Heresy 177

[Voice]

 
And this again is one reason why I cleave to Conrad. Coldhands' importance [or otherwise] as a character rests on who he is now, not who he might once have been.

Geeze man. Conrad again!? Might be time to just add him to your sig and be done with it! Kidding, my friend.

But yeah, I don't actually find Coldhands to be incredibly important. He's intriguing, and implicates much regarding cold preservation, the history of the Wall and NW, etc, but beyond that, it's hard to see him as much more than a taxi driver.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, until I figured the Heart of Darkness connection I was wont to liken him to Charon

[Voice]

Yup. Just wait till he lifts that hood and reveals his third eye. Lol

[wolfmaid7]

 
Entirely possible, but again, not exactly canonical.
  
Sure. Understood. I was proposing a way that I might come to believe your interpretation. If, for example, Hodor began to display some odd physical side-effects, like glowing eyes, it might cause me to wonder if there is indeed some common cause between the Others/wights, and the skinchanging ability. Otherwise, they appear quite different.
 
In other words... I was trying to create a scenario in which Haggon's admonition was more than just an ethical one. If Haggon's admonition not to skinchange fellow men had some real side-effects, like causing Hodor's eyes to glow, I would be more inclined to view the Green Powers and Blue Powers as more akin to one another. It may yet come to pass. Hodor could begin displaying some very Otherish symptoms at the beginning of WoW (forcing him to leave the cave...perhaps), but until then, I remain quite skeptical of a commonality between the two.
 
  
Yup. Agreed. He was pulled into One Eye's living consciousness, because that is the only medium in which he could continue to exist, once his body died.
 
Bran experiences much the same sensation, and BR hints as much, that eventually his consciousness might be able to extend beyond the trees themselves. Still, that is utilizing living consciousness.
 
  
LOL, nope. Not buying it. We've nothing to suggest bones house the soul, and if they did, why did V6 require One Eye? Surely, his bones would be enough, and he could persevere in his own corpse, like Coldhands. Instead, like the singer girl Bran found inside the raven, V6 required a living consciousness (One Eye's) for his own to inhabit.
 
I don't think V6 was in the flock of birds. They merely cawed as they felt him pass... acknowledging his presence. That presence might have been within them, or simply in the wind, and they notice it. We don't know.
 
And yes, a flock is a unit made up of individuals, but as always, you fail to understand that even they are Living Individuals, and Varamyr never inhabits any dead meat on his journey to One Eye. Not once.
 
We do agree that wights move like a hive or flock, and are guided. But from my point of view, you seem to be missing why this is possible. Rather than being a pack of individuals, wights are a freezer full of dead meat. Thus, they are animated together. And this is possible precisely because they no longer possess their individual consciousnesses.
 
BR, V6, Bran, (edit: and Orell...), the singer girl in the raven, they all inhabit the living consciousness of living individuals, rather than dead meat. You think that is a negligible wrinkle. I do not.

We'll see Voice ,we are going round and round with what we think and how we are interpreting.How about we wait, seeing as we are at a stand still.

But In the end we'll see if the uber Skinchangers are behind this or your posse riding ice spiders.

I do agree with you on CHs though I think in time we'll see that he ain't BR's bitch or a tour guide to lost boys and gals.

[Voice]

We'll see Voice ,we are going round and round with what we think and how we are interpreting.How about we wait, seeing as we are at a stand still.

But In the end we'll see if the uber Skinchangers are behind this or your posse riding ice spiders.

I do agree with you on CHs though I think in time we'll see that he ain't BR's bitch or a tour guide to lost boys and gals.

 

:cheers:

 

Sounds like a plan. :)

[Black Crow]

Anyhoo, I'll quite rambling here, because I can go on forever. But I think the order of Green Men solves the language dilemma of the Pact. Considering how isolated they, and cotf settlements tend to be, it makes sense to me that the LH/BtB had to seek them out in order to learn something of their ways.

 

Geographically isolated perhaps but I wouldn't underestimate the part played by the crows in communicating whether as messengers and or translators.

 

I'd alson suggest that the difficulty in finding the children wasn't their isolation but rather the simple fact they didn't want to be found.

[wolfmaid7]

 
Geographically isolated perhaps but I wouldn't underestimate the part played by the crows in communicating whether as messengers and or translators.
 
I'd alson suggest that the difficulty in finding the children wasn't their isolation but rather the simple fact they didn't want to be found.

Agree with this.We shouldn't forget they have had eyes on everything for a long time.Peering through anything. ..Tree and feather. So I think its also picking a moment when it seems men are most vulnerable and likely to accept and or beg for help.In truth as you said they weren't isolated, they just chose not make contact.

I would say one of the oldest trick in the book.create a situation and then when your target's knees bend on account of the situation you created, swoop in and save the day.

Not before asking a little something something for your help.

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
Geographically isolated perhaps but I wouldn't underestimate the part played by the crows in communicating whether as messengers and or translators.
 
I'd alson suggest that the difficulty in finding the children wasn't their isolation but rather the simple fact they didn't want to be found.

If wildlings are to believed, they see the Children time to time, they just don't get as close as, say, the Giants. They don't want to be found is an explanation, but they do so by isolating.

[Lord Ravenstark]

By the way, how many Children there are? We have seen something like sixty… but then, every raven has a CotF, at least the ones inside the cave... And that is if you don't take BR as saying there is one inside every bird in the world. There is a whole murder inside the cave, a population of 60, long lived people is not enough to populate every single raven mind inside the cave, given how many years one raven lives.

Either it is, in fact, possible to leap from one body to another after death or, you know, there is a much, much bigger population of CotF inside the caves. Like hundreds of thousands, if not millions. If they have a big enough population inside the caves system, that would explain why they don't want anyone exploring.

Just a thought, though.

[Lady Dyanna]

Thanks for posting that.

 :cheers: My pleasure. 

:whip:
 
It wasn't even directed at me and I felt the crack of that whip. Made me jump! LOL

Well someone has to keep you guys in line. ;)

I just posted this in Sly Wren's Death to Dawn thread, and it's relevant here. It addresses my views on the differences between the various branches of consciousness and identity:
 

Lots of interesting stuff here. I think it all comes down to consciousness, and different, unique ways (powers) of manipulating, exploiting, eradicating, and abandoning consciousness.

 

There is the 'Self' contained within one's sense of consciousness. Then there is the 'Biological Self'. Identical twins, for example, have the same genetic/biological self, yet distinct identities due to their individual consciousnesses.

 

I think Skinchanging is a melding of Two distinct and conscious Selves.

 

I see Other necromancy and just that: necromancy (if you are talking about wights).

 

If we are considering the Others/ww's, then I think they are an example of multiple, individual, Human Consciousnesses (and First Men consciousnesses, specifically), inhabiting inhuman magical (but nearly-biological) Selves made of ice. They have bones and blood. They have eyes, hands, legs, feet, and something akin to vocal cords. Their speech apparatus conveys a voice with the timbre of cracking ice on a frozen lake. This again points to a real and tangible body. Rather than being biologically carbon-based, like Men, they are somehow magically ice-based, but they are real bodies nonetheless. I make this distinction because there are several other identities you bring up that do not have bodies, or, do not have bodies of their own. The Others have bodies of their own. They even have clothes, or at least, armor. They seem Human in every way, except their biology - or lack thereof.

 

If we are talking about wights, they are strangely dissimilar from their blue-eyed brethren. First and foremost, they retain human biology. Their blood has been freeze-dried, but it is nonetheless blood, and not ice. They display all the characteristics of human bodies that have recently died, and been frozen. (Remember the shock of cold V6 feels when "true death" comes.) So, in short, wights are frozen, dead, meat. While they are clearly animate, they do not demonstrate any sense of "Self" nor individual consciousness. It may well be that there is some echoes of memory, frozen upon their synaptic alignments, but it remains to be seen if they are truly cognizant creatures. Clearly, something cognizant is controlling and guiding them, but they, in and of themselves, seem more like puppets. It is my belief that Night's King and his Queen are the ones pulling the strings. I think the 13th LC sought to kill the 997th.

 

R'hllorist resurrections remain to be proven, in my opinion, that they were indeed caused by R'hllor. Bodies rising from the dead is hardly rare anymore in the series. And with the "old powers awakening" it is hard to say if recovering alcoholic Thoros actually resurrected Beric, or if it was caused by his faith, or it was cause by his god, or if it was a fluke or spontaneous event. Whatever the mystery is behind Beric, it explains Cat. In any case, there was no death to pay for Beric's life, or else everyone who died could buy their life back with their own death, and that would make no sense. Beric seems special to me, and breaks MMD's rule. Considering MMD studied shadowbinding, like Mel, and Thoros did not, I would say that Beric's life has nothing to do with shadowbinding, nor the 'only death may pay for life' stipulation.

 

Back to what Beric and Cat are, exactly, I think they each demonstrate a functioning biological body, and because of that, memories of the self (like the frozen memories of wights), but no longer possess their own consciousness-derived Selves. I think spirit and consciousness can be seen as one and the same: a living, natural manifestation of identity. Each death bring a little brain decay, for Beric and Cat. They are functioning biological meat, bereft of the living consciousness/Self.

 

Rhaego's soul, or, in my interp, his Conscious Self, left his body when he was stillborn. He was a baby. Sure he had dragon blood, but he was just a kid. The dragons have zero humanity, and Rhaegal demonstrates nothing of Rhaego, in my opinion. 

 

Shadow binding is an interesting one. Well, they all are, of course. But shadowbinding is a lot like horcruxing, in my opinion. A person fragments their own Consciousness, and encapsulates a fragment of the Self by having sex with a shadowbinder. The act of sex, itself, (unlike horcruxes) seems to produce the encapsulation. The shadowbinder provides the shadow, in my opinion, from her very womb (I'm thinking this precludes men from becoming shadowbinders). In her womb, the shadowbinder binds the Consciousness Fragment, delivered via semen, apparently, to a Shadow. Rather than inhuman sidhe made of ice (I'm *winking* at you, JNR lol), we have ourselves a human consciousness fragment made of shadow. Stannis' intent to murder Renly is the fragment he delivered, and Mel delivered the shadow of it.

 

Stannis seems to understand all of this. He remembers doing the deed, almost. It was a part of himself that did it, at least, and he knows that. He even dreams of it.
Coldhands, in my opinion, is the opposite of Beric and LS. His body is a corpse, yet, his Consciouss Self remains in it. Cold seems to have preserved him, and I think if he crossed south of the Wall, he would die. He's been killed already, "long ago" by Leaf's account, yet lives. He, in my opinion, is the only example of a truly living corpse in the novels (but there are a few individuals who come pretty close). Or, at least, he is the only corpse that has retained it's natural, Consciousness-derived Self. I think his Elk is just a loyal beast of burden.

 

I'm open to the idea the cotf resurrected Coldhands somehow, but I think it unlikely. We've yet to see anyone with greenpowers resurrect anybody. I think BR himself is even less likely, as he's old, but not old enough by Leaf's frame of reference to qualify her statement that, "they killed him long ago."

 

Your dwindling comparison of Stannis to Beric is very apt, but I would argue they are dwindling due to different causes. Stannis is fragmenting his Conscious Self, Beric's Conscious Self is long gone, imo. Stannis is dwindling due to very-human guilt, and very sorcerous manipulation. Beric was dwindling due to no longer having his Conscious Self in his body (unlike Coldhands), and instead, only retaining memories of it.
Skinchanging 'remnants' (cool term by the way) is also very apt. I call them artifacts. But, both terms feel a little off the mark to me. When Bran slips into Summer's skin, he is a part of Summer's living, natural Conscious Self. The two of them have bonded with each other. It is a mutual relationship. And, I would argue that Bran demonstrates evidence of Summer being a part of his Consciousness, inside of his Bran-skin, from the time Gared is executed in the first chapter. Bran begins to feel colder, even though the wind has stopped, and the sun is higher in the sky. It is my interpretation that is due to Summer's Consciousness already merging with his own. The "wordless cry of dismay" drives the point home, once he has the pup in hand. If we imagine this as a two-way street, it seems perfectly reasonable that Summer will retain some sense of Bran's Conscious Self, even if Bran died today.

 

In GRRM's universe, he gives further personification to this "sense" and indeed makes it a very literal process in Varamyr's prologue. Varamyr dies, floats around, and finds refuge in One-Eye's body. One Eye, however, unlike V6, is still inhabiting the body he was born with. I think that matters. And I think this is the reason that V6's consciousness, though ever-present, fades in perspective as One Eye's dominance over his own Conscious Self grows. V6 can live as a part of One Eye's mind, but he, himself, is no longer alive. His body died, like Coldhands' body. But, unlike Coldhands, he is not the dominant member of the body he is now inhabiting. One Eye is a wolf, and was loyal to V6, but is still and individual. Coldhands does not have that problem, and, what's more, I believe he is inhabiting the body he was born with. It might be dead, but it's still his own.

 

When Bran finds he is "not alone" inside of the Raven's Consciousness, he knows he is there with a girl, a cotf girl, as it happens. I think he would find V6 inside of One Eye in the same fashion. And, if Bran died, I think a fellow skinchanger would find the "sweet summer child" there inside of Summer.
Qyburn's monster is a whole other beast, but, if that is truly the Mountain's body, and the Mountain's head was truly sent to Dorne, then it appears Coldhands is not the only Conscious Self inhabiting a corpse. I think it's more likely that Qyburn has suspended the Mountain's death, and that the head shipped to Dorne was that of an unfortunate dwarf (gained from Cersei's hunt for the valonqar).
 

Rather than lump these individuals together, and explain them all under the umbrella of greenseeing, or the skinchanging ability, I'd rather marvel at and study their uniqueness. Each seems to be a lesson on identity.

 

Theon almost warrants a spot on this list, poor guy. LOL

 

You raise some interesting ideas. Definitely worth some thought. :cheers:

Ah, well, in my books there are Others. And, in my books, the greenseers see through the eyes of the living, and nothing more.

And yet, might not your "blueseers" have started out the same as the greenseers until they began to corrupt the magic that they were using for their own purposes? Maybe Starks using greenseer tools in order to strengthen their own cause and punish their enemies?

Great point.

:cheers:

[wolfmaid7]

 
And yet, might not your "blueseers" have started out the same as the greenseers until they began to corrupt the magic that they were using for their own purposes? Maybe Starks using greenseer tools in order to strengthen their own cause and punish their enemies?
:cheers:

Exactly,though the blue eyes have always been described as "cold blue" and i think that is saying something about the nature of what is looking through them at times.

[Lady Dyanna]

So, I had a crazy thought while reading the part of the NW oath that Sam used to get through the Nightfort gate. Could each section of the oath refer to a person who might be integral to the upcoming battle?

"I am the fire that burns against the cold,(???) the light that brings the dawn,(Jon?) the horn that wakes the sleepers.(Sam?) I am the shield that guards the realms of men."(???)

[Voice]

Well someone has to keep you guys in line. ;)

You raise some interesting ideas. Definitely worth some thought. :cheers:

 

:cheers:

 

And yet, might not your "blueseers" have started out the same as the greenseers until they began to corrupt the magic that they were using for their own purposes? Maybe Starks using greenseer tools in order to strengthen their own cause and punish their enemies?

 

Normally, I would say that is entirely possible, but that is the point in my comment above... it seems rather impossible.

 

Future books may well bridge the gap, but thus far, it seems as though the Blue Powers have no control over the living. Instead, they kill the living, then animate the corpses like puppets. And, rather than animate dead flesh, the Green Powers seem confined to consciousness itself.

 

GRRM may certainly change the rules in future volumes. And I'm sure it would be amazingly cool and explanatory. But, for the moment, Green Powers seem inherently tied to life. We see very little overlap between the elemental powers, and I see this particular notion as incompatible as, say, Drogon in the House of the Undying.

 

It's just my personal slant on things of course, but in my understanding of Martin's world, he seems to have drawn a line between the Green and the Blue. Green see through the eyes of the living. And Blue remains beyond the end of the known world.

 

A very, very big line. ;)

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

It is explained in the books that the swords on the laps are to keep the spirits from leaving the crypts. Many use the example of Robb receiving Tyrion with his sword on his lap to support the claim that this is a denial of guest right, but Robb didn't deny Tyrion guest right. He didn't like receiving him, but he did listen to him and Tyrion left safely unharmed, which is basically what guest right it.

 

I agree that Jojen reminded Bran that he's a boy and not just a wolf, but Bran didn't refuse the connection to Summer and the passage above does not prove that he was trying to deny the warg connection.

I mean, that's the modern explanation for why they are there; that is, the belief of Winterfell's current inhabitants. It need not be the only reason, or even the primary one.

 

Bran out and out says the words, "I am not a wolf" which is equivalent to Jon and Robb's denials. "I'm a man, no matter what they call me." and "I'm a man, not a wolf." His initial reaction is to resist training and to resist the warg connection, despite his later embracing of it.

[Phillip Frye]

It is explained in the books that the swords on the laps are to keep the spirits from leaving the crypts. Many use the example of Robb receiving Tyrion with his sword on his lap to support the claim that this is a denial of guest right, but Robb didn't deny Tyrion guest right. He didn't like receiving him, but he did listen to him and Tyrion left safely unharmed, which is basically what guest right it.

 

Actually, the scene strongly implies that Robb intends to deny guest right to the evil Lannister while he stands in the Great Hall of Winterfell.  In typical Martin fashion, the meaning of the sword on the lap is so obvious to everyone in the room that Martin never explains it to us, the readers.  After some conversation and the revealing of the blueprints to let Bran ride a horse, Robb only then gratefully and explicitly offers Tyrion guest right (which is what strongly implies that it had earlier been denied by a display of bare steel), which Tyrion then declines, choosing instead to sleep in the winter town (to remove himself away from lunatic Robb).  Robb essentially comes across as an enormous tool, which is evidence in my opinion that he might be Lysa's son, instead of Catelyn's.

[Voice]

It is explained in the books that the swords on the laps are to keep the spirits from leaving the crypts. Many use the example of Robb receiving Tyrion with his sword on his lap to support the claim that this is a denial of guest right, but Robb didn't deny Tyrion guest right. He didn't like receiving him, but he did listen to him and Tyrion left safely unharmed, which is basically what guest right it.

 

Didn't really notice this part of your comment until it was quoted above (twice!) haha, apologies!

 

This is a very astute observation. I've often equated this with the denial of guest right, myself. But now I see that is a misconception and over-generalization.

 

Robb does in fact offer Tyrion guest right in spite of the drawn sword. The sword speaks, and sings, and here, it has simply voiced its presence. A threat, but not a veiled one.

 

The true breaker of guest right had no drawn sword on his lap. Rather, he smiled, laughed, drank, ate, and made jokes throughout the entire wedding.

 

Truly great observation Feather. I'm not sure if you are the first to bring it up, or it only just sank in, but in any case, thanks. :)

[Phillip Frye]

Denying someone guest right doesn't mean that you will refuse to parlay with the arriving party or that you intend to immediately chop them up with the sword across the lap.  Instead, it means that the arriving party is entitled to no succor at the residence in question.  No shelter will be provided, no spot at the table will be laid.  No security will be provided upon departure.

 

It doesn't mean, "I'm gonna stick you with the pointy end, right now."

[Phillip Frye]

So, while I was gone for a few days, I gather that Addicted to Whomping Weirwoods once again channeled his inner Dale Carnegie with regard to the other forum posters.  To sum up, I made a long post at his request, setting forth every logical inference from the text that I could summon that indicated that Craster was the bastard of a member of House Stark.  Addicted to Sinkholes spat on it and claimed that it lacked any foreshadowing by Martin.

 

He then subsequently, in the same thread, no less, claimed that Catelyn Stark was Robb's declared heir, based upon nothing at all as demonstrated painstakingly by Lady Dyanna.  Par for the course for Addicted to New Posters as far as I am concerned.

[Phillip Frye]

7. You have failed miserably to present any logic or clues as to why he named Cat except your "feeling"

 

8.I don't throw my hat behind emotion,i throw my hat behind something tangible of which you have none in this case.I'm sorry dude that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

So, if I had just said, "I feels it", instead of laying out a long logical argument to support my theory about Craster being a Stark bastard, Addicted to Hescox would have accepted it?

 

Thanks.  Knowing that will save a great deal of typing in the future.

[wolfmaid7]

 

So, if I had just said, "I feels it", instead of laying out a long logical argument to support my theory about Craster being a Stark bastard, Addicted to Hescox would have accepted it?

 

Thanks.  Knowing that will save a great deal of typing in the future.

I don't know, you have to ask him.I personally wouldn't care how long it was ,just so long as it was logical and based on some evidence beside "feelings" which anyone can have and it could be right.But don't assert feelings as fact and shut people down with personal  jabs  when they call you on it.