 

Why? Tell me why the Lannisters would risk leaving Robert alive thus allowing the possibility of Stannis telling him at anytime with a raven or a messanger?

 

 

Ravens would only reach Robert after going through Pycelle, their toadie. So far as Cersei and Stannis are concerned, Varys supports the Lannisters and has spies in every corner of the capital - how is a secret message meant to arrive undetected?

 

The reason the Lannisters would leave Robert alive is because they would be made much weaker if he wasn't. If they were to kill Robert, it would be to ensure Joffrey is seated on the throne: Joffrey who is not yet a man, which would mean a regency would be needed, all while Tywin Lannister and all their armies are on the other side of the continent, unable to help, and armies that are potentially loyal to Renly or Stannis are right next door. Why assassinate Robert now, creating doubt and suspicion, when they could just wait for a worn-out old sod to drink and whore himself to death? And why do it while too other, highly threatening brothers of the king are still alive - wouldn't the smartest strategy be to eliminate these enemies before they made their big move? If Robert suddenly grew a pair of eyes and noticed that his "children" weren't his, they could kill him then without much of an issue, seeing that virtually everyone of importance, including the head of all military forces in the city, were Lannister supporters - leaving him alive for now was a low risk with a high reward.

 

 

If Stannis thought his life was in danger then the Lannisters either need to kill him or Robert before Stannis can alert Robert to the truth. It is pretty simple logic. 

 

Killing Robert to hide the truth would be a rather circuitous route, don't you think? There is exactly, and only one person in King's Landing (as far as Stannis knows) that is aware of the incest, and the king is completely ignorant of it. The obvious solution, if I were a Lannister, would be to kill the man who knows, not the king who does not know and will almost certainly not believe the truth. The possibility is there, but it is distinctly unlikely compared to the obvious choice.

 

 

 

Building up his forces at Dragonstone serves no purpose unless Stannis was planning for war against the Lannisters.  Something that would really only occur after Robert's death.

 

Not necessarily. It would have been perfectly possible for Stannis to use his available troops to fight on Robert's behalf, after finding some way of alerting him to the truth. Furthermore, we cannot ignore that it is not military troops alone that Stannis might be interested in finding: Robert's bastards, if presented, would greatly help him to prove the truth of his claims. Seeing that he was willing to beseige Storm's End to find Edric, Stannis was clearly aware of that. Retreating to Dragonstone offers him time to plan, time to think, time to prepare, and time to act, none of which he would have at King's Landing, where the daggers would be at his throat.

 

Something that you pointed out, rightfully, is that Robert was still under a risk even if Stannis did not tell him. But that is not in question: without a doubt there would still be a risk, the question is simply whether there would be more of a risk in not telling him. It seems to me that Stannis' options, from his perspective, were limited to one of three:

 

1. Remain in King's Landing, and don't tell Robert.

- If I do this, then I will die.

- Robert will eventually die as well, and the throne will unjustly pass to Joffrey without issue.

 

2. Remain in King's Landing, and tell Robert.

- Robert will not believe me: he has not listened to me before, when I accused others of corruption, it would seem highly suspect when I don't have proof, Robert doesn't like me, and he is very willing to shut his eyes to things he doesn't want to see.

- If I do this, then I will die.

- Robert will definitely be assassinated soon after, to prevent him from growing suspicious. Or, he'll be assassinated first, in which case I will even more certainly die.

 

3. I don't tell Robert, and instead go to Dragonstone at once.

- Assassins cannot reach me here.

- It will give me the time I need to gather my strength and evidence, thus enabling me to have a much better chance of saving Robert.

- If the Lannister's are paranoid enough, they might kill Robert. 

- But telling him ensures that he will die - at least this gives a fair possibility of exposing the truth and helping him.

 

I don't claim that Option 3 is perfect. I don't claim that it was ideal. But it was the best choice he had based on the information he knew, and it was the only one that gave Robert any chance of survival at all. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Killing Robert to hide the truth would be a rather circuitous route, don't you think? There is exactly, and only one person in King's Landing (as far as Stannis knows) that is aware of the incest, and the king is completely ignorant of it. The obvious solution, if I were a Lannister, would be to kill the man who knows, not the king who does not know and will almost certainly not believe the truth. The possibility is there, but it is distinctly unlikely compared to the obvious choice.

 

 

If Stannis thought the Lannisters were aware that he knew their secret and they could not shut him up then the next option is to kill Robert and proclaim Joffrey King rather than wait for Stannis to reveal the secret some other way and have Robert execute them.

 

If Stannis genuinely thought his life was in danger then he would be an idiot to not think his brother (his king) was also in danger.

 

Doing nothing for so long benefits primarily him as, if they really are bastards, then Robert is unable to remarry and create legitimate heirs of his own.

[Wavey Sauce]

So if any high lord sent a message to KL you think Pycelle would deliver the scroll with a broken seal?

[Boarsbane]

There is no more possible evidence to be found, there is no DNA test to be had and sitting around and moping isn't going to change that. If he was going to tell Robert he would have, instead he sat on Dragonstone and waited for the inevitable and then told everyone what he had discovered, as if they are any more likely to believe him than Robert. And yes he had to know they would off Robert and soon, Renly was plotting to replace Cersei and Cersei knows Robert doesn't like her. Still even if he didn't think Robert would consider the notion he could of at least tried to work with his other brother, who clearly wasn't a Lannister toady, or even Ned but he was jealous and resentful of the two for idiotic and petty reasons so he doesn't.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Im kind of sure he does, despite his protests to contrary.

 

Truth be told I think its more Dany, who doesn't really want throne but sees it as duty..

[Minsc]

Ravens would only reach Robert after going through Pycelle, their toadie. So far as Cersei and Stannis are concerned, Varys supports the Lannisters and has spies in every corner of the capital - how is a secret message meant to arrive undetected?

 

Pycelle isn't going to stop every letter, nor does that address the issue that Stannis could just send a letter by messenger to be delivered by Davos to Robert.  Stannis could plot to reach out to other lords in have them assist in contacting Robert.  There is reason for Stannis to believe Varys supports the Lannisters while Robert is alive.  Cersei doesn't care as she doesn't know of his snooping.

 

 

The reason the Lannisters would leave Robert alive is because they would be made much weaker if he wasn't. If they were to kill Robert, it would be to ensure Joffrey is seated on the throne: Joffrey who is not yet a man, which would mean a regency would be needed, all while Tywin Lannister and all their armies are on the other side of the continent, unable to help, and armies that are potentially loyal to Renly or Stannis are right next door.

 

Tywin can easily help as we see in the books.  Moreover, if they work fast enough in killing Robert before Stannis can act then the fact is that they can possibly count on the Starks and Tullys to assist them as they would still believe that Joffrey is Robert's son.  So have Joff's regency gives them authority over them.

 

 

Not necessarily. It would have been perfectly possible for Stannis to use his available troops to fight on Robert's behalf, after finding some way of alerting him to the truth. Furthermore, we cannot ignore that it is not military troops alone that Stannis might be interested in finding: Robert's bastards, if presented, would greatly help him to prove the truth of his claims. Seeing that he was willing to beseige Storm's End to find Edric, Stannis was clearly aware of that. Retreating to Dragonstone offers him time to plan, time to think, time to prepare, and time to act, none of which he would have at King's Landing, where the daggers would be at his throat.

 

Stannis didn't look for shit while on Dragonstone besides mercenaries to fight for him.  If he had sent a letter to Renly asking if he can take Edric to Dragonstone for a companion for Shireen Renly probably would have shrugged and had Penrose hand him over.  Stannis sat at Dragonstone for around a year thus he had plenty of time to plan and act before Robert's death.