Looking Down on Freys

[Dragon in the North]

Other Lords actively acted against Hoster during the war and yet Walder is unfairly singled out? Well that seems a reasonable cause of resentment to me.

The Houses that sided with the Targaryens lost wealth, land, and power for acting against the Tullys. For staying neutral, Walder Frey received a nickname. Sounds fair to me.

[Lady Sharya]

The Houses that sided with the Targaryens lost wealth, land, and power for acting against the Tullys. For staying neutral, Walder Frey received a nickname. Sounds fair to me.

This is the simplest and best argument I've read here.:)

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Same could be said of every other house Hoster refused.

2) The quote Lady Sharya gave.

3) Hoster didn't attaint Frey for his treachery. He didn't strip Frey of the land the Tullys owned. That's the essence of feudalism. Hoster let's Walder have lands, in return Walder owes his loyalty, soldiers and taxes to him. The Freys seem to be the only house in the Riverlands who have a problem with this.

1) Nope. Only House Frey is the 2nd most powerful House in the Riverlamds. They have no equal there.

 

2) I didn't see it. What post?

 

3) Hoster got his land from the Targs he stabbed in the back. The Freys didn't start off as vassals to House Tully and the Tullys weren't Kings before. Hoster stabbed them in the back for marriage alliances even though the Targs did nothing to him. He pulled a Walder Frey.

[Lee-Sensei]

It might be the opinion of many but how many of them look down openly on the Freys? Walder has hundreds of relatives and many/most of them are married into powerful noble houses. Cersei lannister was also refused as a bride for a Targaryen royal. Now I'm not saying they aren't looked down on, but it seems to me that Walder looks down on others more. Look at how he talks to Catelyn, the daughter of his liege and wife of one of the most powerful men on the continent.

Enough for them to know about it.

[HappilyEverAfter]

1) Nope. Only House Frey is the 2nd most powerful House in the Riverlamds. They have no equal there.
 
2) I didn't see it. What post?
 
3) Hoster got his land from the Targs he stabbed in the back. The Freys didn't start off as vassals to House Tully and the Tullys weren't Kings before. Hoster stabbed them in the back for marriage alliances even though the Targs did nothing to him. He pulled a Walder Frey.

1) And they're also the only house to have made marriage alliances with everyone and have a reputation for being ambitious scumbags. And who would later prove to betray the Tullys for two Lannisters and two castles. Not exactly the ideal house to marry into. And there are Houses of slightly less, equivalent or more power and prestige that would love to marry the future Lord Paramount to the Riverlands and been rebuffed.

2) It's above my last post.

3) Killing your son-in-law, his father, kidnapping his sister and trying to kill his brother isn't reason enough? If you rebel against a mass murderer called the Mad King, you have a good reason.

[Lord Wraith]

One of the problems for Frey is that they have intermarried all over the seven kingdoms.  In any conflict there will certainly be Frey on Frey violence. There are no easy decisions for Walder Frey.  

[Lee-Sensei]

1) And they're also the only house to have made marriage alliances with everyone and have a reputation for being ambitious scumbags. And who would later prove to betray the Tullys for two Lannisters and two castles. Not exactly the ideal house to marry into. And there are Houses of slightly less, equivalent or more power and prestige that would love to marry the future Lord Paramount to the Riverlands and been rebuffed.

2) It's above my last post.

3) Killing your son-in-law, his father, kidnapping his sister and trying to kill his brother isn't reason enough? If you rebel against a mass murderer called the Mad King, you have a good reason.

1) First of all, you can't use hindsight to justify their poor treatment of the Freys. Who aside from the Whents (who are all ready related to the Tullys) is equal to the Freys? I also noticed that you haven't given any real evidence that Hoster treated them well.

 

2) No. It's not. Hoster didn't immediately go to war for Brandon.  He forced a marriage on Ned (understandable) and refused to help them unless Jon married his "soiled" daughter. He pulled a Walder Frey.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3) Killing your son-in-law, his father, kidnapping his sister and trying to kill his brother isn't reason enough? If you rebel against a mass murderer called the Mad King, you have a good reason.

 

Clearly for Hoster it wasn't enough. He, like the Freys, needed a marriage to seal the deal.

 

"Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully." Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling.

[HappilyEverAfter]

1) First of all, you can't use hindsight to justify their poor treatment of the Freys. Who aside from the Whents (who are all ready related to the Tullys) is equal to the Freys? I also noticed that you haven't given any real evidence that Hoster treated them well.
 
2) No. It's not. Hoster didn't immediately go to war for Brandon.  He forced a marriage on Ned (understandable) and refused to help them unless Jon married his "soiled" daughter. He pulled a Walder Frey.

1) The point was that Walder would betray the Tullys in a heartbeat if he got a better deal, even if one of his family married Edmure. And any LP, any house that is 'second best', some of the Houses in the Reach, Vale, Westerlands and North, the Houses in charge of the cities, harbours and towns are Houses that would be suitable for Edmure. The Freys aren't the only house that can and tried to marry Edmure. Moreover, there isn't any evidence that Hoster was nice to the Blackwoods, Vances, Pipers, Brackets etc. and they still followed him.

2) Forcing a marriage to another Lord Paramount for 40,000 swords when they are known to be looking for an heir, most of the fighting is going to occur on your lands and you want to cement an equally productive alliance=/= forcing a marriage on two people below the age of majority who are above your station so that they can cross a bridge for 4000 swords and cement a one-sided alliance that you'll break when a better option comes along when most of the fighting will not occur on your own personal lands.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1) The point was that Walder would betray the Tullys in a heartbeat if he got a better deal, even if one of his family married Edmure. And any LP, any house that is 'second best', some of the Houses in the Reach, Vale, Westerlands and North, the Houses in charge of the cities, harbours and towns are Houses that would be suitable for Edmure. The Freys aren't the only house that can and tried to marry Edmure. Moreover, there isn't any evidence that Hoster was nice to the Blackwoods, Vances, Pipers, Brackets etc. and they still followed him.

Of course he would. What has Hoster done to encourage him to be loyal? He snubbed his last two weddings and has been publicly mocking his most powerful vassal.

 

If the tables were turned and Walder was in a shit storm do you think Hoster would go out of his way to help Walder from the Crown attacking him?

2) Forcing a marriage to another Lord Paramount for 40,000 swords when they are known to be looking for an heir, most of the fighting is going to occur on your lands and you want to cement an equally productive alliance=/= forcing a marriage on two people below the age of majority who are above your station so that they can cross a bridge for 4000 swords and cement a one-sided alliance that you'll break when a better option comes along when most of the fighting will not occur on your own personal lands.

40,000? Where do you get that from. The combined rebel forces at the Trident made up from the Vale, North, Riverlands and the Vale had 35k. How many Riverland men died for the rebels before that?

 

Walder offered Robb a fighting chance, without him his war is over at the Green Fork. Walder was taking just as much risk (I'dactually say a little more) than Hoster was as at the point he agreed to join Robb no one knew about Stannis and Renly rebelling. Robb was asking him to help him take on the Crown with no other support.

 

Of course he wanted something worth while in return, just like Hoster did. Just like Cregan Stark and Borros Baratheon did in the Dance of the Dragons.  Walder's actions are perfctly in keeping with Westeros standards regarding marriage alliances (not so much weddings)

[HappilyEverAfter]

Of course he would. What has Hoster done to encourage him to be loyal? He snubbed his last two weddings and has been publicly mocking his most powerful vassal.

 
If the tables were turned and Walder was in a shit storm do you think Hoster would go out of his way to help Walder from the Crown attacking him?

40,000? Where do you get that from. The combined rebel forces at the Trident made up from the Vale, North, Riverlands and the Vale had 35k. How many Riverland men died for the rebels before that?
 
Walder offered Robb a fighting chance, without him his war is over at the Green Fork. Walder was taking just as much risk (I'dactually say a little more) than Hoster was as at the point he agreed to join Robb no one knew about Stannis and Renly rebelling. Robb was asking him to help him take on the Crown with no other support.
 
Of course he wanted something worth while in return, just like Hoster did. Just like Cregan Stark and Borros Baratheon did in the Dance of the Dragons.  Walder's actions are perfctly in keeping with Westeros standards regarding marriage alliances (not so much weddings)

1)So missing a wedding during a war and when you're ill is a snub? And what has Hoster done to make all of his other houses loyal? Let them keep their land in return for their loyalty. Seems to work for them.

2) The Riverlands can muster 45,000 soldiers. As they're in their home territory, a large number were probably used. They were used in the Battle if the Bells and also in reducing the number of Riverland Houses on the Crown's side and probably in various other sackings and battles that weren't mentioned as Rhaegar's troops approached the Trident.

3) Renly had already crowned himself by the time Robb was at the Twins because Tywin discusses it soon after he defeated Roose (who had sent his troops on a death march after the Twins). And Stannis was on Dragonstone long before the start of the war, it was to be expected he'd take part, probably against the Lannisters, so support was expected.

4) Walder essentially wanted a Stark and a ward for 2000 men plus offloading a squire to cross the Twins, which would significantly increase his prestige. Nowhere near what Hoster asked for.

[LogicalLeopard]

One of the problems for Frey is that they have intermarried all over the seven kingdoms.  In any conflict there will certainly be Frey on Frey violence. There are no easy decisions for Walder Frey.  

Or, you could look at it this way: Before any conflict stars or escalates, any great lord or vassal lord will have to seriously consider their options if they have significant Frey kin, and might perhaps end it altogether before it starts. And bonus: it could provide diplomatic backchannels and considerations. It was handy to have the half-Lannister Cleos Frey in custody to treat with the Lannisters. Even more convenient to have a marriage alliances already with the Lannisters and Boltons when it came to the Red Wedding.

Marrying his kids to everyone is the smartest thing Walter Frey ever did.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1)So missing a wedding during a war and when you're ill is a snub? And what has Hoster done to make all of his other houses loyal? Let them keep their land in return for their loyalty. Seems to work for them.

 

Where is it stated that it was during the war?

 

Considering that Roslin from his 6th wife, was born after Roberts Rebellion, I'm not sure how you think that he married his 7th wife during the war,

 

And yes, we know it was a snub. Cat is pretty clear about the way her father talks about him, That Hoster does not like Walder is not in question, trying to make excuses that he was elsewhere is pointless.

 

How did Hoster let them keep their land? He didn't give them that land and they had done nothing to warrant Hoster or the Crown going to war against them.

 

2) The Riverlands can muster 45,000 soldiers. As they're in their home territory, a large number were probably used. They were used in the Battle if the Bells and also in reducing the number of Riverland Houses on the Crown's side and probably in various other sackings and battles that weren't mentioned as Rhaegar's troops approached the Trident.

Where was this 45k during the War of the Five Kings?

 

And even if he could raise 45k (he casn't) many Riverhouses were Royalists, some like the Freys were neutral. He is not bringing 40k.

 

Why is it so hard for people on this forum to admit they are wrong or simply exaggerated at statement, Hoster did not bring 40k swords to the Rebellion. That is a ridiculous point to make.

3) Renly had already crowned himself by the time Robb was at the Twins because Tywin discusses it soon after he defeated Roose (who had sent his troops on a death march after the Twins). And Stannis was on Dragonstone long before the start of the war, it was to be expected he'd take part, probably against the Lannisters, so support was expected.

Renly discusses it after the battle of Green Fork. That is much later.

 

Stannis was on Dragonstone for all of AGOT, it doesnt mean anything, no one presumed that he was challenging Robert or Joffrey while he was there.

 

Again, rather than argue you were right accept a simple truth. Neither Renly or Stannis had crowned themselves when Cat was discussing terms with Walder.

4) Walder essentially wanted a Stark and a ward for 2000 men plus offloading a squire to cross the Twins, which would significantly increase his prestige. Nowhere near what Hoster asked for.

4,000 men. You seem to have trouble with numbers. And Wards actually work in Robbs favour as he has ready made hostages. wards in medieval times often benefited both parties.

 

Hoster got his daughters married to two Lord Paramounts, he was asking for more.

[Winterstorm]

I'm new to ASoIaF but my impression was that the House wasn't hated but Walder and the current generation. I mean during RR the Riverlands had a civil war, where some Houses like Darry or Goodbrook stayed loyal to Aerys II, while many other Houses supported their Overlord. Walder Frey acted like a coward, breaking his oath too both, Hoster and Aerys II and then joined the winning side. The only reason he didn't participate at the Trident was that he came to late to the battle.

 

15 years later, he first seems to  prevent the Northmen from crossing, because he swore an oath to the crown, than after two marriage pacts, he supports the Tullys/Starks and once he sees that he is on the losing side, he switches back to support the Crown. He only cares for himself and has no problem to betray his Liege Lord/his King, if it fits him. So i can understand why other Houses don't trust them and look down on them. The Red Wedding only enhanced the hate for House Frey in Westeros (e.g. Davos, Yohn Royce etc.).

[Lee-Sensei]

1) The point was that Walder would betray the Tullys in a heartbeat if he got a better deal, even if one of his family married Edmure. And any LP, any house that is 'second best', some of the Houses in the Reach, Vale, Westerlands and North, the Houses in charge of the cities, harbours and towns are Houses that would be suitable for Edmure. The Freys aren't the only house that can and tried to marry Edmure. Moreover, there isn't any evidence that Hoster was nice to the Blackwoods, Vances, Pipers, Brackets etc. and they still followed him.

2) Forcing a marriage to another Lord Paramount for 40,000 swords when they are known to be looking for an heir, most of the fighting is going to occur on your lands and you want to cement an equally productive alliance=/= forcing a marriage on two people below the age of majority who are above your station so that they can cross a bridge for 4000 swords and cement a one-sided alliance that you'll break when a better option comes along when most of the fighting will not occur on your own personal lands.

1) There's no proof that the Freys would betray him if they treated them with respect and mbound them to House Tully in marriage.

 

2) It's more important to bind your most powerful vassal to you than the powerful vassals of other Houses.

 

3) There's no evidence that he disrespected them either.

 

4) Yes it does and the Starks benefitted greatly from that alliance. That's why Robb went back to the Twins on bended knees. Hoster dis the same thing.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 Walder Frey acted like a coward, breaking his oath too both, Hoster and Aerys II and then joined the winning side. The only reason he didn't participate at the Trident was that he came to late to the battle.

 

 

 

He did nothing the Tullys have not done before.

 

When the Dance of the Dragons erupted in 129 AC, the old lord proved loyal to his principles and King Aegon II but he was aged then, and bedridden, and his grandson Ser Elmo defied him and had the gates barred and the banners kept close.

 

The Tullys too have been neutral in a Westeros civil war, only joining in much later.

[HappilyEverAfter]

 
Where is it stated that it was during the war?
 
Considering that Roslin from his 6th wife, was born after Roberts Rebellion, I'm not sure how you think that he married his 7th wife during the war,
 
And yes, we know it was a snub. Cat is pretty clear about the way her father talks about him, That Hoster does not like Walder is not in question, trying to make excuses that he was elsewhere is pointless.
 
How did Hoster let them keep their land? He didn't give them that land and they had done nothing to warrant Hoster or the Crown going to war against them.

 
Where was this 45k during the War of the Five Kings?
 
And even if he could raise 45k (he casn't) many Riverhouses were Royalists, some like the Freys were neutral. He is not bringing 40k.
 
Why is it so hard for people on this forum to admit they are wrong or simply exaggerated at statement, Hoster did not bring 40k swords to the Rebellion. That is a ridiculous point to make.

Renly discusses it after the battle of Green Fork. That is much later.
 
Stannis was on Dragonstone for all of AGOT, it doesnt mean anything, no one presumed that he was challenging Robert or Joffrey while he was there.
 
Again, rather than argue you were right accept a simple truth. Neither Renly or Stannis had crowned themselves when Cat was discussing terms with Walder.
4,000 men. You seem to have trouble with numbers. And Wards actually work in Robbs favour as he has ready made hostages. wards in medieval times often benefited both parties.
 
Hoster got his daughters married to two Lord Paramounts, he was asking for more.

1) Walder's oldest child by his 7th wife is born on 285 Ac. Assuming it took two years for him to have a baby after the wedding, that would put his wedding at 283 Ac, in the middle of RR. This is according to the timeline on the wiki.

2) That 45k was in Seagard/the Twins/the places North of Riverrun and killed during the Battles that occurred when the Lannisters suckerpunched the Riverlands, in the Westerlands and in the Fords. And Brynden still has somewhere between 10-15k left. Yes, maybe I overstated the numbers Hoster brought to the table (forgot to factor in the number of rebellious Riverland lords) but still in the region of 20-30k.

3) Bolton sends his men on a death march to try to surprise the Lannisters, so I'd say he gets their pretty quickly. Quickly enough for word of Renly's coronation to reach a castle like the Twins before it gets to an inn. And Stannis is on KL's doorstep, and definitely a potential claimant to the Throne as Roberts brother. If Cersei sees this then I'm sure Walder can too.

4) Two Freys, two wards. 2000x2=4000. And Wards are more skewed towards Walder. Walder's family is huge enough that a couple if grandchildren won't act as effective hostages but he gets to offload two mouths in a very honourable position. And Catelyn was already engaged to Brandon before he died. It's expected that Ned will take his place.

[Winterstorm]

@thelittledragonthatcould

Sorry, but i've only read ASoIaF so far, so i didn't know this. Still, the quote reads imo, that the old Lord Tully wanted to support someother than his Grandson, which created a conflict between them. I don't remeber House Frey being conflicted about Liege Lord vs the Crown. But it doesn't really matter to me. Staying neutral and then joining the winner is dishonorable and something i dislike. So, if old Lord Tully did the same as Walder Frey, than i dislike him just the same.

[HappilyEverAfter]

1) There's no proof that the Freys would betray him if they treated them with respect and mbound them to House Tully in marriage.
 
2) It's more important to bind your most powerful vassal to you than the powerful vassals of other Houses.
 
3) There's no evidence that he disrespected them either.
 
4) Yes it does and the Starks benefitted greatly from that alliance. That's why Robb went back to the Twins on bended knees. Hoster dis the same thing.

1) Why is it one rule for Freys but another for the other bannermen? Your liege lord let's you keep your lands and title. In return you help him instead of stabbing him in the back.

2) The most powerful vassals who have a proven record of staying at home? Who are going to implode as soon as Walder dies? Who owe you their loyalty anyway? In favour of other houses just as powerful and rich, if not more so, meaning you gain more (and perhaps reliable) allies?

3) A snarky comment (that's true) suddenly means the difference between loyalty or betrayal in a life or death situation?

4) Your logic continues to astound me. Hoster never came to the Twins on bent knees. And the Starks only needed to cross again. Which they paid for by marrying the LP of the Riverlands to a Frey. Again, despite Robb and Edmure being their liege lords, they extorted them yet again. And it wasn't enough.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1) Walder's oldest child by his 7th wife is born on 285 Ac. Assuming it took two years for him to have a baby after the wedding, that would put his wedding at 283 Ac, in the middle of RR. This is according to the timeline on the wiki.

 

Why would you assume it took two years? Now you are just pulling things out of your ass. You made a false claim which was clearly bullshit from the start.

 

Roslin Frey, youngest child to his 6th wife, is 16 when she marries Edmure during the Red Wedding in the middle of the Westeros equivalent of December in 299. That puts her birth in 283 and her mother still alive.

 

That should be proof enough but seen as you seem to particularly stubborn over this fact that you yourself have made up consider that his 7th wife is from the Crownlands who are unlikely to be going to weddings in the middle of the war with the opposite side.

 

2) That 45k was in Seagard/the Twins/the places North of Riverrun and killed during the Battles that occurred when the Lannisters suckerpunched the Riverlands, in the Westerlands and in the Fords. And Brynden still has somewhere between 10-15k left. Yes, maybe I overstated the numbers Hoster brought to the table (forgot to factor in the number of rebellious Riverland lords) but still in the region of 20-30k.

 

More like 10-20k given that Houses are on both sides and some would be neutral or some supporting Hoster would not give their full amount.

3) Bolton sends his men on a death march to try to surprise the Lannisters, so I'd say he gets their pretty quickly. Quickly enough for word of Renly's coronation to reach a castle like the Twins before it gets to an inn. And Stannis is on KL's doorstep, and definitely a potential claimant to the Throne as Roberts brother. If Cersei sees this then I'm sure Walder can too.

AGOT after the battle of the Green Fork NOT BEFORE IT:

 

"Our position is worse than you know," his father went on. "It would seem we have a new king."

Ser Kevan looked poleaxed. "A new - who? What have they done to Joffrey?"

The faintest flicker of distaste played across Lord Tywin's thin lips. "Nothing . . . yet. My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown.

 

 

When Robb was at the Twins they had no idea about Renly crowning himself. Tywin himself only finds out after the battle, not before it.

4) Two Freys, two wards. 2000x2=4000. And Wards are more skewed towards Walder. Walder's family is huge enough that a couple if grandchildren won't act as effective hostages but he gets to offload two mouths in a very honourable position. And Catelyn was already engaged to Brandon before he died. It's expected that Ned will take his place.

No, the wards are more skewered towards keeping him in line. They are glorified hostages at Wintefell much like Theon was.

 

You are being hugely fucking ridiculous if you think the Freys sent them to Winterfell so they had two less mouths to feed. Walder offered fat Waldas weight in gold as a marriage dowries, feeding the family is not an issue.

 

And it is not expected. When Tywald Lannister died Ellyn Reyne had to convince him to marry her, it was not a guaranteed match. Ned had no obligation to marry Cat, the fact that it was a great match and he needed her fathers support is why he did it, not because of some law.