You are Rhegar Targaryan (ursurp) your farhers crown quickly and effectivly

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Vary's could always go into hiding, like he did after he helped Tyrion escape. Cersei is essentially ruling through her puppet son, and even she couldn't catch him. She had all the power of a Westerosi King, and was unable to kill one glorified easdropper.

And as he would probably know all the tricks of the trade, I don't see Varys falling for that so easily.
"My lord, Prince Rhaegar sees you as a threat. He means to have you assassinated."
"Thanks for the warning, little bird. Now to return to my shadows."

I absloutly agree that Rhaegar or Aerys would suffer no legal ramifications for killing Varys. But the actual technical part of it would require a bit of thought.

I definitely agree with the last part. I was just giving a simplistic example.

My point is that Varys's death would only cause Aerys to be more discontent with Rhaegar, something he -allegedly- already was. But, in this way, Rhaegar gets his master spy out of the way.

[Jasta11]

 

 

And everything was working fine until that meddling Brandon Stark fucked up everything :dunno:

 

Yeah, I mean obviously it's everyone's fault but Rheagar's. Because he was perfect like that.

 

Anyway, it seems that an assassination or coup would be very hard just because of Varys. He doesn't have Littlefinger to oppose him, and thus presumably has the run of the Red Keep when it comes to spies. The loyalty of 3 of the Kingsguard is an asset to be sure, but the guards of the Red Keep probably serve their king no questions asked, and we don't know if the leader of the Goldcloaks was as corrupt as Slynt.

 

Failing that, raising the realm in rebellion is possible, but quite risky. Ray-Man has Dorne by his side, but will have to make concessions to everyone else if he wants to drag them into war, assuming of course Varys doesn't discover such blatant treason like he did with the Harrenhall tourney. Proving Aerys's madness would be hard without a trigger of some sort, and the Lords of Westeros are unlikely to budge unless said madness becomes a danger to them. Not to mention of messy such a war might end up being, of course.

 

Option A is still probably the best course of action. Unless Rheagar can get a vast majority of the realm's nobles on his side in secret, which is probably beyond the reach of anyone, eliminating Varys and detaining Aerys has less chances of turning into a disaster. Maybe. A lot of it hinges on getting the Goldcloaks on Ray-Man's side, one assumes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, I mean obviously it's everyone's fault but Rheagar's. Because he was perfect like that.

If that's how you interpret, it, that's your thing. Not what I said.

Did I say his plan was perfect? No. But it was working FINE. The Prince left KL and no one knew what the hell he was doing, probably not even Varys as he seems to have zero idea of RLJ. As far as we know, he could have had great chances of actually achieving his coup and remove Aerys peacefully, without having a civil war to face and with a massive support of the Great Lords.

I know it's easier to believe that people sees Rhaegar as the perfect guy who doesn't do wrong, but honestly, we're not just making it up: the text suggests he knew very well what he was doing. The doubt comes after the whole Lyanna affair and we have no idea what was happening there. Brandon was the wild card.

[Kaibaman]

Well I don't think Rhaegar overthrowing his father has to be done with bloodshed. There certainly shouldn't have to be a bloody coup. I personally would write letters to the lords of Westeros and recommend a Great Council be held for Aerys to either abdicate or for Rhaegar to assume the regency while Aerys lives out the rest of his reign in captivity. It seems to me like the verdict of the Great Councils are final when it comes to determining the ruler of Westeros. If Rhaegar get the votes then I'm sure the Kingsguard, the Small Council or anybody else loyal to Aerys' will accept it. Besides everybody already agrees Aerys is too mad to run the kingdom so its unlikely anyway will try to restore him.

[Jasta11]

If that's how you interpret, it, that's your thing. Not what I said.

Did I say his plan was perfect? No. But it was working FINE. The Prince left KL and no one knew what the hell he was doing, probably not even Varys as he seems to have zero idea of RLJ. As far as we know, he could have had great chances of actually achieving his coup and remove Aerys peacefully, without having a civil war to face and with a massive support of the Great Lords.

I know it's easier to believe that people sees Rhaegar as the perfect guy who doesn't do wrong, but honestly, we're not just making it up: the text suggests he knew very well what he was doing. The doubt comes after the whole Lyanna affair and we have no idea what was happening there. Brandon was the wild card.

 

My main beef is that all that is speculation (that he had a solid plan and that it was working fine) that we need to take as fact because it makes Rheagar appear better. Sure, there are implications of a plan. Just like there are implications of there being no plan or a poor plan (such as, you know, us not knowing anything about what Rhaegar does between his elopement and when he comes back months later). it works both ways. And I still fail to see how Lyanna would tie into the master plan at all.

 

And massive support of which Great Lords? The one from whom he stole a bethrored? or the other one whose daughter he kidnapped/eloped with? Or the third one whose daughter he didn't marry (not that it was his fault but still). It all feels really reaching.

 

Anyhow, that wasn't the point. All of this is pure speculation so long as we don't have the next books. But if the plan was gathering support from the great lords, Ray-Man chose a singularily terrible way to go on about it. Which means maybe his plan was to make a more localized coup in the Red Keep, but was twarted from planning even that when Aerys showed up at Harrenhall. 

[TimJames]

I definitely agree with the last part. I was just giving a simplistic example.My point is that Varys's death would only cause Aerys to be more discontent with Rhaegar, something he -allegedly- already was. But, in this way, Rhaegar gets his master spy out of the way.

You're right on this point; getting Varys out of the way would have benefitted Rhaeger quite a bit (assuming he could have pulled it off).

[TimJames]

Double post

[The Kinkslayer]

According to ancient Valyrian scrolls Rhaegar just had to impregnate the daughter/sister/betrothed of every overlord of the 7 kingdoms.

 

On a second thought, what about just letting Aerys grow old and die. There was not immediate need to get rid of the king, the realm was not facing an outside treat nor internal turmoil, Aerys was chiefly cruel with his wife but they could be kept apart.

[purple-eyes]

According to ancient Valyrian scrolls Rhaegar just had to impregnate the daughter/sister/betrothed of every overlord of the 7 kingdoms.
 
On a second thought, what about just letting Aerys grow old and die. There was not immediate need to get rid of the king, the realm was not facing an outside treat nor internal turmoil, Aerys was chiefly cruel with his wife but they could be kept apart.

Actually it is a good idea.
Suppose rhaegar married elia, lyanna, cersei, cat and one tyrell daughter all together then he had the best alliance in 7k.
Although he will have a worse heir selection.....

[VenezuelanLord]

Actually it is a good idea.
Suppose rhaegar married elia, lyanna, cersei, cat and one tyrell daughter all together then he had the best alliance in 7k.
Although he will have a worse heir selection.....

The faith would tear him apart, there's a reason why the Targs left polygamy behind, and supposing that the Faith actually turned a blind eye , Tullys and starks would not allow their daughters to be in a marriage with a polygamous King..

[purple-eyes]

The faith would tear him apart, there's a reason why the Targs left polygamy behind, and supposing that the Faith actually turned a blind eye , Tullys and starks would not allow their daughters to be in a marriage with a polygamous King..

Why not? Must be happy to have a daughter as queen of 7k.
Maegor can marry six wives. So does rhaegar.

[kimim]

 

My main beef is that all that is speculation (that he had a solid plan and that it was working fine) that we need to take as fact because it makes Rheagar appear better. Sure, there are implications of a plan. Just like there are implications of there being no plan or a poor plan (such as, you know, us not knowing anything about what Rhaegar does between his elopement and when he comes back months later). it works both ways. And I still fail to see how Lyanna would tie into the master plan at all.

 

...

ITA. There was a plan, which he gave up on: "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but...well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken."

 

That means, literally, that he had meant to call a council, but chose to do something that forced him to delay the council. Disappearing with Lyanna could be what he's talking about, as it would alienate four of the seven families in the realm, not the best start for a council. With a sane king, the consequences would have been minimal, but, as Rhaegar knew, Aerys was insane. That was why he was calling a council in the first place.

 

So Brandon was no instigator, but a victim. In a way, Aerys was a victim, too. Mental illness IS an illness. Aerys didn't want to go mad. He had Varys giving him terrible advice, had the lords of the realm forming alliances against him. The son who should have removed his burden and sent him to a happy mansion as far from KL as possible, ran off with a woman instead, forcing him to deal with all manner of shit he couldn't. He's not a nice man, but I'm not sure if he can be blamed.

 

Anyhow, yeah, Rhaegar had a plan, then pissed on it for reasons we'll find out in Winds. I hope.

[VenezuelanLord]

Why not? Must be happy to have a daughter as queen of 7k.
Maegor can marry six wives. So does rhaegar.

And maegor had the faith as a constant pain in his ass..

[Pigeon Pie]

 

I'm not saying Rhaegar should have, but it's not that hard.

 

Technically, the King and Princes can get away with killing people. Look at Aerion. he hurt Tanselle and the only reason that caused a problem was due to Dunk being there and punching him. Had he not been there, Maekar would have only given him a slap on the wrist. And the Rebellion started because the King murdered and ask for the murder of people with armies behind them.

 

But men like LF or Varys have no one. If the King had decided to kill Varys right there on the throne room no Rebellion had happened. Idem for LF. Arryn wasn't going to call the banners for Littlefinger. Not to say Varys.

 

So, Varys could have gotten the best spy network and still be helpless if Rhaegar had ordered him to be brought to Dragonstone in the middle of the night. "Uh, he was sailing here and the ship sunk. Pity".

 

Not to mention that Varys would know Rhaegar's plan via his little birds ONLY IF Rhaegar was stupid enough to announce it loudly. He'd have enough sense to keep it to himself, ask the man for private audience once (and no matter how much he enjoys Aerys' trust he's in no position to refuse the crown prince's invitation) and... hands around that neck or sword in that belly. I imagine the fat little eunuch is no match physically to the tall, formidable, young crown prince. 

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Appoint Axell Florent as my "Princes' Hand"...which ultimately leads to Axell taking the throne for himself, but at least it got that fucking nutjob out of there in the process.

[Jasta11]

 

Not to mention that Varys would know Rhaegar's plan via his little birds ONLY IF Rhaegar was stupid enough to announce it loudly. He'd have enough sense to keep it to himself, ask the man for private audience once (and no matter how much he enjoys Aerys' trust he's in no position to refuse the crown prince's invitation) and... hands around that neck or sword in that belly. I imagine the fat little eunuch is no match physically to the tall, formidable, young crown prince. 

 

Yet Varys managed to find out that Rhaegar's tourney was a front for a gathering (from what we can glean). So it seems the prince wasn't subtle enough to avoid notice.

[Ramsay Gimp]

 

I'm not saying Rhaegar should have, but it's not that hard.

 

Technically, the King and Princes can get away with killing people. Look at Aerion. he hurt Tanselle and the only reason that caused a problem was due to Dunk being there and punching him. Had he not been there, Maekar would have only given him a slap on the wrist. And the Rebellion started because the King murdered and ask for the murder of people with armies behind them.

 

But men like LF or Varys have no one. If the King had decided to kill Varys right there on the throne room no Rebellion had happened. Idem for LF. Arryn wasn't going to call the banners for Littlefinger. Not to say Varys.

 

So, Varys could have gotten the best spy network and still be helpless if Rhaegar had ordered him to be brought to Dragonstone in the middle of the night. "Uh, he was sailing here and the ship sunk. Pity".

 

But if Rhaegar just openly kills or arrests Varys, with no deniability, Aerys may well ordered his son thrown in a dungeon. I don't think he would buy whatever justifications Rhaegar came up with

[redeagl]

I wood rite leturs to al the loreds of Westerrors preteendin to bee mai fahthur. They wuld Kwikly reelize hough inkompetant he mussed be and deklar him insayn so I cood be keyng.

Hapyli evur afftur.

 

I wood rite leturs to al the loreds of Westerrors preteendin to bee mai fahthur. They wuld Kwikly reelize hough inkompetant he mussed be and deklar him insayn so I cood be keyng.

Hapyli evur afftur.

 

Did you mean to write it that way ?? because it is readable but clearly you meant it.

[lidsa]

SInce I've recently seen The Madness of King George, I don't think declaring Aerys insane and even locking him away would solve anything permanently.  

All it needs is one Lord who doesn't like a decision of mine and he could go and free Aerys and say I lied or something like that (not to mention Aerys was never insane in the effect that he didn't know what he was doing).  

 

I would go the psychopath's way: never mention to anybody that I want my father gone (since someone always talks) and outwardly display great loyalty to him. Then one night I'd push him down the stairs or put poisonous scorpions in his bed or something else that can't get back to me.  

 

When they come to me the next morning telling me my father is dead, I'd act sad and then proceed to take over, starting with getting rid of Varys. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But if Rhaegar just openly kills or arrests Varys, with no deniability, Aerys may well ordered his son thrown in a dungeon. I don't think he would buy whatever justifications Rhaegar came up with

Not openly. As I said, he can always arrange an accident.