"Why are you so angry?" Anita Sarkeesian, Gamergate, Sad Puppies, and online harassment

[eyenon15]

 
It's fine to disagree with Sarkeesian, but Hayyoth and others seem to think she's as bad as the people threatening to rape and kill her.
 
What specific assertions by Sarkeesian do you find to be ridiculous and shitty?

I get the impression that they were claiming that the collection of people involved on both sides of this issue are just as bad as each other, I didn't get the impression that the moral judgment was directed only at Anita or death threaters.

And for why I think her work is awful, that's for another thread.

[DanteGabriel]

And for why I think her work is awful, that's for another thread.

 

No? You don't think you should be bothered to enumerate the reasons you think Anita Sarkeesian's videos are ridiculous and shitty in a thread about Anita Sarkeesian?

[eyenon15]

 
No? You don't think you should be bothered to enumerate the reasons you think Anita Sarkeesian's videos are ridiculous and shitty in a thread about Anita Sarkeesian?

Nope, been there, done that.

If there's a thread dedicated to the actual merit of what she says in her videos I may chime in.

[KiDisaster]

 
I've watched all her videos, some more than once. Where does she equate "feminism" with "pacifism"?

She doesn't, I don't think. Though she does seem to look at violence as an inherently masculine thing. Which is the one point I've always really disagreed with her on. I don't see violence as inherently masculine any more than say, crying is inherently feminine. We have, at least in Western culture, assigned those things those roles but they aren't inherent.

To say a woman in a video game or film who's engaging in violence is displaying masculine traits or 'acting like a man' has always just made me think of a little boy being told to stop 'acting like a girl' for crying. I don't know if you can really equate those things, (violence and crying are obviously not in any way comparable in terms of their effects) but that's where my mind goes. In terms of reinforcing the gender roles that I thought we were meant to be trying to move past.

Violence is an unfortunately natural part of humanity (and of the animal kingdom in general really). The difference in our culture is that while it's discouraged in girls (and rightly so) it is all too often encouraged in boys. But this is getting into toxic masculinity which could have a whole thread to itself really.

So yeah, my long-winded way of saying I guess I can kinda see why someone would think she's equating the two? Even if that's not her intention.

If any of what I said even made sense. Hopefully I got my meaning across properly.

[C.T. Phipps]

This is a really good example of what I mean. What are you fighting for exactly?

 

Social reform. A general change to society to be more equitable in terms of rights, cultures, and freedom. Social justice is, to me, fundamentally, a progressive movement for improving the lot of society by examining the assumptions which underlay it and work to alter them for the better.

 

Economic disparity, gay rights, feminism, religious freedom, anti-torture, and other elements are bedrocks of what I consider to be the movement.

 

 

I've watched all her videos, some more than once. Where does she equate "feminism" with "pacifism"?

 

Further, "female action heroes" is generally and in broad strokes a second wave feminist thing, while most feminist today are third wavers of some kind and will level a different kind of critique. The Witcher 2 is also the most sexist cesspit, ever. Any defence of that will make me laugh. Witcher 3 I have not yet played, but if any of the criticism I have read is true, then it's basically "well it's improved"  but from such a low level that it maybe beats what? GTA? Call of Duty? Even stuff like GTA5 at least have some feeble attempts to show that people who threaten and abuse women aren't nice people, while in the Witcher this is not at all as clearly delineated.

 

I actually wrote a pretty big post to you, [b]Lyanna Stark[/b] in the feminism thread which I was surprised you never responded to re: The Witcher 3. Also a follow up re: Deus Ex.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131038-feminism-distractingly-sexy-edition/page-12#entry7188040

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131038-feminism-distractingly-sexy-edition/page-12#entry7188070

 

Needless to say, I could also speak to you at length about the issues of the Witcher 2. Albeit, I wrote an article criticising it myself on my blog.

My opinion on it, however, was "Flawed but actually managed to make female character prominent, important, three-dimensional, fully-realized, and dealing with the horrific patriarchy of the setting."

 

As for Anita and violence, her True Grit video is the best one to reference. Where, basically, my opinion can be summarized as, "Everything you said I disagree with."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbiP3wxImAY

[Howdyphillip]

I also wanted to point out, that there really isn't two different sides to this. There is just a very vocal minority that was organized by people who harassed and threatened others and then there was everyone else.   

[Inigima]

I also wanted to point out, that there really isn't two different sides to this. There is just a very vocal minority that was organized by people who harassed and threatened others and then there was everyone else.   

Yes, thank you very much for making this point.

[eyenon15]

Most movements are started the same way.

[DanteGabriel]

Most movements are started the same way.

 

Assholes making death threats for mild critiques of their hobby?

[Wise Fool]

I don't have a dog in this fight, I think both groups are as batshit cra cra  as the other. On the one hand we have man children who think that video games are really really really important (and not time wasting diversions for children) and on the other frightbats who think manspreading on the NY subway system is an evil scourge of global significance. How can you not find the spectacle of these two groups slapping each other around anything but hilarious?

 

Yeah you do have a dog in this fight. The fact that you are trying so hard to equate the two shows which dog is yours, because this is an argument that only comes from one side.

 

When you say "Independent thinker? Moi? I'm a straight down the line Roman Catholic conservative, I'm as far removed from independent thought as you'll find in the western hemisphere" - yeah. Exactly. That's the point. You're not independent on this issue, and pretending you are is disingenuous and that's what DG was getting at.

 

I don't see two groups slapping each other around, I see one group of people attacking other people. Pretty simple, even a conservative can understand it. If you wanted to. You don't, so you won't.

[TrackerNeil]

 

Verily.

 

Along the same line, it's also worth noting that just because someone has sensible and valid critiques of Sarkeesian's video blogs it doesn't mean that they are NOT also a Gamergate member. 

 

Word.

 

In fact, the most insidious GGers are those who present rationally and dispassionately but who harbor the same misogynistic tendencies as their more outspoken brethren.

[eyenon15]

 
Assholes making death threats for mild critiques of their hobby?

No 1% extremely vocal minority + 99% followers.

[DanteGabriel]

No 1% extremely vocal minority + 99% followers.

 

So you think Gamergate is a movement? Towards what end are they moving? More ethical game journalism?

[C.T. Phipps]

The thing about Gamergate is that the 1% making the death threats and intimidation and so on was doing what we might call The Tyranny of the Minority in that by making the big stink they did, they hoped to silence critics of their hobby in the most direct and horrible manner possible. It's a tactic which drove a number of female voice actors, game designers, and more to severe and well-documented distress.

 

It's also a failure because the community, as a whole, seems to have rallied around Ms. Saarkesian.

 

It's also counter-productive because her videos are, simply put, not that good.

 

But the massive internet backdraft against her and bullying turned what would be a minor editorial piece into something covered by national media.

 

I'm just sorry she had to suffer for it.

[eyenon15]

 
Word.
 
In fact, the most insidious GGers are those who present rationally and dispassionately but who harbor the same misogynistic tendencies as their more outspoken brethren.

Well its entire possible, maybe even probable to think her videos are sub par and just bad and not be mysogynist, or sad puppy, or gamergater.
She was a fairly small deal before the gamergate death threats shot her to world stage stardom. So yeh, I don't think her videos on their own merit the heroic status they've been given.
They just aren't good work, they aren't even average work IMO
And honestly there are feminists that have done far greater work than her that deserve to be a magazines "most influential" people.

[Inigima]

eyenon,

If it were just "we don't think your videos are very good, here's why" then no one would have a problem with them. I said myself there's room for criticism. But that's not the situation we have. The situation we have is one in which some targets have felt compelled to flee their homes and go into hiding.

[eyenon15]

eyenon,

If it were just "we don't think your videos are very good, here's why" then no one would have a problem with them. I said myself there's room for criticism. But that's not the situation we have. The situation we have is one in which some targets have felt compelled to flee their homes and go into hiding.

Yeh, bad deal there I'm just making a point that shouldn't have to be made.
just because someone thinks Anita's work is trash doesn't equal secret mysogynist, gamergate, sad puppy, etc etc etc.

[C.T. Phipps]

Well its entire possible, maybe even probable to think her videos are sub par and just bad and not be mysogynist, or sad puppy, or gamergater.
She was a fairly small deal before the gamergate death threats shot her to world stage stardom. So yeh, I don't think her videos on their own merit the heroic status they've been given.
They just aren't good work, they aren't even average work IMO
And honestly there are feminists that have done far greater work than her that deserve to be a magazines "most influential" people.

 

The somewhat obvious nature of her videos, exp. "Marlene being beaten and killed in Double Dragon is bad.", aside, she gets her national attention because of weathering the epic **** storm of controversy she had to.

 

No one has ever patreoned a documentary solely about men fantasizing about having sex with me as a means of humiliating me but, if they did, I'd be hard pressed to say that wasn't harrassment worthy of attention.

 

And Ms. Saarkesian knuckled down and continued on.

Which DOES deserve credit.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

eyenon,

If it were just "we don't think your videos are very good, here's why" then no one would have a problem with them. I said myself there's room for criticism. But that's not the situation we have. The situation we have is one in which some targets have felt compelled to flee their homes and go into hiding.

 

Way to exaggerate! Sarkeesian is a public figure and is being treated the way all other media critics are treated online.

 

Remember that time when A. O. Scott wrote that bad movie review for the Times, and people threatened to rape him to death on twitter, made bomb threats and threatened mass shootings at his speaking events, made crappy Youtube videos alleging that he hadn't even watched the movies he reviews, and obsessed about how much his job paid him?

 

Oh wait, me neither. 

[DanteGabriel]

Yeh, bad deal there I'm just making a point that shouldn't have to be made.
just because someone thinks Anita's work is trash doesn't equal secret mysogynist, gamergate, sad puppy, etc etc etc.

 

I don't think anyone here has ever said "anyone who disagrees with Anita Sarkeesian is a rape-minded death-threat-making asshole" -- so I'm not sure the point really did have to be made. Or at least, it could have been made once, rather than your repeated reminders that you think Sarkeesian sucks (but won't say why) but you're totally not into making rape and death threats.