Heresy 177

[wolfmaid7]

Nothing you said proves that he chose Jon, only that he thought about it...

 

The posters on this board often fail to see GRRM's misdirection...

You  wanted proof.

 

1.He said he was and that his mind was made up about it.

 

2.Cat believed his mind was made up about it.

 

3.Your assertion that he would name Cat though she "just released the Kingslayer" makes no sense

 

4.There's no progresion of the plot with regards to WF if Cat was named.

 

6.I'm not saying that he did name Jon only that the clues hint toward Jon or Arya

 

7. You have failed miserably to present any logic or clues as to why he named Cat except your "feeling"

 

8.I don't throw my hat behind emotion,i throw my hat behind something tangible of which you have none in this case.I'm sorry dude that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Cat was Robb's Successor, plain & simple...

 

--

What, is this a strong woman theory that Wolfmaid is not not immediately jumping behind???

 

Don't stand behind :bs: which at this point is what this arguement is........unless you have something to stand on beside an imaginary conversation.

 

Ah well,there's the problem...

Bingo

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

[Okay, so I'm just going to go ahead and paste some of my thoughts on the topic that i've post elsewhere, but are relevant her to the issue of the Builder, Bran Stark, the Last Hero, and the Night's King. This is mostly about King Bran theory, and has a rather serious tone, but I hope you find it enlightening]:

 

Few of the original Great Houses of Westeros got that way by historical accident. In almost every single one of their histories, they have some great “Thing” that empowered them to conquer their neighbors and hold that position through the ages. The nature of that “Thing” defines the character of the family and the way that they wield power.

 

For one House, the source of their power is a castle that is immune to siege and sits on actual mountain of gold. Another came to power through the strength of a warrior queen and the cultural knowledge of her exiled people. Yet another appears to have descended from a fertility demi-god that took offerings in exchange for bountiful harvests and healthy children.

 

House Stark built the seat of their power around a huge talking tree that takes human sacrifices.

 

So, there’s no room for an “if” in the statement, “It’s almost as if Winterfell is alive.” It is alive. It is a structure that projects clear signs of sentience. When it does so, most of the time it is to tell non-Starks and non-northerners that they are not welcome within its most sacred spaces: the godswood and the Crypts.

 

“Catelyn had never liked this godswood…It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it...”-Catelyn, AGOT

 

“[Tyrion] remembered their godswood… That wood was Winterfell. It was the north. I never felt so out of place as I did when I walked there, so much an unwelcome intruder.”-Tyrion, ACOK

 

“Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine.”-Theon, ACOK

 

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here…I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. -Jon, ASOS

 

The Kings of Winter in the crypts bear swords on their laps, the traditional denial of guest right. This refusal of entry is sensed by non-Starks such as Osha, Theon, and Hodor, who are afraid to enter, but Bran very pointedly is not only not afraid, he feels safe and welcome among them: “He had never feared the crypts. They were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known one day he would lie here, too.”

 

The fact that Bran the Builder chose to build his castle around an already living weirwood, that his descendants gave human sacrifices to that tree, that the ground is not leveled, that it has been expanded over the centuries in an organic, asymmetrical way and is the stronger for that, that the Kings of Winter entomb themselves at the roots of that “monstrous stone tree” in a way that parallels the greenseer and the weirwood, with wolves carved in at their side no less…well, the reader can regard all this in a few different ways.

 

The reader could decide to separate Bran and the question of his future from the historical context of his own family. They could regard the associations of Bran’s name, the fact that it is also the name of the first King of Winter, its meaning in Welsh (”Raven”), the similarity of his plotline to both the Last Hero and the Welsh king Bran the Blessed, as being an “erroneous” theory that has resulted from reading to much into word choice, as GRRM recently declared many fan theories to be at a recent conference.

 

The reader could do that.

 

Or, the reader could read the legacy of Stark kingship, of Starks in Winterfell, not as having green magic as addendum, an aside, but as essential to it as the gold of Casterly Rock is to the Lannisters. The simplest and most holistic explanation for the connection between the Last Hero and Bran the Builder is that they were same person, and the reason the story of the former was cut so short was a deliberate attempt by GRRM to not totally give the show away so early on.

 

Perhaps the Builder/LH was born a greenseer before he searched for the Singers; perhaps he was given that power then and there when he finally reached them. Either way, the magic he gained through whatever pact he made with them also made Winterfell and the Wall possible, and “their ancient magics [won] back what the armies of men had lost.” He found them in their “hollow hill”, (much like the ones Bran and the BwB are in now, weirwood throne and all) and there he and his descendants were laid to rest, while the castle above was built on and around its weirwood grove. That is why the ground was never leveled, and why its construction is so irregular. It is by the virtue of the fact that Winterfell is a melding of castle and weirwood, and that its first ruler was both king and greenseer, that it has endured through the ages. Despite the brutal winters and razings, it has continued to grow and thrive, and House Stark with it. Magic and politics are not separate for the North, because the Starks’ political power has traditionally flowed from magic. Greenseeing and demi-godhood does not separate Bran from Stark kingship; it is the basis of his claim. There is no greater source of knowledge on Winterfell and how to govern it than the heart tree. And the only one who can tap into it is Bran.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I think these thoughts here are also relevant to the discussion, to strengthen the case that the Builder and the Last Hero were the same person, and that he was a greenseer who used magic to create Winterfell, a sentient monolith that is a fusion of tree and castle:

 

Bran’s vision of the woman who emerged from the black pool

I was pondering one of Bran’s visions during his last ADWD during a re-read so as to make some comparisons to Dany’s:

 

a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her."

 

Then a certain connection struck me: This woman sounds like the Stark daughter Bael the Bard “seduced”:

 

one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.”
“Bael had brought her back?”
“No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says… though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote.

 

There is already a very strongly evidenced connection between the Crypts of Winterfell and Gorne’s Way, but in particular there seems to be a link between the strange black pool, and the “swift black river” underneath the the Cave of the Three-Eyed-Crow. The godswood, like all of Winterfell, is warmed by hot springs, but the pool is described as “cool” even in the depths of summer. Osha playfully suggests that there might be something significant at the bottom, if there’s a bottom at all in the strictest sense:

 

How can you swim in there?” he asked Osha. “Isn’t it cold?”

“As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold.” Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. “I wanted to touch the bottom.”

“I never knew there was a bottom.”

“Might be there isn’t.” She grinned.

 

The placement of the vision also fits in terms of time for it be the Stark daughter: before Ned’s generation and after the “A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows” who sounds like the Brandon Snow, Torrhens’s brother who wanted to use weirwood arrows and stealth to slay the dragons (”there is power in a living wood, a power as strong as fire”), thus after the Conquest. Brandon the Daughterless was a lord, not a king.

 

What Ygritte suggested was right: the Stark daughter didn’t love Bael, as he always boasted in his songs. He “stole” her in the classic Free Folk fashion and raped her. She hid in the crypts (or otherwise used them to return home with Gorne’s Way) and then emerged from the dark pool in the godswood and prayed that her son would avenger her by killing Bael, which is exactly what he did.

[Black Crow]

 

Few of the original Great Houses of Westeros got that way by historical accident. In almost every single one of their histories, they have some great “Thing” that empowered them to conquer their neighbors and hold that position through the ages. The nature of that “Thing” defines the character of the family and the way that they wield power.

 

For one House, the source of their power is a castle that is immune to siege and sits on actual mountain of gold. Another came to power through the strength of a warrior queen and the cultural knowledge of her exiled people. Yet another appears to have descended from a fertility demi-god that took offerings in exchange for bountiful harvests and healthy children.

 

House Stark built the seat of their power around a huge talking tree that takes human sacrifices...

 

 

You might find this one of relevance :cool4: :  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104003-heresy-93-winterfell/

[Black Crow]

Or, the reader could read the legacy of Stark kingship, of Starks in Winterfell, not as having green magic as addendum, an aside, but as essential to it as the gold of Casterly Rock is to the Lannisters. The simplest and most holistic explanation for the connection between the Last Hero and Bran the Builder is that they were same person, and the reason the story of the former was cut so short was a deliberate attempt by GRRM to not totally give the show away so early on.

 

I really have to disagree with you here. Bran is offered the story of Bob the Builder, who raised Winterfell and some said the Wall, but declines and is offered the story of the Last Hero instead with not a hint in the conversation that they are connected.

 

There's certainly a reason for cutting the story off short, but its concealing the price paid to the three-fingered tree-huggers for their help

[MaesterSam]

 

Hmmm... I HIGHLY disagree with the bolded sentence above... When you want to keep something a secret, you don't tell people... 

 

True, Cat is unlikely to run tell Robert, but she is stupid enough to write her sister in an effort to remove the shame that is hanging over her marriage...

Perhaps. Catelyn has certainly shown poor judgement on other occasions. But if Rhaegar is not the father, why hide Jon's identity at all?  And even if he is, why not tell JON? This is the most puzzling question for me. Jon is unlikely to give away his own secret, and if he did, then whatever follows could hardly be blamed on Ned. So for some reason Ned doesn't want Jon to know who his parents were. This makes me think the secrecy is not to protect Jon, but to prevent some other bad outcome should he find out who he is.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps. Catelyn has certainly shown poor judgement on other occasions. But if Rhaegar is not the father, why hide Jon's identity at all?  And even if he is, why not tell JON? This is the most puzzling question for me. Jon is unlikely to give away his own secret, and if he did, then whatever follows could hardly be blamed on Ned. So for some reason Ned doesn't want Jon to know who his parents were. This makes me think the secrecy is not to protect Jon, but to prevent some other bad outcome should he find out who he is.

 

To be honest I think there's a lot of over-analysis going on here. The fact of the matter is that at a not very distant point and for reasons of his own GRRM is going to reveal who Jon Snow's mother was. It's simply easier until then to leave her identity a secret known only to Lord Eddard, rather than have have half the castle knowing it and speaking in code

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I really have to disagree with you here. Bran is offered the story of Bob the Builder, who raised Winterfell and some said the Wall, but declines and is offered the story of the Last Hero instead with not a hint in the conversation that they are connected.

 

There's certainly a reason for cutting the story off short, but its concealing the price paid to the three-fingered tree-huggers for their help

I read the exact opposite meaning into Bran turning down the story of the Builder.

 

Bran, over the course of the narrative, consistently gets what he does not want, but is compelled to accept. Remember, the boy we meet on the first chapter of the first book first and foremost dreams of knighthood. Lordship is presented to him by his father, in his first extended conversation together as a duty that he must perform, but Bran expresses no desire to do it at all.

 

His fall from the tower is, in parallel to the Fisher King's maiming, not just the beginning of his kingdom's ruin and physical breaking, but his psychological and spiritual breaking as well. What follows is a series of what I term "forced unions" to different entities that he feels a deep connection to, but is afraid to accept. In every case, an older male presides over the "wedding". The first union, the most fundamental and the one that the others build on, is to Winterfell:

 

Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well.
It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.-AGOT

 

Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too. -ACOK

 

But he at first resists it, with Maester Luwin endeavoring to train his charge in the proper of hearing of audiences and dealing with vassals:

 

“‘Listen, and it may be that you will learn something of what lordship is all about,’ Maester Luwin had said.”- Bran, ACOK

 

Why must he waste his time listening to old men speak of things he only half understood? Because you’re broken, a voice reminded him. A lord on his cushioned chair might be crippled, but not a knight on his destier. Besides, it was his duty. -ACOK

 

The next union is to wolf, which evokes the imagery of marriage in a much more explicit fashion:

 

Did you dream of a wolf?”
He was making Bran angry. “I don’t have to tell you my dreams. I’m the prince. I’m the Stark in Winterfell.”
”Was it Summer?”
 ”You be quiet.”
 ”The night of the harvest feast, you dreamed you were Summer in the godswood, didn’t you?”
 ”Stop it!” Bran shouted. Summer slid toward the weirwood, his white teeth bared.
 Jojen Reed took no mind. “When I touched Summer, I felt you in him. just as you are in him now.”
 ”You couldn’t have. I was in bed. I was sleeping.”
 ”You were in the godswood, all in grey.”
 ”It was only a bad dream … “
 Jojen stood. “I felt you. I felt you fall. Is that what scares you, the falling?”
 ”Do you fall every night, Bran?” Joien asked quietly.
A low rumbling growl rose from Summer’s throat, and there was no play in it. He stalked forward, all teeth and hot eyes. Meera stepped between the wolf and her brother, spear in hand. “Keep him back, Bran.”
 ”Jojen is making him angry.”
“It’s your anger, Bran,” her brother said. “Your fear.”
”It isn’t. I’m not a wolf.”

 

Bran is being confronted in the godswood, and under the heart tree, where contracts and vows of all kinds are said, because as Bran tells us, "no man can lie while in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.”

 

Specifically, in the North marital vows are said in front of the heart tree. Just before Jojen confronts Bran about his warg dream the night before he is, “sitting cross-legged under the weirwood, Jojen Reed regarded him solemnly.“

 

It is very similar to simple ceremony we see when Ramsay Bolton marries “Arya”. He is refusing to be "wed to the wolf", and as Haggon tells us, "Wolves and women wed for life."

 

Jojen repeatedly enforces the warging connection:

 

“Tell me who you are.”
 ”Bran,” he said sullenly. Bran the Broken. “Brandon Stark.” The cripple boy. “The Prince of Winterfell.” Of Winterfell burned and tumbled, its people scattered and slain. The glass gardens were smashed, and hot water gushed from the cracked walls to steam beneath the sun. How can you be the prince of someplace you might never see again?
 ”And who is Summer?” Jojen prompted.
 ”My direwolf.” He smiled. “Prince of the green.”
 ”Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?”
 ”Two,“ he sighed, ”and one.

 

“Two and one.” That is the definition of a marriage. It is often remarked on a wedding day that “two families become one,” and that connection between two spouses is, in Aristotle’s words, “A single soul inhabiting two bodies.”

 

For being the special chosen of the Old Gods, Bran at the beginning of the story is incredibly uneasy around the sacred weirwoods:

 

“The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands.”- Bran, AGOT.

 

Once Bran reaches the Cave of the CotF, the imagery of marriage and wedding becomes more prominent in Bran’s character arc and identity, with Bloodraven telling him, “Your blood makes you a greenseer…[the weirwood paste] will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

 

The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. “What is it?”

“A paste of weirwood seeds.”

“Will this make me a greenseer?”

“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

Bran did want to be married to a tree … but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. A greenseer.

He ate.

 

That he makes the marriage to the tree equivalent to marriage to a person is, in the context of his crush on Meera, very telling and enforces the parallel.

 

So thus, I draw from Bran thinking that the story of the Builder isn't his "favorite" to be if anything significant of how important it is to his future. Most important, it is the first story offered to be told him after his fall from the tower and awakening from the coma.

 

The different stages of his training are all meant to reshape him into the Rebuilder, the heir to his ancestor's work and the only one who truly understands what Winterfell is down to its very stones and trees. The keeping of the weirwoods, giving them human sacrifices, and conquering the North to solidify it in preparation for the next Long Night; these things were all a part of the pact the Builder/Last Hero made with the Singers.

[Black Crow]

Don't get me wrong here. I'm rather in agreement with the overall thrust of your argument as to Bran's story arc and ultimate destiny. I just think that a clear distinction is drawn between Bob the Builder and the Last Hero in that session. Bran knows the story of the Last Hero. He's heard it before and knows that the children helped him in the end and at no point does he or Old Nan link him with Bob the Builder. 

 

When he's offered the choice we're told through Bran's thoughts that Bob built Winterfell and perhaps even the Wall, but that's all. Bran want's to hear about the Last Hero who is somebody different.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I just think that a clear distinction is drawn between Bob the Builder and the Last Hero in that session.

Oh, I understand now.

 

the Builder and the Last Hero being the same person whose story was distorted by time and memory is my preferred theory, but I'm open to other possibilities about it. I think its possible that Jon might imitate the LH myth by heading north to confront the Heart of Winter and/or find the Singers, and there find Bran, and then help bring him back home in a deal he makes with the Singers. The latter I think, view the Others as a natural counterbalance to humankind, who otherwise would be like "deer [who] overrun a wood without wolves to hunt them."

 

There's much more in the way of parallels between Jon and Bloodraven and the Night's King than there is for Bran.

[Voice]

Finally some important topics! Kidding folks, but yeah, this is definitely my cup of tea...

 

Magic and politics are not separate for the North, because the Starks’ political power has traditionally flowed from magic.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with my musings, but you'll find them much the same as your own interpretation. I loved all of this, but particularly this part I didn't snip away. It cannot be overstated for House Stark, but I think it is applicable to all First Men Houses, particularly those who keep the Old Gods.

 

 

 

I think these thoughts here are also relevant to the discussion, to strengthen the case that the Builder and the Last Hero were the same person, and that he was a greenseer who used magic to create Winterfell, a sentient monolith that is a fusion of tree and castle:

 

snip

 

Yup. You're speaking my language.

 

 

I really have to disagree with you here. Bran is offered the story of Bob the Builder, who raised Winterfell and some said the Wall, but declines and is offered the story of the Last Hero instead with not a hint in the conversation that they are connected.

 

There's certainly a reason for cutting the story off short, but its concealing the price paid to the three-fingered tree-huggers for their help

 

And you think Old Nan would change gears and tell Bran the story he "wants to hear"? No. In fact, in this passage, Bran refuses any stories, but Old Nan continues to prattle on anyway, uninterrupted.

 

This chapter also hints at a connection between all the Brans, in the eyes of Old Nan, no less.

 

 

I read the exact opposite meaning into Bran turning down the story of the Builder.

 

snip

 

As you should, in my opinion. The world book seems to equate them as well:

 

WB: Dawn Age:

 

Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

 

AGOT: Bran

 

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.

 

Don't get me wrong here. I'm rather in agreement with the overall thrust of your argument as to Bran's story arc and ultimate destiny. I just think that a clear distinction is drawn between Bob the Builder and the Last Hero in that session. Bran knows the story of the Last Hero. He's heard it before and knows that the children helped him in the end and at no point does he or Old Nan link him with Bob the Builder. 

 

When he's offered the choice we're told through Bran's thoughts that Bob built Winterfell and perhaps even the Wall, but that's all. Bran want's to hear about the Last Hero who is somebody different.

 

Just so, in Bran's mind. This is the obfuscation GRRM desires. Then, he goes on to hint, via Old Nan:

 

 

ASOS: Bran IV

 

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

 

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

 

Mayhaps he built it. After all, his name was forbidden after he was found to be making sacrifices to the Others. Mayhaps that's why he's called the "Last Hero" in certain stories... stories connected to his fall... and Brandon at in daylight. After all, he "was only a man by light of day." It makes sense that by night, he would be known by other names.

 

the Builder and the Last Hero being the same person whose story was distorted by time and memory is my preferred theory,

 

Same here. Tis the nature of oral history.

[WhitewolfStark]

And you think Old Nan would change gears and tell Bran the story he "wants to hear"? No. In fact, in this passage, Bran refuses any stories, but Old Nan continues to prattle on anyway, uninterrupted.

 

This chapter also hints at a connection between all the Brans, in the eyes of Old Nan, no less.

Finally some important topics! Kidding folks, but yeah, this is definitely my cup of tea...

 

The TV show actually did a good job adapting that scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvObuhT7Kpw

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

WB: Dawn Age:

 

Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

 

AGOT: Bran

 

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.

 

 

Just so, in Bran's mind. This is the obfuscation GRRM desires. Then, he goes on to hint, via Old Nan:

 

 

ASOS: Bran IV

 

After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

 

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

 

Mayhaps he built it. After all, his name was forbidden after he was found to be making sacrifices to the Others. Mayhaps that's why he's called the "Last Hero" in certain stories... stories connected to his fall... and Brandon at in daylight. After all, he "was only a man by light of day." It makes sense that by night, he would be known by other names.

:stunned:

 

This is brilliant.

 

:bowdown:

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Also relevant here is that the Night's King was said to "with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will."

 

It's possible that what Night's King did was use greenseeing and skinchanging to control them as Bran can with Hodor. Remember, Bloodraven seems to have the power to control many different ravens at once. This may not have been a literal skinchange every single Black Brother constantly, but possibly only a handful of them who in turn forced the others to obey. It's also possible that they were killed, and then controlled as Bloodraven is suggested to be doing to Coldhands.

[Voice]

 

The TV show actually did a good job adapting that scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvObuhT7Kpw

 

The casting was perfect for Old Nan, though she should be blind. Love her voice nonetheless.

 

Thanks for the link! I never noticed they added Ser Duncan the Tall. In the books it was:

 

"I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder," Old Nan said. "That was always your favorite."

 

D&D changed it to "Ser Duncan the Tall" instead... Hmmm... mayhaps they didn't want the connection between BtB and LH to be so obvious. :cool4:

 

 

:stunned:

 

This is brilliant.

 

:bowdown:

 

Thanks :) You might dig this theory about his sword.

[Voice]

Also relevant here is that the Night's King was said to "with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will."

 

It's possible that what Night's King did was use greenseeing and skinchanging to control them as Bran can with Hodor. Remember, Bloodraven seems to have the power to control many different ravens at once. This may not have been a literal skinchange every single Black Brother constantly, but possibly only a handful of them who in turn forced the others to obey. It's also possible that they were killed, and then controlled as Bloodraven is suggested to be doing to Coldhands.

 

Here, we diverge in our interpretations. I see the "strange sorceries" as completely alien (inhuman... other...), rather than being related to the green powers of the Old Gods. And I don't think BR is controlling Coldhands...

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Thanks :) You might dig this theory about his sword.

And you friend, might dig this literary analysis I did of Bran's connections to the Fisher King.

 

:)

[wolfmaid7]

 
Here, we diverge in our interpretations. I see the "strange sorceries" as completely alien (inhuman... other...), rather than being related to the green powers of the Old Gods. And I don't think BR is controlling Coldhands...

That would be the definition of strange sorceries, it would be alien to them.Think of the label Haggon attributed to Skinchanging a human.Residual cultural memory which came from somewhere. I doubt he used any magical means at all.

Seeing as for him to be able to do that the NW members mentally had to be on par with Hodor or they were dying or dead. I think this may be a case of they left him holding the bag.

I second you on BR not controlling CHs.

ETA: It may not have even been him but some feminine wiles courtesy of his queen.

[Voice]

And you friend, might dig this literary analysis I did of Bran's connections to the Fisher King.

 

:)

 

I'll definitely check it out. :cheers:

 

 

That would be the definition of strange sorceries, it would be alien to them.Think of the label Haggon attributed to Skinchanging a human.Residual cultural memory which came from somewhere. I doubt he used any magical means at all.

Seeing as for him to be able to do that the NW members mentally had to be on par with Hodor or they were dying or dead. I think this may be a case of they left him holding the bag.

 

It seems quite unlikely to me that a single skinchanger could ensnare an entire brotherhood of warriors, with only skinchanging. I'm thinking there's a missing angle and ingredient. One that the Others possess.

 

 

I second you on BR not controlling CHs.

 

:cheers: glad we can clink on something :)

 

 

ETA: It may not have even been him but some feminine wiles courtesy of his queen.

 

The woman is important too. :cool4:

 

If Hodor's eyes begin to change blue, as a side-effect of Bran's body-snatching (something we should definitely keep an eye on), I will jump ship and join your team. And I'm totally open to that prospect. Honestly. I am not married to my beliefs. I only see too many differences between Otherism and Greenseerism. Until Hodor demonstrates such symptoms... or mayhaps his skin begins to change to ice.... Nope. Separate powers.

[Lady Dyanna]

I think that you have fallen into one of GRRM's traps... Just because Cat felt felt defeated does not mean that she was defeated...
 
I cannot provide a quote because I don't have any books, but somewhere Cat is talking to the Mormont woman (who would definitely know who Rob chose because she signed the document), & it is suggested that Cat, not Jon was named successor...
 
Rob very much wanted to please his mother, otherwise he would not have asked her her opinion... Again, feeling defeated does not = defeat...

Here you suggest that the conversation followed the singing of the will.

There are a lot of other clues suggesting that he chose Cat... there is a later conversation between Cat & the Mormont Woman where Mormont suggested that Cat was actually named Successor...

I'll give you this one. It's possible that you just meant after Robb and Cat's conversation, but you've not exactly clear on that.

Knowing the way GRRM writes, Can you not read the quote that you included above & tell that Cat's thoughts are probably wrong?
 
The later quote with the Mormont Woman speaks of Strong Women being thrust into positions of Leadership...
 
So yeah, Cat was definitely named heir, not Jon...

Same with this one. Although I will point out that nowhere in the conversation does it refer to a leadership position, but rather to the strength and bravery of women.

Instead of heir, we should be using successor for this conversation...
 
Well, I gave my evidence upthread for why I believe that Cat was named successor, not Jon... There are some pretty big hints in ACOKs... As of right now, the books are not 100% clear... 
 
Do you have any evidence to add that it was Jon who was named successor?
 
---
After Maege Mormont Signs Robb's Decree, she has a discussion with Cat about strong women being thrust into leadership positions... I take this as a really strong hint that it was not Jon, but Cat who was named as Robb's successor...
 
You are usually the first person to jump on the bandwagon in support of any theory that elevates the status of a female character... You'll probably like this one...

No mistaking it this time. You clearly say AFTER the document is signed.

I never said that it was at the end of that chapter... Read upthread...

Thanks, but I had already done that prior to posting. I have included numerous quotes of you suggesting a later conversation between the "Mormont woman" and Cat to prove the point that I am about to make. It is VERY IMPORTANT that the chapter ends right now before this conversation takes place. This is because Maege LEAVES at this point, and there is NO FURTHER OPPORTUNITY for conversation between her and Cat. I even checked the next TWO chapters to ensure that the conversation did not occur with Maege's daughter Dacy. (You're Welcome.) All that happens is that they both get dead. In other words, your conversation does not seem to exist in the manner in which you remember or have portrayed. I took MY time to research YOUR claim. I don't expect much, but it would be decent of you to read the entire written post and remain aware of the comments that you, yourself made before being rudely dismissive. (And inaccurate as well.)