Stannis doesn't 'desire' to be the king?

[LordStoneheart]

:huh:

I'm guessing he only saw the Jon part and assumed you were a man. :P

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

Some people's assumption is more like a fan fiction rather than the true. You can believe or don't believe whatever you want, since it isn't in the books I don't think that really change anything.

Yes, but isn't the purpose of this thread to discuss whether or not Stannis desires to be king? And thus, by extension, whether or not he order Mel to kill Renly or not? As we can't see inside his mind, we have to make assumptions based on the text rather than relying on the text to tell us everything. 

[Associate Maester]

What does the law say about kinslaying?
You can't say end justifies the means and also say that you can't break the law together ; )

I don't think there are any laws persay about kin-slaying. It seems more taboo rather than a legal one. Maekar was also called a kin-slayer and nothing happened to him etc.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes, but isn't the purpose of this thread to discuss whether or not Stannis desires to be king? And thus, by extension, whether or not he order Mel to kill Renly or not? As we can't see inside his mind, we have to make assumptions based on the text rather than relying on the text to tell us everything. 

How you can make an assumption about the text when everything in the text disagree with you? In the text Stannis is clear about no wanting to be King, it is clear that he didn't knew what Mel was going to do but learn it after Renly was dead, it is clear that Mel had already disobeyed him and did something without his permission. So how you can make an assumption which disagrees with the text?

 

I'm guessing he only saw the Jon part and assumed you were a man. :P

I mean that I didn't understand what he meant.

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

How you can make an assumption about the text when everything in the text disagree with you? In the text Stannis is clear about no wanting to be King, it is clear that he didn't knew what Mel was going to do but learn it after Renly was dead, it is clear that Mel had already disobeyed him and did something without his permission. So how you can make an assumption which disagrees with the text?

Where does it say that he didn't know Renly would be killed? Or that Mel disobeyed him? Have I forgotten something?

[Voramir Glover]

Where does it say that he didn't know Renly would be killed? Or that Mel disobeyed him? Have I forgotten something?

 

He is saying that to Davos shortly after Renlys death. That he was sleeping while it happened and that his hands were clean. He didn't know what was going to happen, nor did he plan to kill Renly.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 

Where does it say that he didn't know Renly would be killed?

Where does it say that he knew that Mel was going to kill Renly? We know that he was sleeping when it happened. We are talking about a man who actually was discussing the possibility to burn his nephew, somehow I cannot see why he wouldn't had admitted it.

Or that Mel disobeyed him? 

Mel sacrifised Lord Guncer Sunglass without Stannis permission.

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

 

He is saying that to Davos shortly after Renlys death. That he was sleeping while it happened and that his hands were clean. He didn't know what was going to happen, nor did he plan to kill Renly.

Thanks for answering. That does make more sense to me, I'll reread that bit and then make a judgment on whether I think Stannis was actually behind it or not :).

[wefollowthecomet]

This man has the right of it. If we're to judge a person's motivations, we should base that judgement on what is present in the books. The books say that Stannis is obsessed with duty and only fights for the throne out of a sense of duty. Going against this and claiming some criminal mastermind with a murderous desire for power lurks behind the mask that is Stannis has no basis.

The books say Jon is Ned Stark's bastard, doesn't make it true

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

This man has the right of it. If we're to judge a person's motivations, we should base that judgement on what is present in the books. The books say that Stannis is obsessed with duty and only fights for the throne out of a sense of duty. Going against this and claiming some criminal mastermind with a murderous desire for power lurks behind the mask that is Stannis has no basis.

 

"The books say"? The books give us numerous, limited in their knowledge and biased, points of view. Not an omniscient narrator and not one sitting inside Stannis' head, either. So, who exactly in the books say that "Stannis is obsessed with duty and only fights for the throne out of a sense of duty"? Besides Stannis and his PR team themselves, that is? Is there a Stannis POV chapter somewhere, which would justify claiming with such certainty that Stannis' motivation is so and so?

[Bungle]

Stannis didn't talk to his brother about the incest for an obvious reason: he was not close to Robert. It's pretty clear in the books that they didn't have a good relationship. Therefore, if Stannis told him the truth, Robert probably would think the same as you.

If he had supported Renly or Robb, he would be betraying his own sense of duty, and that's make no sense for a character like Stannis.

And yes, he doesn't have to be king to fight the Others, but if I'm not mistaken, Melisandre never spoke clearly about the major threat before having her visions about the North (ASOS).

[Winter's Cold]

Stannis didn't talk to his brother about the incest for an obvious reason: he was not close to Robert. It's pretty clear in the books that they didn't have a good relationship. Therefore, if Stannis told him the truth, Robert probably would think the same as you.

If he had supported Renly or Robb, he would be betraying his own sense of duty, and that's make no sense for a character like Stannis.

And yes, he doesn't have to be king to fight the Others, but if I'm not mistaken, Melisandre never spoke clearly about the major threat before having her visions about the North (ASOS).

 

So he did not do his duty because he would not be believed? Instead he waited until Robert and Ned Stark had died to send letters to lords even less likely to believe him than Robert? This just means Stannis is not dutiful.

 

By killing Renly, Stannis helped himself and the Lannisters. He then failed at Blackwater, so his selfishness led to loss for the stormlands as well. 

[John Doe]

 

So he did not do his duty because he would not be believed? Instead he waited until Robert and Ned Stark had died to send letters to lords even less likely to believe him than Robert? This just means Stannis is not dutiful.

 

By killing Renly, Stannis helped himself and the Lannisters. He then failed at Blackwater, so his selfishness led to loss for the stormlands as well. S

I agree that self preservation played a role here. But I do think he is more dutiful than any other claimant on the throne.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Stannis has a pretty narrow minded idea of duty, and to me it does seem to make something 'his duty' when it suits his interest. For example, he sees it as his duty to become king. But you could also say he has a duty to the people of the 7 kingdoms to end the war quickly, by allying with Robb, or stepping down for Renly (not saying he had to, but he had the option)

[three-eyed monkey]

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down at his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean." Davos, ACoK.

Stannis did not know about the shadow baby. He expected Renly to attack at break of day. He went to Storms End because Mel told him he would win the greater part of Renly's host if he went there, she had seen it in her fires. She also told him he would lose to Renly at the Blackwater, but explained that as an alternative future, so Stannis wen to Storm's End. He did not know how he would win Renly's bannermen but he did expect battle.

As to the Op. Personally, I think it is more than duty that drives Stannis. He is a complicated character, who has lived in Robert's shadow and been pissed on all his life, as he sees it. I think he puts out a lot of PR about being truthful and dutiful and just, like a good king should be, but to me his most defining characteristic is that he is utterly calculated. Readers, and characters, who claim he would never tell a lie are just swallowing the PR. There are many examples in the books that prove otherwise. He does not believe in gods and is only using Mel because he thinks she has power. He knows lightbringer is nothing special but keeps up the magic sword pretence anyway. And don't think he didn't know about the Mance switch.

[John Doe]

Stannis has a pretty narrow minded idea of duty, and to me it does seem to make something 'his duty' when it suits his interest. For example, he sees it as his duty to become king. But you could also say he has a duty to the people of the 7 kingdoms to end the war quickly, by allying with Robb, or stepping down for Renly (not saying he had to, but he had the option)

Renly was behind him in the line of succession and Robb tried to become independent, Stannis made the right decision.

[khal drogon]

Thanks for answering. That does make more sense to me, I'll reread that bit and then make a judgment on whether I think Stannis was actually behind it or not :).

He feels guilty for Renly's death. That kinda proves it.

[John Doe]

He feels guilty for Renly's death. That kinda proves it.

He says he did not kill him. That disproves it.

[Bobby b's bobby]

He feels guilty for Renly's death. That kinda proves it.

For me it could go either way I mean if i caused my brothers death even without meaning it I'd be guilty if i remember right melisandra sees Renly's death or stannis winning a great victory I think he went on that and realises she saw Renly's death and he caused it thus guilt though you could easily be right and he knew renly would die via his hand and he'd gain from it and now feels guilty idk.

[khal drogon]

For me it could go either way I mean if i caused my brothers death even without meaning it I'd be guilty if i remember right melisandra sees Renly's death or stannis winning a great victory I think he went on that and realises she saw Renly's death and he caused it thus guilt though you could easily be right and he knew renly would die via his hand and he'd gain from it and now feels guilty idk.

I would have believed this if a shadow assassin with his face did not kill Renly. And I find it hard to believe he had some kinda sexual relationship with Mel.