R+L=J v. 152

[corbon]

Thanks for the quote. 
Another question, we always said rhaegar was missing for almost one year. 
But here said rhaegar could not be found for "first months"
Does not mean he came back after just several months? sounds like this means a much shorter period than one year.

Most sensible people have never said Rhaegar was missing for almost one year. That primarily comes from Rhaegar haters deliberately trying to make him look as bad as possible, and secondarily from people who have read those claims and not examined them*. The best information we have is that after the news of the Battle of the Bells was received in KL, Aerys decided the rebellion was serious and Rhaegar was needed after all, and sent Hightower to get him (even though after Brandon;s outburst no one in KL knew where Rhaegar was), and clearly Rhaegar returned some time before the army left for the Trident, how long before we have no indication.

BoBells is best placed approximately 3-4 months into the war. Lets say maybe 4-6 months since Rhaegar 'disappeared'. It presumably would take some time for KL to get the news, Aerys to make his decision, and Hightower to find Rhaegar. That could be another month, or five months, we really have no clue.
The time between BoBells and Trident appears to be approximately 7-8 months, given the war lasted about a year and effectively closes with the Sack and perhaps Ned's accepting of the Tyrells bowing the knee shortly after at Dragonstone.

But its all a bit vague and really we can't tell how long Rhaegar was 'missing', either in total or only 'during the war'. 'During the war could be as short as 4 months or as long as 10-11 months and we have no real clues how to decide along that range. (And even the extents of that range are guesses based on vague data points).

 

 

*(there is so much 'wrong' on these boards, most of the time, its impossible to argue all the points, ranging from deliberate lies and misinformation by people with an agenda (few in this thread, they rarely last long here and often go away convinced everyone has a closed mind here and is out to get them), to people who just have naive (IMO of course) expectations of westerosi society and people and so make poor (IMO etc) judgements or assessments, to people who are less naive but more focused on a theory or a characterisation they believe in and perhaps read what they wish to see given a choice in interpretation. Any of us can be guilty of the last, even when we make a conscious effort to treat each data point independent;y of others when assessing it.

 

As examples, I could name multiple posts just in this thread overnight where other posters said something like "that just doesn't make sense" or "that seems a bit off to me" yet I often look at the exact same data points and think "no, that makes perfect sense and fits exactly right, there's no issue there to create questions and uncertainty". Consequently we will each make completely different assessments of the trustworthiness of that data point as well as the consequences of that data point.
 

Another question, we can safely guess Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love at HH. 
Do you think they were in some secret affair during the next year?
It seems strange to just randomly "fall" on her after a year on the road and run with her suddenly, with a group of his best and loyal buddies. This must be some sort of plan.

 

I don't think we can safely guess that they fell in love at Harrenhal.
I think its very clear Lyanna was the KotLT and that Rhaegar figured it out when he was ordered by Aerys to find the KotLT. Probably Rhaegar confronted her, but even that is not certain. Its clear that there was attraction on her side, but little more. I think his crowning of her as QoLaB is a gesture of respect and honouring her for her noble, honourable and brave, but hidden-and-must-remain-hidden-due-to-Aerys'-enmity actions, actions as KotLT.

The reason I think this is twofold.
First, although 'all the smiles died' when he crowned her, and Brandon was upset at his action then, there are no further indications from anyone of a relationship between them over the following months. I can't believe that people wouldn't have been watching closely and inclined to believe the worst and that therefore if anything had been going on there would have been some rumours of it that we would have heard by now - especially given the later 'abduction' events which would have just strengthened any early rumours of something between them. In fact, the complete lack of rumours about them leads me to think that Rhaegar actually did something immediately after crowning her that helped to clarify that it was not a romantic gesture - like perhaps going straight back to Elia afterward and clearly showing he was still very much with her. We have no evidence of that, but it would not be that remarkable so that we should have evidence for it and it would explain the lack of rumours about a post-Harrenhal affair.

Second, and even more importantly, Rhagear was famously dutiful, and also famously studious and influenced by prophecy. We see in the Dany vision when Aegon is born that he believes Aegon to be the PtwP with aSoIaF and that "the dragon has three heads" and "there must be one more". He appears very much to be trying for three kids to fulfill prophecy. Now back to Harrenhal, at that stage he was dutifully married to Elia, had one child already and another about to be or just conceived. He has no reason to be 'interested' romantically in Lyanna - his focus seems to be on three children, three heads of the dragon, and he's dutifully and successfully working on them with his assigned dragon-blood wife. He could quite easily have been attracted to her, even powerfully, and not acted on it though.
Back forward again to after Aegon's birth and now he has 2 of 3 kids/heads required but suddenly his plan is broken by the news that Elia cannot risk having more children. NOW he needs another wife whereas at Harrenhal he has no need at all... and a few months later, the 'abduction' happens.
But its also notable that Lyanna provides the Ice to his Fire, and he's already suggested that he though Aegon's song was a Song of Ice and Fire. It seems likely that after hearing that Elia couldn't provide the third head he started thinking of alternatives, remembered the KotLT girl, and realised the Ice and Fire connection. But we are deep into conjecture territory here, even if it all fits closely with the data points we have.

 

So I agree that it almost certainly wasn't random that he 'fell on' Lyanna and that by then there was a plan. And that the seeds of such plan were planted at Harrenhal. But I doubt very much that any relationship started at Harrenhal, or continued ain the months between Harrenhal and Aegon's birth.
 

Why accept lines like
 
 
 
 
But not accept
 
 
This line? None of these 4 are in the books.

 
Because those lines are clear and explicit and have hints or facts within the books that make them fit. The last does not have any hints within the book that support it and is vague and unclear to boot.

For example we have been told that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's closest companion and had it implied he was part of an inner circle that Barristan never was. And we have noted that the Tourney at Harrenhal, supposedly potentially party to plotting serious enough to rouse Aerys from the Red Keep, was held at the seat of House Whent. Whent and Dayne are also notable absent from early war and pre-war events.
It is therefore a logical and reasonable conclusion that they were assigned to guard Rhaegar and were with him, and when we are told they assisted him in the 'abduction' it is merely a confirmation of what we had already guessed. Especially when they are later found with Lyanna.
 

Similarly we had already heard that Hightower was at KL during the Brandon episodes, the trial at least, and later clearly not at KL and definitely found with the people Rhaegar was previously with, so the information that Aerys sent him to get Rhaegar makes perfect sense and fits with what we know (actually I'm sure we had that information from somewhere long before the app, which is relatively recent, but I can't recall where from).

 

Again, regarding that Rhaegar ordered them to stay, we have supporting information making this fit, so we believe it, have no reason to question it.

 

But that there was a vague rumour about their location, not clear who, when or why this rumour came about, no other hints that this rumour existed, things about the rumour that don't fit (if this rumour is about, why doesn't Aerys want Lyanna as well and how are they able to keep clear hidden for so long and how come no one appears to have thought about the consequences and how come no one else has ever mentioned the ToJ or what happened to Lyanna after the abduction?).
Yes, thats worth questioning. The details of the rumour fit, but the existence of it does not, and looks very much like an unreliable source confusing the timeliness of information in the past.

[purple-eyes]

Most sensible people have never said Rhaegar was missing for almost one year. That primarily comes from Rhaegar haters deliberately trying to make him look as bad as possible, and secondarily from people who have read those claims and not examined them*. The best information we have is that after the news of the Battle of the Bells was received in KL, Aerys decided the rebellion was serious and Rhaegar was needed after all, and sent Hightower to get him (even though after Brandon;s outburst no one in KL knew where Rhaegar was), and clearly Rhaegar returned some time before the army left for the Trident, how long before we have no indication.
BoBells is best placed approximately 3-4 months into the war. Lets say maybe 4-6 months since Rhaegar 'disappeared'. It presumably would take some time for KL to get the news, Aerys to make his decision, and Hightower to find Rhaegar. That could be another month, or five months, we really have no clue.
The time between BoBells and Trident appears to be approximately 7-8 months, given the war lasted about a year and effectively closes with the Sack and perhaps Ned's accepting of the Tyrells bowing the knee shortly after at Dragonstone.
But its all a bit vague and really we can't tell how long Rhaegar was 'missing', either in total or only 'during the war'. 'During the war could be as short as 4 months or as long as 10-11 months and we have no real clues how to decide along that range. (And even the extents of that range are guesses based on vague data points).
 
 
*(there is so much 'wrong' on these boards, most of the time, its impossible to argue all the points, ranging from deliberate lies and misinformation by people with an agenda (few in this thread, they rarely last long here
 

 
I don't think we can safely guess that they fell in love at Harrenhal.
I think its very clear Lyanna was the KotLT and that Rhaegar figured it out when he was ordered by Aerys to find the KotLT. Probably Rhaegar confronted her, but even that is not certain. Its clear that there was attraction on her side, but little more. I think his crowning of her as QoLaB is a gesture of respect and honouring her for her noble, honourable and brave, but hidden-and-must-remain-hidden-due-to-Aerys'-enmity actions, actions as KotLT.
The reason I think this is twofold.
First, although 'all the smiles died' when he crowned her, and Brandon was upset at his action then, there are no further indications from anyone of a relationship between them over the following months. I can't believe that people wouldn't have been watching closely and inclined to believe the worst and that therefore if anything had been going on there would have been some rumours of it that we would have heard by now - especially given the later 'abduction' events which would have just strengthened any early rumours of something between them. In fact, the complete lack of rumours about them leads me to think that Rhaegar actually did something immediately after crowning her that helped to clarify that it was not a romantic gesture - like perhaps going straight back to Elia afterward and clearly showing he was still very much with her. We have no evidence of that, but it would not be that remarkable so that we should have evidence for it and it would explain the lack of rumours about a post-Harrenhal affair.
Second, and even more importantly, Rhagear was famously dutiful, and also famously studious and influenced by prophecy. We see in the Dany vision when Aegon is born that he believes Aegon to be the PtwP with aSoIaF and that "the dragon has three heads" and "there must be one more". He appears very much to be trying for three kids to fulfill prophecy. Now back to Harrenhal, at that stage he was dutifully married to Elia, had one child already and another about to be or just conceived. He has no reason to be 'interested' romantically in Lyanna - his focus seems to be on three children, three heads of the dragon, and he's dutifully and successfully working on them with his assigned dragon-blood wife. He could quite easily have been attracted to her, even powerfully, and not acted on it though.

Yes, thats worth questioning. The details of the rumour fit, but the existence of it does not, and looks very much like an unreliable source confusing the timeliness of information in the past.

Thanks for the clarification!
One doubt here. Queen of love and beauty was a famous symbol to show romantic love in a woman. Even rhaegar himself thought it just a praise for bravery and honor, nobody else would believe so. Rhaegar should have known that. Honestly, every time GRRM wrote about the crowning of Lyanna, he never forgot to mention " passing his own wife". So it was indeed a very embarrassing behavior and also disgraced his own wife. How come you want to praise someone out of respect by exactly insulting your own wife? So I personal think rhaegar indeed fell in love for Lyanna already and crowned her to show his love irrationally and thoughtlessly.
This mistake directly helped Brandon to take negative attitude and rush action right after the running off without more investigation, eventually led the downfall.

[spoon89]

It looks quite like they are in timely order.
Everything else was in a timely order. From HH to the end.
They heard the rumor then they found Rhaegar.

 

If Ned (or Robert) had learned of Lyanna's location prior to the Sack or the breaking of the siege of Storms End, I'm fairly sure that Ned would have headed there instead of leading the pursuit after the Trident and then leading the breaking of the siege. He wasn't the only battle commander around and my guess would be that Lyanna's rescue would be high on Robert's personal priority list.

[purple-eyes]

If Ned (or Robert) had learned of Lyanna's location prior to the Sack or the breaking of the siege of Storms End, I'm fairly sure that Ned would have headed there instead of leading the pursuit after the Trident and then leading the breaking of the siege. He wasn't the only battle commander around and my guess would be that Lyanna's rescue would be high on Robert's personal priority list.

Firstly, information of prince Rhaegar were more likely to be obtained from the people around or close to Rhaegar, aka loyalists, then back to KL. They were fighting with rebellions, you thought they would gladly share secret information with Robert and Ned?
Secondly, Robert was injured and Ned had to take care of the siege. They were in war and of course they had to make sure they completely won. When ned figured out lyanna was in the south, Robert did not accompany him either, probably due to injury or king's business or something else. By your theory, Robert should have gone with Ned since this is his high priority.
Rumor was heard by king's people then king sent white bull to retrieve Rhaegar. I did not see what is the problem here.

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks for the clarification!
One doubt here. Queen of love and beauty was a famous symbol to show romantic love in a woman. Even rhaegar himself thought it just a praise for bravery and honor, nobody else would believe so. Rhaegar should have known that. Honestly, every time GRRM wrote about the crowning of Lyanna, he never forgot to mention " passing his own wife". So it was indeed a very embarrassing behavior and also disgraced his own wife. How come you want to praise someone out of respect by exactly insulting your own wife? So I personal think rhaegar indeed fell in love for Lyanna already and crowned her to show his love irrationally and thoughtlessly.
This mistake directly helped Brandon to take negative attitude and rush action right after the running off without more investigation, eventually led the downfall.

Great observation, and my thoughts as well.

Sometimes the simplest explanations are the best explanations.

[IceFire125]

We see in the Dany vision when Aegon is born that he believes Aegon to be the PtwP with aSoIaF and that "the dragon has three heads" and "there must be one more". He appears very much to be trying for three kids to fulfill prophecy. Now back to Harrenhal, at that stage he was dutifully married to Elia, had one child already and another about to be or just conceived. He has no reason to be 'interested' romantically in Lyanna - his focus seems to be on three children, three heads of the dragon, and he's dutifully and successfully working on them with his assigned dragon-blood wife. He could quite easily have been attracted to her, even powerfully, and not acted on it though.

Back forward again to after Aegon's birth and now he has 2 of 3 kids/heads required but suddenly his plan is broken by the news that Elia cannot risk having more children. NOW he needs another wife whereas at Harrenhal he has no need at all... and a few months later, the 'abduction' happens.
But its also notable that Lyanna provides the Ice to his Fire, and he's already suggested that he though Aegon's song was a Song of Ice and Fire. It seems likely that after hearing that Elia couldn't provide the third head he started thinking of alternatives, remembered the KotLT girl, and realised the Ice and Fire connection. But we are deep into conjecture territory here, even if it all fits closely with the data points we have.

 

So I agree that it almost certainly wasn't random that he 'fell on' Lyanna and that by then there was a plan. And that the seeds of such plan were planted at Harrenhal. But I doubt very much that any relationship started at Harrenhal, or continued ain the months between Harrenhal and Aegon's birth.

 

Responding to the bold. 

 

I don't think it's deep of a conjecture at all.

 

If Bloodraven can enter Jon's dream via his power through the weirwoods, I believe he can enter Rhaegar's dreams as well.  I think he entered Rhaegar's dreams after his realization of Elia's situation, that he had to pursue other ways that lead to the point of thought in pursuing Lyanna.

 

And knowing Rhaegar's prowess in studying scrolls, I won't be surprise that after the dream he went back to search and search; searching for something about the long forgotten Targaryen "pact of Ice and Fire" with the Starks.

[purple-eyes]

Responding to the bold. 
 
I don't think it's deep of a conjecture at all.
 
If Bloodraven can enter Jon's dream via his power through the weirwoods, I believe he can enter Rhaegar's dreams as well.  I think he entered Rhaegar's dreams after his realization of Elia's situation, that he had to pursue other ways that lead to the point of thought in pursuing Lyanna.
 
And knowing Rhaegar's prowess in studying scrolls, I won't be surprise that after the dream he went back to search and search; searching for something about the long forgotten Targaryen "pact of Ice and Fire" with the Starks.

Then Rhaegar said: The crow has three eyes! I had to have the third kid!

[spoon89]

Firstly, information of prince Rhaegar were more likely to be obtained from the people around or close to Rhaegar, aka loyalists, then back to KL. They were fighting with rebellions, you thought they would gladly share secret information with Robert and Ned?
Secondly, Robert was injured and Ned had to take care of the siege. They were in war and of course they had to make sure they completely won. When ned figured out lyanna was in the south, Robert did not accompany him either, probably due to injury or king's business or something else. By your theory, Robert should have gone with Ned since this is his high priority.
Rumor was heard by king's people then king sent white bull to retrieve Rhaegar. I did not see what is the problem here.

 

My theory is that Hightower got the direction of Rhaegar's travel by sending ravens to the loyalist lords and likely got word that Rhaegar had been seen heading south to towards Dorne towards the Prince's Pass (that would come from a Reach lord). Then Ned got the same information from the same person after breaking the siege of Storms End, since most of the Reach lords were there (some few would have been at the Trident since they did provide some strength to host).

 

To my memory, Robert was injured at the Trident, Jon, Ned and Hoster were not (Hoster had been wounded at the BotB early on the year though so he may be out of the fight). Ned and Robert were not on good terms when he left KL due to the slaying of princess Elia and the heirs, and Robert actions in reference to the Lannisters. Peace with Dorne was not made until the following year by Jon, so that may also be a reason that Ned went with only his six companions, in addition to wanting to keep it among close companions.

[corbon]

Thanks for the clarification!
One doubt here. Queen of love and beauty was a famous symbol to show romantic love in a woman. Even rhaegar himself thought it just a praise for bravery and honor, nobody else would believe so. Rhaegar should have known that. Honestly, every time GRRM wrote about the crowning of Lyanna, he never forgot to mention " passing his own wife". So it was indeed a very embarrassing behavior and also disgraced his own wife. How come you want to praise someone out of respect by exactly insulting your own wife? So I personal think rhaegar indeed fell in love for Lyanna already and crowned her to show his love irrationally and thoughtlessly.
This mistake directly helped Brandon to take negative attitude and rush action right after the running off without more investigation, eventually led the downfall.

 

No, it is not. This is much touted around here, but it is simply not so. It can be used as such, and sometimes (perhaps even often) is used as such, but that is not its basis. It is simply showing a woman respect, honouring her, at its heart. This is proven by the KG being able to name QoLaB when they win tournament despite being forbidden romantic attachments and even more so by the start of the tourney at Harrenhal. The initial 5 'champions' to be challenged were Whents, 4 brothers and their uncle, who were 'championing' their sister/niece as QoLaB. You cannot tell me with a straight face that they were doing so as a romantic symbol for their sister/niece.

 

I think that the emphasis on Rhaegar 'passing his wife' was not because it was a huge deal for him to do so, but that it was a huge surprise. He was noted as being the dutiful type and surely everyone just expected him to name his wife as a dutiful husband. But then he spurs past her and gives it to an almost unknown (for herself, not her family) young girl, with massive political implications, and its a sudden WTF moment. No wonder 'all the smiles died'.
But equally, there's absolutely zero evidence at the moment of any followup to that moment (until nearly a year later when the 'abduction' happens). No hints, no rumours, no scandal, and there really should be hints of something we'd have heard by now. So I think, beyond that immediate moment, something happened to ease the minds of those not directly involved, to lesson the potential scandal. Perhaps he rode back to Elia and embraced her, or perhaps she smiled and waved her support, all sorts of possibilities are open and are not big enough deals to the people we've had access to have come to our attention nearly 20 years later.

 

I also note that Brandon was defeated by Rhaegar during the tourney, and that may have rankled with a hot headed, wild, highly entitled young man like Brandon. Which leads to his being the most negative response and later his clearly over-the-top and stupid reaction to the 'abduction'.

 

 

Responding to the bold. 

 

I don't think it's deep of a conjecture at all.

 

 

Well, its not that deep in terms of fitting very well with the data we have, but we don't have any actual data points confirming it, so its still quite conjectural even if, I hope, 'educated' conjecture.

 

And yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he hit the books again thinking about how to get that third head. And the historically promised 'Pact of Ice and Fire' that was never followed through by an actual marriage.

[purple-eyes]

No, it is not. This is much touted around here, but it is simply not so. It can be used as such, and sometimes (perhaps even often) is used as such, but that is not its basis. It is simply showing a woman respect, honouring her, at its heart. This is proven by the KG being able to name QoLaB when they win tournament despite being forbidden romantic attachments and even more so by the start of the tourney at Harrenhal. The initial 5 'champions' to be challenged were Whents, 4 brothers and their uncle, who were 'championing' their sister/niece as QoLaB. You cannot tell me with a straight face that they were doing so as a romantic symbol for their sister/niece.
 
I think that the emphasis on Rhaegar 'passing his wife' was not because it was a huge deal for him to do so, but that it was a huge surprise. He was noted as being the dutiful type and surely everyone just expected him to name his wife as a dutiful husband. But then he spurs past her and gives it to an almost unknown (for herself, not her family) young girl, with massive political implications, and its a sudden WTF moment. No wonder 'all the smiles died'.
But equally, there's absolutely zero evidence at the moment of any followup to that moment (until nearly a year later when the 'abduction' happens). No hints, no rumours, no scandal, and there really should be hints of something we'd have heard by now. So I think, beyond that immediate moment, something happened to ease the minds of those not directly involved, to lesson the potential scandal. Perhaps he rode back to Elia and embraced her, or perhaps she smiled and waved her support, all sorts of possibilities are open and are not big enough deals to the people we've had access to have come to our attention nearly 20 years later.
 
I also note that Brandon was defeated by Rhaegar during the tourney, and that may have rankled with a hot headed, wild, highly entitled young man like Brandon. Which leads to his being the most negative response and later his clearly over-the-top and stupid reaction to the 'abduction'.
 

 
Well, its not that deep in terms of fitting very well with the data we have, but we don't have any actual data points confirming it, so its still quite conjectural even if, I hope, 'educated' conjecture.
 
And yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he hit the books again thinking about how to get that third head. And the historically promised 'Pact of Ice and Fire' that was never followed through by an actual marriage.

The tourney was made to honor the host's daughter's naming day. Of course the rose wreath was with her at the beginning. Her brothers and uncle did not crown her, they just tried to defend her, this is how they started the opening. Somebody had to hold the wreath at the beginning. Crowning will be done by the final champion. If her uncle won, he could crown his niece if he wanted, that is fine, just like a father crowns his daughter.
But rhaegar was not lyanna's family at all. His crowning had obviously romantic feeling in it. Even himself did not think so, other people would think so. This is just like a married man shouted in an Olympic ceremony in front of the world when his wife was sitting right there: oh, I love this 15 year old girl! She is most beautiful woman in my eyes! Or give a huge bunch of red roses to a young woman at valentine's day in the street in front of his own wife.
Can you see how inappropriate it is?
You must be a guy. No wife or GF would hug and smile at rhaegar in this case. He basically told the whole public lyanna is way more beautiful and lovable than Elia. What wife would feel happy on this?
It is ridiculous to imagine Elia would happily wave and smile at him for his behaviors. All smile died, including Elia's.

Oh. About KG, Barri mentioned how he would crown ashara if he won. You know how he loved her, right? KG can not have family or father child, but they can show their favor and love to a woman for sure.

[corbon]

The tourney was made to honor the host's daughter's naming day. Of course the rose wreath was with her at the beginning. Her brothers and uncle did not crown her, they just tried to defend her, this is how they started the opening. Somebody had to hold the wreath at the beginning. Crowning will be done by the final champion. If her uncle won, he could crown his niece if he wanted, that is fine, just like a father crowns his daughter.

Yes. Which very clearly shows that the foundations of naming QoLaB are about honour and respect, not romantic love.

That doesn't stop it being used as an expression of romantic love, and many people will probably make that their first guess of its meaning. But the fact remains that we have (at this time) no further indications between the crowning moment and the abduction that anyone believed their was anything romantic between them. And we really really should, given such suspicions or rumours or thoughts would have been 'proven' by the subsequent abduction.
 

But rhaegar was not lyanna's family at all. His crowning had obviously romantic feeling in it. Even himself did not think so, other people would think so. This is just like a married man shouted in an Olympic ceremony in front of the world when his wife was sitting right there: oh, I love this 15 year old girl! She is most beautiful woman in my eyes! Or give a huge bunch of red roses to a young woman at valentine's day in the street in front of his own wife.

 

There is nothing obviously romantic about it in itself. There is no data points at this time that suggest his crowning had a romantic implication, you are just adding that because others (Jorah most obviously) have done that in the past.

Its nothing like your example. Its more like, say, Obama naming someone other than his wife as 'woman of the year'.

 

Note also, for example, the incident with Loras and Sansa. Loras gave white roses after every victory to people in the crowd, but he gave a red rose to Sansa and Sansa alone. If thats not a romantic statement I'm not sure what is. Sansa naively thought so. Yet what we see is that it wasn't really anything of the sort, just a man playing to the crowd without any real interest in the girl. Similarly, I think Rhaegar is playing past the crowd here.
 

Can you see how inappropriate it is?

Sure, in the context you name it. But thats because you choose that as teh context, not because its the natural or only context available.
 

You must be a guy. No wife or GF would hug and smile at rhaegar in this case. He basically told the whole public lyanna is way more beautiful and lovable than Elia. What wife would feel happy on this?

 

Again, you are placing your interpretation upon the scene. A smart man, and we know Rhaegar is smart, would have explained what he planned, and why (KotLT, Aerys' unjust enmity), to his wife before doing it and a smart wife, understanding, would support his actions and plan with him to mitigate the inaccurate perceptions people who are not in the know might have of what they have seen. 
 

It is ridiculous to imagine Elia would happily wave and smile at him for his behaviors. All smile died, including Elia's.

 

Its not even slightly ridiculous given a bit of forethought and not being stuck with a closed mind that it was definitely a horrible insult.

 

And, 'all the smiles died' is merely Ned's recollection, or description of his recollection. As such, it may well apply only to those in his immediate vicinity. Its highly unlikely that all the smiles died of everyone present at the tourney. Someone would have found such a potential scandal amusing, or exciting, or beneficial. Imagine Olenna Tyrell watching with delight, for example. ;)

 

Robert laughed it off even.
 

Oh. About KG, Barri mentioned how he would crown ashara if he won. You know how he loved her, right? KG can not have family or father child, but they can show their favor and love to a woman for sure.

 

Yes, he loved her. But he couldn't show romantic love for her. He could show her honour and demonstrate his respect for her, and let her know that there was someone who would support her in a tie of need.

But he couldn't show he loved her. Love is the death of duty, and a KG is above all about duty. The reason they cannot have romantic attachments is because such can be an obstruction to and/or distraction from their duties.

 

Barristan's thoughts about Ashara strongly support the honour and respect argument, not the romantic love argument.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And not a single character that we have met has noted that Aegon was disinherited, or otherwise removed from the succession. (Thanks for relenting on the named part. That is like the conflation that makes a Stark responsible for Ashara's dishonor, when it says nothing of the sort.)
I don't know why not, since Barristan easily eluded Cersei's assassins.

I recalled the word 'named' but that must have been from an earlier discussion.

Nor am I saying Aegon was disinhetited. All I am saying is that Viserys came first.

Aerys is stated to have mistrusted the Dornish. What is more logical? To keep a half-dornish infant as your heir, which means that the Dornish will only profit from your death, and will have no reason to not betray you again?
Of name your own son heir and make the dornish grandchild a hostage, ensuring that, even if you die due to betrayel from the Dornish, the Dornish won't profit from it?

The KG knight who was trying to get Maelor to safety during the Dance of the Dragons might have something to say about being recognized whilst traveling.
Barristan wanted to avoid recognition by anyone, Gerold would have no reason to do so. For him, only the rebels could proof problematic. In addition, Aerys would know Rhaegar was accompanied by two men. If Rhaegar did not want to come to KL, one man against three are quite bad odds.


But none of this was my original point. My point was that your statement, that Viserys was Aerys' new heir because Aerys had Aegon ans Rhaenys killed, is not what the book says. The book names Viserys as heir in the same breath as listing how Aegon and Rhaenys were still in the Red Keep. Aegon is still alive, yet Viserys is the new heir.

Seems very clear to me.

rhaenys_targaryen
 
if aerys, aegon and rhaegar all died then anyone who didnt know about jon would naturally assume viserys was heir. since their is no evidence to support that robert or yandel knew it makes sense they make that assumption. its also possible that at the time yandel is writing its known that viserys is the heir and he simply names him as such, regardless of when he actually became heir. its never stated when that happened.
---------

In the same sentence where Viserys is mentioned to be heir, Aegon is mentioned to be alive. That means that Viserys was heir over Aegon, not that Aegon could never ever inherit anything at all.

See above for more.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
Yes, but I was wondering if you still had a link to Elio's post as well.

I'll have to look on my laptop for that. will do when I have the time!

[Consigliere]

<snip>

Thanks for replying. Some really interesting stuff there.

[TheSmallOther]

Do they need to see Ned as a threat to insist on fighting? On holding their ground?

 

They've already lost. But, "our knees do not bend easily." If Jon's in that tower, giving him to Ned is "bending." So, they could just be refusing to yield. Fight to the death rather than yield. 

 

Agreed. Makes more sense than "KG were defending the tower", while their words and actions don't look like defence at all.

[purple-eyes]

i hate rhaegar make KG as doorman for one year and die in such a meaningless way. Their bones were not even sent back home. Arthur should have died in the battle honorably and valiantly. Their death at TOJ did not gain or change anything. What the hell rhaegar is thinking?

[Selena]

i hate rhaegar make KG as doorman for one year and die in such a meaningless way. Their bones were not even sent back home. Arthur should have died in the battle honorably and valiantly. Their death at TOJ did not gain or change anything. What the hell rhaegar is thinking?

I think thats the point some other posters were making. They DID die in battle. They were valiant and noble to the end.

Instead of saying "ok, you win game over" and bending the knee they said "we dont do that"

Instead of jumping at the go free pass ned was maybe offering in a round about way they said " nope, dont do that either"

 

for whatever reason they were at the ToJ. and that is where they made their last stand ...and almost won

[purple-eyes]

I think thats the point some other posters were making. They DID die in battle. They were valiant and noble to the end.
Instead of saying "ok, you win game over" and bending the knee they said "we dont do that"
Instead of jumping at the go free pass ned was maybe offering in a round about way they said " nope, dont do that either"
 
for whatever reason they were at the ToJ. and that is where they made their last stand ...and almost won

You could say they died for guarding a savior of the world. But based on their words with Ned, they seems not very thrilled to miss everything and stay far away.

[Selena]

You could say they died for guarding a savior of the world. But based on their words with Ned, they seems not very thrilled to miss everything and stay far away.

 

I dont read it that way at all. They may be, and we may see that  when we get the full story of what really happened but for now I dont see it.

[purple-eyes]

 

I dont read it that way at all. They may be, and we may see that  when we get the full story of what really happened but for now I dont see it.

 

Not sure about you or Arthur himself, but IMHO, I would rather see him have a legendary song-inspiring duel using his Dawn against Lady Forlorn or Robert's war-hammer, even he still died and Rhaegar still failed. it sounds better than being killed by some magic or poisonous arrow of Reed during his fight with Ned.