GRRM on Gendry and Arya (Allegedly)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Double-post, sorry. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Great post. I think the wealth of intelligent and knowledgeable women on this forum and this thread alone is a testament to the value of equality amongst the sexes. I feel very privlaged to be able to benifit from the insightful and educational contributions you lady's put forth everyday. My thanks and support to all of you. :bowdown:

Ps. When I came to these boards I was pleasantly surprised to find so many women that enjoy reading fantasy novels. I can't get my wife or any women in my family to take any interest in this genre.

 

Don't want to get too far afield but see if she'd like authors like Marion Zimmer Bradley. *The Mists of Avalon* is a take on Camelot centered on Morgana. Haven't re-read it in years but I liked it when I was younger.

 

I'm actually kind of surprised she doesn't like ASOIAF. Part of GRRM's gift is the way that he's really woven in complex female characters in a medieval setting. It's like, he gets it when it comes to being a little girl like Arya, a teen like Sansa or Dany, or a middle aged mom like Catelyn. His women ring true which is why he's got just as many female fans as male. ASOIAF really is a universal story, I think.

 

 

Western culture embraced the idea of female equality far earlier than Eastern culture did (for the record, Eastern culture still hasn't embraced that concept)

 

Brainpower knows no gender.

 

Thank you! Yes, I think it's important to have male and female scientists and scholars. There are some women in Westeros who'd make decent maesters. And others who'd be amazing lords... it's a shame that Olenna Tyrell, for instance, wasn't ruling Highgarden in her own right. But such is the way of the world!

 

Of course, not all women in ASOIAF are awesome or empowered. Textbook example A is Cersei who seems to loathe everyone.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

patriarchy was the norm

 

 

 

For good reason...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

30 is an age in which mostly people has some stability already in their lives. At least in my case, despite my problems, I can see myself in the mirror and say "I like what I see: that is who I am". That, I suppose, influences on my sexual life because sex is often about confidence rather than anything else. When I was a teen or was in my 20s I had still too many doubts: "do I look pretty enough?", "I'm fat?" "what people would think of me?". And of course, work and college drama. Now I don't give a damn about those things.

About Martin's portrayal, I like that is very accurate to what many historians say women should be. Someone here post a good article about how to write medieval women and GRRM does it right. Mostly write Brienne clones that disguise themselves as men and have zero femininity or dislike being women. Women back them had many issues to fight, but they were still useful members of their communities and their works and collaboration was appreciated.

They also found themselves a way to rebel against any gender inequality, despite they weren't exactly making a war for it. I think women never needed one movement or organization to realise they shouldn't be treated like minor. I remember, when I was young, whenever people told me "that's a work for men" or "wait for your father return and fix it" I was all "wtf?" before I was aware of the word "feminism". My grandmother and my mother weren't exactly "warriors" or activists and they had some sexist ideologies but they still had their own way. Whenever I got hurt when I was a child, my grandma would tell me "women don't cry: women go to war and tend the soldiers. They need to be even braver than men" (she was married to a soldier). And my mother was the first one in the family with a big important job in a big important clinic. Back in the 80s, it was a huge thing for a woman to have such a job. I guess I've always grown up in a very matriarchal enviroment.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

 

My earliest memory is of my 2nd birthday, and a part of it was about gender roles. I was a spirited tomboy, and even at that age I felt a dislike agains the expectation of the girly girl. It had an influence on the colors I preferred, which is what my earliest memory is about. But my mother showed me by example how a woman could be a woman without loving pink. (Although she did try to make me wear skirts constantly, and I hated it...and she had her hopes dashed when she soon learned I hated shopping too.) Last year I started to teach at an orthodox jewish school, where I have to wear a skirt each day. First year of my life, I've worn a skirt/dres every day. Now I'm used to it, but as soon as I get home, I put on a jeans.

 

I've never worn a skirt.  There's nothing in Heaven or Earth that could make me wear a skirt, skirt wearer...

 

Oh yeah - you're a freaking' GIRL ! :)

[Meera of Tarth]

 

Why are we talking about "personhood" in the world of ASOIAF when males and females are clearly differentiated in that world ?

 

An unmarried childless male at that age would still be considered a relative catch, while his female counterpart would be looked at with suspicion.

Males and females may be different in that world, but their age, and the way they are getting older is the same (ok, I consider that times of war may make men look older, but in times of peace especially if they are highborn, they get the first grays at the same age, but they are not old in their thirties

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Males and females may be different in that world, but their age, and the way they are getting older is the same 

 

No, it's not.

 

Virile males and nubile females are quite different in the world of ASOIAF.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Males and females may be different in that world, but their age, and the way they are getting older is the same (ok, I consider that times of war may make men look older, but in times of peace especially if they are highborn, they get the first grays at the same age, but they are not old in their thirties

 

Exactly. One of my favorite passages in all of ASOIAF is Cat laying with Ned and thinking "I can still give him another child."

 

The Starks had one of the happiest marriages -- and marriage beds -- in the kingdoms. And in their mid-30s, they were still relatively young, and really could have had another 1-3 children. Cat seemed to give birth with no trouble, and Luwin seems a very knowledgeable maester (like, he'd know to wash his hands, etc., so no chance of puerperal fever).

 

Cat and Ned were cast older in the series to reflect the older ages of the actors playing their kids, but even so, I think that Sean Bean and Michelle Fairley were a great couple, and could definitely think they had a happy marriage in every sense. And they're likely happier over the years, as they got to know each other, Cat moved past the presence of Jon, their children grew healthy and strong, and Winterfell and the North prospered.

 

The 30s are a great decade, and are in ASOIAF. The challenge is that many don't get there... so many in Ned and Cat's generation died in RR, and Robert destroyed his body and his health.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

 

Exactly. One of my favorite passages in all of ASOIAF is Cat laying with Ned and thinking "I can still give him another child."

 

Forgive me, but just can't see your modern sensibilities laying on your back to give the Ned another child.

 

I think it's a better chance that you'd close those legs and try to make Ned give the Northern women the freedom they so richly deserve... :)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

 

No, it's not.

 

Virile males and nubile females are quite different in the world of ASOIAF.

 

Actually, being a nubile female during ASOIAF (and our own Middle Ages) was a blessing and a curse...

 

And in a sense, it is both blessing and curse now. After being terrified to turn 30, as JonCon's Red Beard says, I felt so much more comfortable in my own skin, and quit trying to please everyone. I used to live and die on someone's opinion of me, and so my sense of self was very externalized. Now, I'm my own person.

 

In the Middle Ages, some of the most powerful women were highborn widows. Also, once you reach a certain age as a woman, you have less of a chance of dying in childbirth, being raped during a war (although sometimes soldiers will molest even older women), or being forced to marry again against your will to provide heirs for someone else.

 

If you're in a longstanding marriage, your surviving children are doing okay, and your husband is kind (or at least doesn't beat or abuse you), you're generally happy. You're interdependent, you on him, and him on you, in many ways that I think the Stark marriage exemplifies -- he is Lord of the North, she runs the household. They've been doing their jobs for many years and are comfortable. Comfort -- that's the trade-off for reaching middle age both then and now. You lose some of your vitality but you gain competence, and a way of doing things that suits you. You don't have as many questions as younger people have... because life has a way of answering many of them.

 

I'm just finishing up Ian Mortimer's Time Traveler's Guide to the Middle Ages, and it's interesting to note that their lower life expectancy is in part because their infant and child mortality rate is so high. Add to that the high rate of death for women in childbed, and there you have it. People didn't live as long as they do now, but if you reached adulthood, barring war, famine, or pestilence, you were likely to reach your 50s or 60s.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Forgive me, but just can't see your modern sensibilities laying on your back to give the Ned another child.

 

I think it's a better chance that you'd close those legs and try to make Ned give the Northern women the freedom they so richly deserve... :)

 

I'm not Cat. Between us, my husband and I work a combined 100 hours outside the home during a good week. (It's why as much as I love ASOIAF and these boards, my post count is relatively low... I have busy days and weeks when I can't peek in.)

 

Between that and my health problems, alas, no babies for us. Perhaps adoption, though... and soon. :)

 

If I were Cat, and he Ned, and we were living at Winterfell, and we'd married in our late teens, I would easily have had a dozen children for him, and thoroughly enjoyed the making of them, too. (TMI, but hey, we're going there, so...)

 

Having children isn't the opposite of female empowerment, as many of my colleagues have kids, PhDs, very high-powered jobs, and great marriages besides. A woman really can have it all, but it's exhausting. My job is exhausting me so that I may need to change my course soon. But still, it's a great life.

 

I think Cat was just as empowered for her time and society as women of today are. Yes, she couldn't inherit Riverrun, but she was indispensable to first Hoster as his de facto chatelaine after Minisa died, and then to Ned as his wife and the Lady of Winterfell. She was for all intents and purposes a member of Robb's small council until she released Jaime. The only reason she isn't the fourth favorite character in my sig is because she's dead, and while I understand LSH, I don't love her as much as I did Catelyn Tully Stark.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Also, about Northern women's freedom, I adore the Mormont women telling everyone that their babies were fathered by bears.

 

(If anyone thinks that an adult Arya Stark wouldn't tell everyone that her child was fathered by a direwolf, I've a bridge to sell you...)

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I used to live and die on someone's opinion of me, and so my sense of self was very externalized. 

 

That must have surely sucked.

 

As a male, I have never had that particular inferiority complex.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That must have surely sucked.
 
As a male, I have never had that particular inferiority complex.

Lucky you, but it has little to do with you being male.

[Le Cygne]

Bad Kitten of the Canals.

 

That's perfect! :lol:

[Meera of Tarth]

 

I'd go full on Queen Elizabeth ;)

 

Yup, I am VERY glad I got to do with my life what I wanted. No arranged marriages at 13, not forced to stay married to a husband you don't like, or cheats... Being appreciated for more than producing heirs and know how to curtsy. If you'd be so lucky to be born high up. Maybe being a peasant is somewhat better. They could marry/shack up for love without causing a whole war over it, and most peasants, including women didn't usually marry until actually late teens or early 20s. Of course, some pillaging, raping army could come and burn your house down, murder you in your bed,  or some fancy lord clandestinely attempt to take first night rights. gag.

 

 

 

As a thirtysomething woman, yes, I can imagine.

 

I am grateful I don't live in the world of ASOIAF. Great world to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

 

I'm glad that instead of being forced to have sex that could have been nonconsensual in my mid teens, simply because my father or guardian chose this particular man for me, and then spending my late teens through my early 30s birthing babies without modern medical care, and having a 1 in 10 chance of dying in the process, I got to spent my teens, 20s, and 30s traveling the world, making friends, maximizing my education, starting a great career, and then falling totally in love. My young womanhood was a gift, a tremendous gift, and I am so very thankful.

 

Now that I'm looking at 40 in a few years, looking back, I got to live a life my great-grandmother couldn't have dreamed of... she was a sweet woman, but happy? I think she'd say that happiness for women of that generation was sort of beside the point.  My grandmother and mother, both were married mothers young, and always encouraged me to wait and find out who I was first. So thankful for that, and I have zero regrets. I'm a pretty happy person, and I'm satisfied with the way my life has unfolded.

 

Modern women are incredibly fortunate for the many advances that we've made since the days when we were just meant to be warm and willing, then wombs, then tied to a kitchen and a bed. Millennia of being "cursed" to have been born female, and today, we get to be equal human beings. It's not like that everywhere in the world, but there are glimmers of hope here and there. I'm grateful every day that my body and my life weren't the property of my father and don't belong to my husband, but are mine to give freely as a member of the human race.

 

However, in ASOIAF, I'd argue George has done a fine job showing the power that women at all levels of society have, and not just the usual suspects like Arya and Brienne. His women characters are extraordinary in that a fair number of them find ways to exercise some agency within the incredible constraints of their society. And his girl characters... he's really created iconic and memorable characters in the Stark girls and Dany.

 

It's one thing to succeed in a society that's set you up with advantages from birth just because you were born male. It's quite another to be restricted and stifled, and find ways to be free anyway.

 

Love my ASOIAF women and girls. Enjoy the male characters, too, but my favorites (Ned, Jon, Davos, Sam, Gendry, etc.) were either born bastards, second sons, smallfolk, or had something else that makes them endearing. It tempers the alpha male entitlement somewhat.

 

 

Don't want to get too far afield but see if she'd like authors like Marion Zimmer Bradley. *The Mists of Avalon* is a take on Camelot centered on Morgana. Haven't re-read it in years but I liked it when I was younger.

 

I'm actually kind of surprised she doesn't like ASOIAF. Part of GRRM's gift is the way that he's really woven in complex female characters in a medieval setting. It's like, he gets it when it comes to being a little girl like Arya, a teen like Sansa or Dany, or a middle aged mom like Catelyn. His women ring true which is why he's got just as many female fans as male. ASOIAF really is a universal story, I think.

 

 

Thank you! Yes, I think it's important to have male and female scientists and scholars. There are some women in Westeros who'd make decent maesters. And others who'd be amazing lords... it's a shame that Olenna Tyrell, for instance, wasn't ruling Highgarden in her own right. But such is the way of the world!

 

Of course, not all women in ASOIAF are awesome or empowered. Textbook example A is Cersei who seems to loathe everyone

 

 

I feel so lucky too. I think that If I had been born in the Middle Ages I would have felt so miserable. First of all, I used to be a tomboy and wouldn't have liked to dress and behave as a lady/ woman commoner. Secondly, the thought of having to wed and have children so young would've been horrible. (But I guess that if I had been a man I would have hated going to war too). I like studying. I'm still studying at 28 a second degree and would have enjoyed being a Maester or something like this. But, again, I would not have got the chance. I like reading about ASOIAF women but I always feel that this inequality must had been harder than it seems for females (both in fiction and in the real world)

[sweetsunray]

30 is an age in which mostly people has some stability already in their lives. At least in my case, despite my problems, I can see myself in the mirror and say "I like what I see: that is who I am". That, I suppose, influences on my sexual life because sex is often about confidence rather than anything else. When I was a teen or was in my 20s I had still too many doubts: "do I look pretty enough?", "I'm fat?" "what people would think of me?". And of course, work and college drama. Now I don't give a damn about those things.

About Martin's portrayal, I like that is very accurate to what many historians say women should be. Someone here post a good article about how to write medieval women and GRRM does it right. Mostly write Brienne clones that disguise themselves as men and have zero femininity or dislike being women. Women back them had many issues to fight, but they were still useful members of their communities and their works and collaboration was appreciated.

They also found themselves a way to rebel against any gender inequality, despite they weren't exactly making a war for it. I think women never needed one movement or organization to realise they shouldn't be treated like minor. I remember, when I was young, whenever people told me "that's a work for men" or "wait for your father return and fix it" I was all "wtf?" before I was aware of the word "feminism". My grandmother and my mother weren't exactly "warriors" or activists and they had some sexist ideologies but they still had their own way. Whenever I got hurt when I was a child, my grandma would tell me "women don't cry: women go to war and tend the soldiers. They need to be even braver than men" (she was married to a soldier). And my mother was the first one in the family with a big important job in a big important clinic. Back in the 80s, it was a huge thing for a woman to have such a job. I guess I've always grown up in a very matriarchal enviroment.

 

Hehe, my mom was a college teacher from the 70s on. Before that a social worker. My parents were married for 5 years before they decided to have a child. They were 30. And then my mom decided to have her tubes tied. They weren't revolutionary hippies. They just decided on what was best for them. My father wasn't a typical man either - he's very sentimental, more than my mom. For a while my mom was the high earner, and now they are on pension, again she has the higher pension. My father never minded that. He often joked about it, still does. He wanted a daughter, not a son. I wasn't allowed to grow my hair until I was a teen, because my father loved short hair on women. And they gave me both boy toys as girl toys. I'd play with cars and lego, as well as with dolls.

 

I had a horrible teacher though when I was 6-7. Well not the first year, because he put me in the class of the new teacher (too many kids for one class the first year of elementary). He played favorites, scapegoated kids. Nasty guy. When I was 6 they sent us a letter home from school for the parents regarding gender roles (early 1980). I read anything that came into my hands and the Dutch word for it was strange so my parents explained it to me. So, when I was 7 and in his class, and being scapegoated often by him (trying to bar me from reading levels, voicing surprise openly on my good results), we had this assignment of drawing who we'd want to be when we'd grow up. Most girls in class drew nurses, ballerinas, princesses... I drew a police woman (in skirt, with short hair). Every wednesday morning he'd hold this talk hour, where we'd sit on cushions, and he picked my drawing, but not for any praise, but to ridicule my choice of profession - policework couldn't possibly be woman's work. I eyed him seriously and berated him by saying, "Sir, that's gender discrimination" (well I used the Dutch "rollenpatroon" word, the one my parents had explained to me). He was silent after that and pretty much ignored me the rest of that year. He was demoted to another school afterwards (and my parents were involved in that, along with other parents). When my mom met him at some teacher convention, years and years later, she told him of my master in industrial design. He was sour like a lemon afterwards. My mom is not a petty woman, but she very much enjoyed telling him that and make him look green with frustration... and I admit I don't mind she told me, gloating.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

 

That must have surely sucked.

 

As a male, I have never had that particular inferiority complex.

 

So much of a woman's life is externalized. As a girl, you're raised to please parents, teachers, and peer groups, and then, you're expected to be attractive to boys, then men, then one particular man who proposes, then marries you.

 

There are girls who say "f*ck it" and do as they like. But almost every human society on the planet punishes them for it, one way or the other...

 

How dare a girl or a young woman not be pretty and nice and agreeable and pleasing?

 

It's why Sansa is so polarizing, IMO. Sansa is a character who is doing exactly what she's meant to do in her society, but the weight of the world falls down on her anyway. She's not in-your-face like Arya or Brienne, but she is just as much a survivor as they are. But Sansa's entire arc is an interesting commentary on the age-old way that girls have been traditionally raised.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Lucky you, but it has little to do with you being male.

 

If you were a male, you'd completely understand where I'm coming from here.

 

Alas...

[Le Cygne]

Also, about Northern women's freedom, I adore the Mormont women telling everyone that their babies were fathered by bears.

 

(If anyone thinks that an adult Arya Stark wouldn't tell everyone that her child was fathered by a direwolf, I've a bridge to sell you...)

 

I loved that, too. Also the thought of Arya telling everyone to kiss off, essentially.