Is Ned spitting on Adoption?

[Bobby b's bobby]

Bad troll is bad

[LordStoneheart]

Ok so then to clarify all of you that are arguing against me are saying that if you currently have kids or were to ever have kids in the future and you raised them for decade or two. If you found out that they were not really your kids and you'd been a cuckhold that you'd tell them to go find their real dad because you're not him and then throw them out on the streets. That's what you're saying you'd do right? BTW This is a yes or no question, and if your answer is yes then I've got a follow up question for you "How is it that you don't see that you're a horrible person?". I'm guessing your answer to that will be "willful ignorance."

 
It's only a yes or no question because you are simplifying the situation to a degree that bears nearly no resemblance to text. You might as well ask why Ned didn't collect Robert's saliva and submit it to a labratory for DNA testing to know for sure.
 
If you want this question to really apply, how about mentioning that Robert cared jack shit about his children and questioned how he could have raised Joffrey to be so monstrous. Or ask yourself what Ned and Robert would say if you were to ask them what the word "adoption" means. Even if we were to play along with this nonsense situation of yours, it does not apply because the reason Cersei was married to Robert was to give him heirs to inherit the throne and the kingdom. By denying him heirs, Cersei took a giant golden lion shit on Robert's legacy. It doesn't matter if Robert understands the concept of adoption or not. He would not have allowed that stain on his honor and reputation to go unpunished.

Bad troll is bad

Agreed.

[~DarkHorse~]

Do you think maybe in a weird way Roose Bolton was kinder to his bastard son then Ned was to jon? I know that he only brought him into his house and asked the king to legitimize Ramsey because he needed an heir. But Robert was Ned's best friend, Robert didn't take his powers all that seriously and he totally owed ned for helping put him on the throne. If Ned wanted he could have asked Robert to Legitimize Jon Snow so that he didn't have to grow up with the shame of being a bastard and lesser than the other Stark children. Sure I know if Jon's father is Rhaegar that would technically make him Jon Targ not Jon Stark. But obviously you wouldn't bring that up and he'd just grow up as Jon stark. Just like if Rhaegar is his father then his bastard name should be Jon Waters not Jon Snow, but Ned doesn't have a problem with calling him Jon Snow. 

 

That would have pissed off his wife, wronging her even more. I don't think he would want to do that to Cat.

 

Also, if Rhaegar and Lyanna married then Jon would already be legitimate, even if no one can know so this would have influenced his attitude.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ok so then to clarify all of you that are arguing against me are saying that if you currently have kids or were to ever have kids in the future and you raised them for decade or two. If you found out that they were not really your kids and you'd been a cuckhold that you'd tell them to go find their real dad because you're not him and then throw them out on the streets. That's what you're saying you'd do right?

 

Hmm... no, it's not. Clearly, your reading skills weren't up to the task. Go back, don't hurry, actually read what people wrote, then reply. Take your time.

[Sly Wren]

 

So, if I understand you correctly, Joffrey would be analogous to santorum? That seems to fit pretty well.

Huh. This could also explain a lot about Joffrey. And definitely makes him unfit to rule--just in case all of the other reasons for his unfitness somehow failed to hold sway.

 

NO. Jupiter's Rooster, NO. 

:agree: This is my new favorite exclamation. And the perfect response.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Seriously 2/10 get on lord Arryns level put some effort in to your idiocy

[Darkstream]

Ok so then to clarify all of you that are arguing against me are saying that if you currently have kids or were to ever have kids in the future and you raised them for decade or two. If you found out that they were not really your kids and you'd been a cuckhold that you'd tell them to go find their real dad because you're not him and then throw them out on the streets. That's what you're saying you'd do right? BTW This is a yes or no question, and if your answer is yes then I've got a follow up question for you "How is it that you don't see that you're a horrible person?". I'm guessing your answer to that will be "willful ignorance."

No. I don't even know where you get this from.

Neds' actions are based on the fact that the heir to the throne is not the blood of the king, in a world where that is the main factor in deciding who the heir is. Not to mention that he tried to show mercy to the innocent children. (If Joffery could ever be considered innocent.)

[sweetsunray]

 

That would have pissed off his wife, wronging her even more. I don't think he would want to do that to Cat.

 

Also, if Rhaegar and Lyanna married then Jon would already be legitimate, even if no one can know so this would have influenced his attitude.

 

The only alternative to being Jon Snow, was say being raised as Jahaerys Targaryen by 3 bachelor men on some boat on the Rhoyne, without ever really knowing a home, family and siblings. At least he had a family life.

[spoon89]

Do you think maybe in a weird way Roose Bolton was kinder to his bastard son then Ned was to jon? I know that he only brought him into his house and asked the king to legitimize Ramsey because he needed an heir. But Robert was Ned's best friend, Robert didn't take his powers all that seriously and he totally owed ned for helping put him on the throne. If Ned wanted he could have asked Robert to Legitimize Jon Snow so that he didn't have to grow up with the shame of being a bastard and lesser than the other Stark children. Sure I know if Jon's father is Rhaegar that would technically make him Jon Targ not Jon Stark. But obviously you wouldn't bring that up and he'd just grow up as Jon stark. Just like if Rhaegar is his father then his bastard name should be Jon Waters not Jon Snow, but Ned doesn't have a problem with calling him Jon Snow. 

 

If you look at it per the Westerosi societal norm for bastards, Ned was very unusual.

 

Most bastards are unacknowledged (Barra and Bella), few of those are supported in any way (Gendry). Through acknowledgement comes support (finical support for the mother), those that are acknowledged are usual raised outside the fathers household (Ramsay Snow), and sometimes even outside the mother's if she is a noble and happens to wed post birth (Edric Storm).

 

Legitimatized bastards are rare, there are few throughout the series or other sources. So any request for the legitimization of Jon by Ned would a raise a lot of eyebrows since he's has heirs and he's already raising him in his household. Never mind that it would likely throw his family situation (thats already stressed because Jon is there) and might actually unseat his heirs.

[Codename: Nymeria]

Brian Rioghbhardan, on 28 Jul 2015 - 4:37 PM, said:

Ok so then to clarify all of you that are arguing against me are saying that if you currently have kids or were to ever have kids in the future and you raised them for decade or two. If you found out that they were not really your kids and you'd been a cuckhold that you'd tell them to go find their real dad because you're not him and then throw them out on the streets. That's what you're saying you'd do right? BTW This is a yes or no question, and if your answer is yes then I've got a follow up question for you "How is it that you don't see that you're a horrible person?". I'm guessing your answer to that will be "willful ignorance."

 

Ok, so then to clarify, you're saying that you would personally execute any children you have as soon as they're born in order to make sure you aren't raising someone else's kid? That's what you're saying you'd do right [sic]?This is a yes or no question, and if your answer if yes then I've got a follow up question for you.

 

...or are we not just randomly assigning theoretical actions that absolutely nobody has brought up in order to try and argue a point that has no merit?

[Lady Sharya]

:bang:
Sorry you will have to find something else about Ned to criticize.

Seriously... If this is the best he can come up with, points got NED

[Darkstream]

NO. Jupiter's Rooster, NO. 

Ha ha, love this.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

Yeah I'll admit I'm guilty of playing the role of troll here or at least in the way I chose to phrase this question and in the ways I chose to respond to nay sayers. I'll also admit this question came mostly out of my boredom. But I do honestly think Ned was being very narrow minded in his approach to all this, I'll also agree that this sort of narrow mindedness was kind of the social norm for people in the world of Westeros, kind of like Thomas Jefferson was a great guy but he also owned slaves. But I will say that despite this being the cultural norm not everyone in Westeros seemed to have such a narrow minded attitude towards to ascension to the throne. Prior to Ned's failed attempt at taking the throne from Cercei and handing it to Stanis, Renely and littlefinger seemed to be fine with the idea of keeping Joffrey as the roberts legitimate heir and having Ned rule in his stead. Nobody that Ned spoke to seemed to have any interest in having Stannis on the throne and all seemed to agree that he'd make bad king and that if he did become king he'd make all of westeros bleed with an all out war against the Lannisters. So in the interest of peace for everyone they all thought it would be best to keep up appearances and have Joffrey declared the rightful heir at least for the time being. I could even go back to the first Blackfyre rebellion and point out that it's extremely likely that Daeron II was actually the son of Aemon the dragonknight. Aegon the unworthy seemed to convinced this was the case and so technically his legitimaized bastard Daemon Blackfyre really should have ascended to the throne. During the Dance of Dragons Rhaenyra's first husband was gay and her first 3 sons were all technically bastards from Ser Strong and everyone knew it but anyone who dared to say so was tried for treason. If the Dance of Dragons hadn't occured and she'd taken the throne like her father wished then her first born bastard son would have taken the throne. So even though Westeros is a country where laws of the land dictated that a child who was conceived with man other than her husband should be disinherited and treated like a bastard, lets not pretend that this is how things actually went down. Kids who were commonly believed by the people to be children of another man often went on to claim their inherentance as long as they had people in power willing to back them or look the other way. 

[LordStoneheart]

Seriously 2/10 get on lord Arryns level put some effort in to your idiocy

 

 

:lmao:  :lmao: :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
 
:lmao:  :lmao: :lmao:  :lmao: 
:lmao:  

Too harsh? Or just right me I'd rather not ignore the ugly truth or whatever the imp said

[LordStoneheart]

Too harsh? Or just right me I'd rather not ignore the ugly truth or whatever the imp said

 

Just right. I'll give Lord Arryn credit in that he chooses the right topics to irk people. If he didn't do it fifty times a day some of them wouldn't look so trollish.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Just right. I'll give Lord Arryn credit in that he chooses the right topics to irk people. If he didn't do it fifty times a day some of them wouldn't look so trollish.

I actually like how he's semi-trolling with serious posts mixed in with disguised troll threads to spark discussions.

[LordStoneheart]

Yeah I'll admit I'm guilty of playing the role of troll here

 

All I needed to read. But just for fun, I did read the rest of that paragraph and it was just as nonsensical as before. Choosing Stannis over Joffrey was not choosing war over peace. That's just plain idiotic to think so. Ned was choosing the lawful side of a war. You know what those examples of bastards on the throne have in common? War. These matters are big enough to cause war. And honestly, no one should believe Daeron II was a bastard. That is nothing but a rumor.

[~DarkHorse~]

 

The only alternative to being Jon Snow, was say being raised as Jahaerys Targaryen by 3 bachelor men on some boat on the Rhoyne, without ever really knowing a home, family and siblings. At least he had a family life.

 

True, Jon was very lucky to have been raised by Ned and treated as family. He had a good family life and a good education, despite his Bastard status. He couldn't have asked for it better, really.

 

However, the moment Ned was going South, Jon lost his sense of security and belonging. He felt that he had no other option but to join the Night's Watch. This was very much the rash decision of an insecure and slightly dramatic teenager. Throughout the books, Jon has had a hard time keeping to his vows and begins to realise that he gave up more than he realised. This should not have been a problem. He should have entered this life binding vow without backing himself into a corner that he regrets.

 

Did Ned even discuss this with Jon, making sure he knew what he was signing up for? Did he assure Jon that he could have a life as a Bastard, letting him know that he had options?  In his discussion with Cat, he seems to have planned for Jon to become a second pair of hands for Robb but Cat's intolerance silenced this.

 

Jon also entered that vow not knowing who he was. I don't think it would have made a big difference but for Ned to turn up at the Wall after Jon has sold himself to the NW and reveal that his life was a lie...well, that is patchy.

 

I think Ned is a great guy but this is the one black mark I hold against him. He raised Jon well but the circumstances that led Jon to the NW could have been dealt with allot better. Maybe he did sit down and talk to him off page or voice his concerns like Benjen but we only got "there is honour in joining the Night's Watch..." and not "are you sure about this?" :closedeyes:

[sweetsunray]

 

True, Jon was very lucky to have been raised by Ned and treated as family. He had a good family life and a good education, despite his Bastard status. He couldn't have asked for it better, really.

 

However, the moment Ned was going South, Jon lost his sense of security and belonging. He felt that he had no other option but to join the Night's Watch. This was very much the rash decision of an insecure and slightly dramatic teenager. Throughout the books, Jon has had a hard time keeping to his vows and begins to realise that he gave up more than he realised. This should not have been a problem. He should have entered this life binding vow without backing himself into a corner that he regrets.

 

Did Ned even discuss this with Jon, making sure he knew what he was signing up for? Did he assure Jon that he could have a life as a Bastard, letting him know that he had options?  In his discussion with Cat, he seems to have planned for Jon to become a second pair of hands for Robb but Cat's intolerance silenced this.

 

Jon also entered that vow not knowing he was. I don't think it would have made a big difference but for Ned to turn up at the Wall after Jon has sold himself to the NW and reveal that his life was a lie...well, that is patchy.

 

I think Ned is a great guy but this is the one black mark I hold against him. He raised Jon well but the circumstances that led Jon to the NW could have been dealt with allot better. Maybe he did sit down and talk to him off page or voice his concerns like Benjen but we only got "there is honour in joining the Night's Watch..." and not "are you sure about this?" :closedeyes:

 

That we don't know really. There is quite a jump between Cat's talk with Ned, Arya's first chapter, then Bran's and finally Jon's when he leaves. There's weeks in between, at least a month, and none of those chapters are Ned's POV. And Jon's POV when he leaves makes us none the wiser about any other conversation between either Ned or Benjen about it. I can't imagine Ned didn't have a talk with him, but Cat forced his hand in that regard. I don't think there was much time to find an alternative for Jon anymore, especially when Jon had his heart set on it at the time. I think it's likely that off-page Ned asked him whether this was truly what Jon wanted, and that if it wasn't he could find an alternative for him, without being specific. And then Jon would have said, "I want this!" (just kinda like he says to Robb that Cat was 'kind'). And then Ned thought better not to push the subject anymore.