slant Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Excuse you? He did not. He helped bring them in mortal danger, quite actively so. Though not on purpose to be fair. Ok, he didn't kill them when he could, and when he thinks he is no kinslayer to himself, he is thinking about Bran and Rickon as kin. Isn't that cute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 They do if it's a choice between their own life (and potentially the lives of some loved ones) and the child and I'm not argueing about his redemption arc, I don't think he has a redemption arc because I don't think he needs one. the reason he's on my list, among others is because he's the one person who questions the whole vow system and contemplates the fakeness of honor. He breaks his vows to do the right thing unlike characters like Ned and Barristan who are therefor not on my list, my list that includes more people than just jaime btw. If you don't agree that's fine but I happen to value innocent lives over honor. Maybe he shouldn't be so reckless. Decent people don't do things which put them into a situation where they can throw a child out of a window. I don't really care how he justifies it, it is a vile and evil act, and disqualifies him from being "the best human being". He can question the vow system all he likes, but such a brutal act as throwing a child out of a window prevents him from being the "best human being". For that same reason I don't say any of my favourites qualify. They are capable of very decent and humane acts, but various other things they have done disqualify him from this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Jaime wasn't really a child at the time, in that world you're either a child or an adult, there was no adolescence. He was old enough to know better. And he certainly shouldn't have let Tyrion live with the lie as long as he did. How do you know Barristan didn't have a problem with Aerys' treatment of Rhaelle as well? And was told the exact same thing Jaime was by another member of KG. Again, it was about the wildfire. Jaime didn't kill Aerys for what he did to the Starks, or rape, or anything else, it was over the wildfire. Barristan never knew about it so it's unfair to say he just stood by while Jaime acted. I disagree but this is a personal opinion anyway so it's not like we're gonna get out of it. As far as I've seen Barristan is all about honor, that usually doesn't go together with doing the right thing. Is there anything in Barristan's chapters that points towards him even thinking off breaking his vows to protect the innocent, if there is, I'll gladly take my words about him back. Again I have to disagree, Jaime recalls "going away inside" when he had to stand by while both the rape and the executions of Brandon and Rickard stark were taking place, "going away inside" is what victims of trauma do to deal with their trauma. It was about the wildfire too, and Aerys commanding Jaime to kill his own father, but jaime considered it justice also for all the horrible things Aerys has done, it was him saying "fuck these vows, everyone might tell me that it's the right thing to keep to them but clearly it's not" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Sandor says hi. oh yeah forgot about Sandor I'm not super invested in him though, I'm not sure if I would consider him good enough to be on my list of best people. I definitly like that he questions the honor system but there's also him kidnapping Arya and so on and he does horrible things for Joffrey for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Maybe he shouldn't be so reckless. Decent people don't do things which put them into a situation where they can throw a child out of a window. I don't really care how he justifies it, it is a vile and evil act, and disqualifies him from being "the best human being". He can question the vow system all he likes, but such a brutal act as throwing a child out of a window prevents him from being the "best human being". For that same reason I don't say any of my favourites qualify. They are capable of very decent and humane acts, but various other things they have done disqualify him from this That's your opinion, I don't have such a high opinion of humanity, everyone is flawed, and I don't expect anyone who gets into a similar situation as Jaime to do any better so for me it doesn't disqualify him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Dunk and Brienne Davos, Ned, Jon, Bran, Qhorin, Septon Meribald, Elder Brother, Brienne, Dunk, Rodrik Harlaw. Bran.. kind of mind raped Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOne-EyedHound Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Davos, Brienne, Edmure, Jaime, Sam, Jon, DoranJaime? The guy threw a child out of a window hoping it would kill him. How can you possibly believe he is a good human being? You could bring in the whole time period excuses as much as you want, it still doesn't make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Dunk and Brienne Bran.. kind of mind raped Hodor.Qhorin tortured Wildlings to death too. I guess torture is fine as long as your name isn't Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Jaime? The guy threw a child out of a window hoping it would kill him. How can you possibly believe he is a good human being? You could bring in the whole time period excuses as much as you want, it still doesn't make it right. as I just told someone else, I don't have a very high opinion of humanity, which means I don't think there's a lot of people out there who would have made a better choice in his situation and I don't expect them too. So this has no baring on my opinion of Jaime. The reason he's in my top of best characters are his good qualities like being against sexism and understanding the fakeness of the honor code and the vow system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 as I just told someone else, I don't have a very high opinion of humanity, which means I don't think there's a lot of people out there who would have made a better choice in his situation and I don't expect them too. So this has no baring on my opinion of Jaime. The reason he's in my top of best characters are his good qualities like being against sexism and understanding the fakeness of the honor code and the vow system. Thanks to Brienne Jamie may be climbing out of the cesspit he was in, but he is still covered in excrement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftheking Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I don't think there's a lot of people out there who would have made a better choice in his situation and I don't expect them too. If you have read the books you know VERY WELL that Ned, Jon, Robb, Brienne, Davos and probably many others would have NEVER made this choice, because they are just not cold blooded selfish killers like that. It is far from confirmed that even Cersei (who I definitely consider evil) would have thrown him. It doesn't matter what you think about yourself or people you know, we are talking Westeros. Though if you honestly think people in ASoIaF tend to be morally superior to real people... I hope you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Sam, not Stannis's lap dog Davos.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateral Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Daenerys has the best intentions, Davos is the best person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Brienne is a better person than Davos imo. He's got a few marks against him (cheating on his wife, following Stannis :P), whereas I honestly don't think Brienne has any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 If you have read the books you know VERY WELL that Ned, Jon, Robb, Brienne, Davos and probably many others would have NEVER made this choice, because they are just not cold blooded selfish killers like that. It is far from confirmed that even Cersei (who I definitely consider evil) would have thrown him. It doesn't matter what you think about yourself or people you know, we are talking Westeros. Though if you honestly think people in ASoIaF tend to be morally superior to real people... I hope you are wrong. First of all, no, I don't know that and I don't think they would have made a better choice than Jaime, maybe Davos he gets the benefit of the doubt but no one else. and as I said, I don't expect them to. and no, I don't think the people in westeros are better than people in real life, in fact, they are generally worse, because they have worse things to deal with. the world has definitly improved and over time we've gotten more empathy but that still doesn't mean that I think many people in our world would make a better choice than Jaime, we're just lucky that in first world countries the chances we'll ever have to make a choice like that are very very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateral Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Brienne is a better person than Davos imo. He's got a few marks against him (cheating on his wife, following Stannis :P), whereas I honestly don't think Brienne has any. he did? totally missed or forgot about that. I wouldn't hold following Stannis against him, quite the opposite actually. Stannis has always treated Davos fantastic and therefore Davos is loyal to him. And he supports only Stannis, not the idiotic R'hllor religion. :rolleyes: at Jaime being a good person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Qhorin tortured Wildlings to death too. I guess torture is fine as long as your name isn't Daenerys. Most definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 So, not the smartest, not the most political savvy and the best war commander with the best chance to win. That's not what the OP asks for as I understand it. There are no saints in the books. Even Septon Meribald is not unblemished, and errors of judgement cannot be avoided. But at least for me the character must have walked the path of redemption from before GoT for me to be nominated here. The children's morality is still in development, and questionable with several of them at the moment. And while Hodor wouldn't hurt a fly, his mind is like that of a babe. So, for me the best human being out there is Septon Meribald Davos Beric Dondarrion Edmure - sure he's not a strategic genius, he's not a war-time leader; but he's one of the few LPs out there who cares for his people Ned Ellara Sand Jon Snow Samwell Brienne Ser Bonnifer Hasty Ser Illifer & Ser Creighton Longbough: the 2 old boasting hedge knights that share fire and food with Brienne and act as bodyguards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOne-EyedHound Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 he did? totally missed or forgot about that. I wouldn't hold following Stannis against him, quite the opposite actually. Stannis has always treated Davos fantastic and therefore Davos is loyal to him. And he supports only Stannis, not the idiotic R'hllor religion. :rolleyes: at Jaime being a good person.Why is the R'hllor religion idiotic? It's one of the only religions to prove that it's actually the real deal. the religion is also the only religion doing anything against the real threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Why is the R'hllor religion idiotic? It's one of the only religions to prove that it's actually the real deal. the religion is also the only religion doing anything against the real threat. A religion obsessed with bringing a summer that never ends (the afterlife) after making everyone be reborn in light (burnt alive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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