Othor Blue Eyes

[pigpiginsunspear]

I'll keep this short, we know that Othor died outside of the Wall.  His corpse was brought back through the Wall.

 

He was reanimated as a wight, sought out the LC, and was slain by Jon Snow.

 

Jon Snow is trying to run an experiment to better understand wights. Nothing of note yet.

 

Conclusions we can draw:

 

1.  Wights can survive on the southern side of the Wall.

 

2. Othor either waited to reanimate as a Wight, the reanimation takes time (and was lucky that it happened south of the wall), or was controlled by the Other who waited to reanimate him until after south of the Wall.

 

3. Wights retain some memory, as Othor knew who the LC was/had a memory of how to get around.

 

4. Wights have some drive beyond seeking warm flesh or blood.  Otherwise, why specifically seek out the LC?

 

5. Wights have no drive, but are controlled by the Others, who can access their memory.

 

Thoughts?

[aryagonnakill#2]

My belief is that the wights played dead, and that the blue eyes means they had already turned.  They could not cross on their own power but could be brought across by sworn brothers just like Sam could bring non NW threw the weirwood door.  What is troubling is their actions once across the wall.  They must have been controlled because otherwise they would simply go for the nearest warm body, not all the way up to the LC's tower.

[Blazfemur]

one thing's for sure: it certainly blows a hole intot he whole, "wall is magical, and repels the dead" concept

[pigpiginsunspear]

My belief is that the wights played dead, and that the blue eyes means they had already turned.  They could not cross on their own power but could be brought across by sworn brothers just like Sam could bring non NW threw the weirwood door.  What is troubling is their actions once across the wall.  They must have been controlled because otherwise they would simply go for the nearest warm body, not all the way up to the LC's tower.

 

On top of that, if true, the Others must know who the LC is and presumably know everyone Othor knew.  If Benjen became a wight, they would also have access to his memory, meaning they know nearly everything about Winterfell, etc.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

My belief is that the wights played dead, and that the blue eyes means they had already turned.  They could not cross on their own power but could be brought across by sworn brothers just like Sam could bring non NW threw the weirwood door.  What is troubling is their actions once across the wall.  They must have been controlled because otherwise they would simply go for the nearest warm body, not all the way up to the LC's tower.

:agree:

 

Othor (and Jafer Flowers) were dead for weeks (as determined by Sam), but didn't rot at all. They were wights for the entire time.

[pigpiginsunspear]

one thing's for sure: it certainly blows a hole intot he whole, "wall is magical, and repels the dead" concept

 

There is something to that though...why else could Coldhands not pass through?

[Blazfemur]

 

There is something to that though...why else could Coldhands not pass through?

 

logistics. perhaps Others, or his type, are effected, wights, apparently are not.

 

however, it's not the say the wall wasnt always warded, the watch hasnt had dealings with the children for generations. if there was a magical ward, i could assume they were the ones keeping it up.

 

but i would say, if there ever were wards, theyre certainly weakened, or nonexistent.

 

the fight to this idea is that melisandre said she felt more powerful, as if the wall itself was magnifying her powers (or, as a shadowbinder, perhaps her energies devour the magic imposed on the wall, consuming what little is left)

 

who knows though, right now, the logistics of it.

 

bottom line, no children in forever. the children i attribute to keeping it warded which again, is just theory.

 

what we saw, was a wight, existing, on a "warded" wall

[Triceratops]

On top of that, if true, the Others must know who the LC is and presumably know everyone Othor knew.  If Benjen became a wight, they would also have access to his memory, meaning they know nearly everything about Winterfell, etc.

I bet Benjen knew who Jon's real parents were. RLJ reveal/denial from Night's King?

[Darkstream]

logistics. perhaps Others, or his type, are effected, wights, apparently are not.
 
however, it's not the say the wall wasnt always warded, the watch hasnt had dealings with the children for generations. if there was a magical ward, i could assume they were the ones keeping it up.
 
but i would say, if there ever were wards, theyre certainly weakened, or nonexistent.
 
the fight to this idea is that melisandre said she felt more powerful, as if the wall itself was magnifying her powers (or, as a shadowbinder, perhaps her energies devour the magic imposed on the wall, consuming what little is left)
 
who knows though, right now, the logistics of it.
 
bottom line, no children in forever. the children i attribute to keeping it warded which again, is just theory.
 
what we saw, was a wight, existing, on a "warded" wall

I'm confused as to the logistic constraints your referring to that stop Coldhands from passing through the gate.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

My thoughts on this:

Waymar is killed by the Others at twilight.
Othor attacks at night fall.
Battle/slaughter at the fist happens in the middle of the night.
The others pick off the wildlings at night.

I believe that the Others already had Othor and company. Othor was brought back to Castle Black night came he retained memory(think The Strain; show or books same process.) or was completely controled by the Others. I would like it to be completely controled Something along the lines of Skyrim's "reanimate dead". However They only come out at night and that's why it's taking so long to take out the wall waiting for the long night.

[pigpiginsunspear]

I bet Benjen knew who Jon's real parents were. RLJ reveal/denial from Night's King?

 

Haha I didn't want to commit and say that...but if Benjen knew, then presumably the Others know.  Which probably means he's a target.

[pigpiginsunspear]

My thoughts on this:

Waymar is killed by the Others at twilight.
Othor attacks at night fall.
Battle/slaughter at the fist happens in the middle of the night.
The others pick off the wildlings at night.

I believe that the Others already had Othor and company. Othor was brought back to Castle Black night came he retained memory(think The Strain; show or books same process.) or was completely controled by the Others. I would like it to be completely controled Something along the lines of Skyrim's "reanimate dead". However They only come out at night and that's why it's taking so long to take out the wall waiting for the long night.

 

I think you are on to something there...

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Others put Othor and Jafer to sleep, and then woke 'em up...

"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them." . . .

The morning was unnaturally warm; beads of sweat dotted the Lord Commander's broad forehead like dew on a melon. . . .

"Tell me how they died."

Squatting beside the dead man he had named Jafer Flowers, Ser Jaremy grasped his head by the scalp. The hair came out between his fingers, brittle as straw. The knight cursed and shoved at the face with the heel of his hand. A great gash in the side of the corpse's neck opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. "This was done with an axe."

"Aye," muttered Dywen, the old forester. "Belike the axe that Othor carried, m'lord."

Jon could feel his breakfast churning in his belly, but he pressed his lips together and made himself look at the second body. Othor had been a big ugly man, and he made a big ugly corpse. No axe was in evidence. Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer's. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires. . . .

Sam mopped at the sweat on his brow. "You . . . you can see where Ghost . . . Jon's direwolf . . . you can see where he tore off that man's hand, and yet . . . the stump hasn't bled, look . . . " He waved a hand. "My father . . . L-lord Randyll, he, he made me watch him dress animals sometimes, when . . . after . . . " Sam shook his head from side to side, his chins quivering. Now that he had looked at the bodies, he could not seem to look away. "A fresh kill . . . the blood would still flow, my lords. Later . . . later it would be clotted, like a . . . a jelly, thick and . . . and . . . " He looked as though he was going to be sick. "This man . . . look at the wrist, it's all . . . crusty . . . dry . . . like . . . "

Jon saw at once what Sam meant. He could see the torn veins in the dead man's wrist, iron worms in the pale flesh. His blood was a black dust. Yet Jaremy Rykker was unconvinced. "If they'd been dead much longer than a day, they'd be ripe by now, boy. They don't even smell."

Dywen, the gnarled old forester who liked to boast that he could smell snow coming on, sidled closer to the corpses and took a whiff. "Well, they're no pansy flowers, but . . . m'lord has the truth of it. There's no corpse stink."

"They . . . they aren't rotting." Sam pointed, his fat finger shaking only a little. "Look, there's . . . there's no maggots or . . . or . . . worms or anything . . . they've been lying here in the woods, but they . . . they haven't been chewed or eaten by animals . . . only Ghost . . . otherwise they're . . . they're . . . "

"Untouched," Jon said softly. "And Ghost is different. The dogs and the horses won't go near them." . . .

"This . . . this is all wrong," Sam Tarly said earnestly. "The blood . . . there's bloodstains on their clothes, and . . . and their flesh, dry and hard, but . . . there's none on the ground, or . . . anywhere. With those . . . those . . . those . . . " Sam made himself swallow, took a deep breath. "With those wounds . . . terrible wounds . . . there should be blood all over. Shouldn't there?"

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man. . . .

The day was grey, damp, overcast, the sort of day that made you wish for rain. No wind stirred the wood; the air hung humid and heavy, and Jon's clothes clung to his skin. It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking. . . .

Bowen Marsh was waiting at the first gate as they led their garrons through the icy tunnel. . . .

A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal. . . .

Later, much later, after they had marched him back to his sleeping cell, Mormont came down to see him, raven on his shoulder. "I told you not to do anything stupid, boy," the Old Bear said. "Boy," the bird chorused. Mormont shook his head, disgusted. "And to think I had high hopes for you."

They took his knife and his sword and told him he was not to leave his cell until the high officers met to decide what was to be done with him. And then they placed a guard outside his door to make certain he obeyed. His friends were not allowed to see him, but the Old Bear did relent and permit him Ghost, so he was not utterly alone.

"My father is no traitor," he told the direwolf when the rest had gone. Ghost looked at him in silence. Jon slumped against the wall, hands around his knees, and stared at the candle on the table beside his narrow bed. The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought.

Yet he must have dozed. When he woke, his legs were stiff and cramped and the candle had long since burned out. Ghost stood on his hind legs, scrabbling at the door. Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?

Ghost backed away from the door. There were deep gouges where he'd raked the wood. Jon watched him with mounting disquiet. "There's someone out there, isn't there?" he whispered. Crouching, the direwolf crept backward, white fur rising on the back of his neck. The guard, he thought, they left a man to guard my door, Ghost smells him through the door, that's all it is.

Slowly, Jon pushed himself to his feet. He was shivering uncontrollably, wishing he still had a sword.

[Scootaloo Stark]

 

There is something to that though...why else could Coldhands not pass through?

Crackpot territory: the Wall was built by the Others and so on, so it doesn't block their magic. It does block the magic of the Stark kids, or the Children (who are likely responsible for Coldhands).

[bent branch]

My thoughts on this:

Waymar is killed by the Others at twilight.
Othor attacks at night fall.
Battle/slaughter at the fist happens in the middle of the night.
The others pick off the wildlings at night.

I believe that the Others already had Othor and company. Othor was brought back to Castle Black night came he retained memory(think The Strain; show or books same process.) or was completely controled by the Others. I would like it to be completely controled Something along the lines of Skyrim's "reanimate dead". However They only come out at night and that's why it's taking so long to take out the wall waiting for the long night.

 

Yes, this is essentially correct. The wights cannot be active during the day. That is why the long night will be important. And I agree with your conclusion that that is why the Others are moving south so slowly. As the days grow shorter, the Others will be able to move south faster.

[butterbumps!]

There is something to that though...why else could Coldhands not pass through?

 

Since you're trying to delaminate the knowns about the Wall, I thought I'd point out that Coldhands isn't prevented from passing through the Wall.

 

He's apparently unable to pass through the Black Gate-- a wierwood door located pretty far underground.    That door might be far below the Wall's foundations for all we know.

 

So, for the sake of precision, we don't know that Coldhands can't pass through the Wall.   All we can conclude is that he can't pass through that Black Gate of enchanted wierwood that may or may not be entirely separate from and bypassing the Wall.

[pigpiginsunspear]

 

Since you're trying to delaminate the knowns about the Wall, I thought I'd point out that Coldhands isn't prevented from passing through the Wall.

 

He's apparently unable to pass through the Black Gate-- a wierwood door located pretty far underground.    That door might be far below the Wall's foundations for all we know.

 

So, for the sake of precision, we don't know that Coldhands can't pass through the Wall.   All we can conclude is that he can't pass through that Black Gate of enchanted wierwood that may or may not be entirely separate from and bypassing the Wall.

 

Yeah, that's fair enough.

 

If the wights/Others cannot pass through the Wall then the Wall has to come down or some intervening event has to take place...otherwise there isn't as  big a threat.

[butterbumps!]

Yeah, that's fair enough.
 
If the wights/Others cannot pass through the Wall then the Wall has to come down or some intervening event has to take place...otherwise there isn't as  big a threat.

yea, there's that.

 

Further, I'd also argue that the conditions of the Black Gate-- specifically that it's such a long walk underground to get to-- tells us that it's not connected to the Wall at all, but rather undermining and bypassing it.  I mean, why would the damn thing have to be so far underground and hidden if it's cutting through the Wall?   It looks to me like a clear case of undermining to get around the Wall by a party/ parties that are at odds with whoever is in charge of the Wall.

 

I would then point out that the Black Gate is all about the old gods and the Watch-- wierwood and that vow.  That it most likely goes under, bypassing the Wall, strikes me as a pretty good indication that these two parties were probably not the ones responsible for building the Wall, because if they were, they could have just built through it and not needed to undermine it.  (Or, at the very least, it tells us that they were not always in control of said Wall and needed to get around it, even if they were the originators).  In other words, I think this is a very good indication that the CotF and the Watch were at odds with another party which had control over the Wall for some time that necessitated the CotF and the Watch to create the Black Gate around it.

 

Anyway, I think the problem of the Black Gate raises a lot of interesting points about who that Wall is meant for.  Which entirely supports your point about the danger and crisis involved.

[mywintersong]

yea, there's that.
 
Further, I'd also argue that the conditions of the Black Gate-- specifically that it's such a long walk underground to get to-- tells us that it's not connected to the Wall at all, but rather undermining and bypassing it.  I mean, why would the damn thing have to be so far underground and hidden if it's cutting through the Wall?   It looks to me like a clear case of undermining to get around the Wall by a party/ parties that are at odds with whoever is in charge of the Wall.
 
I would then point out that the Black Gate is all about the old gods and the Watch-- wierwood and that vow.  That it most likely goes under, bypassing the Wall, strikes me as a pretty good indication that these two parties were probably not the ones responsible for building the Wall, because if they were, they could have just built through it and not needed to undermine it.  (Or, at the very least, it tells us that they were not always in control of said Wall and needed to get around it, even if they were the originators).  In other words, I think this is a very good indication that the CotF and the Watch were at odds with another party which had control over the Wall for some time that necessitated the CotF and the Watch to create the Black Gate around it.
 
Anyway, I think the problem of the Black Gate raises a lot of interesting points about who that Wall is meant for.  Which entirely supports your point about the danger and crisis involved.

Or they just wanted a secret passage? Gates and holes in the wall are obvious and attract enemies. Secret passageways have their uses, too.

[butterbumps!]

Or they just wanted a secret passage? Gates and holes in the wall are obvious and attract enemies. Secret passageways have their uses, too.

 

it's not just hidden, though, and they could have made a secret passage without digging so far down.     It's hidden and a painfully long way down underground and with this extra protection that only those who speak the Watch vow can pass through.    But it's how far down it is-- which is made painfully explicit-- with no indication at all of ice in the proximity (other than possible melted ice dripping down from above onto Bran), which makes it seem like it's positioned underneath the Wall, and quite possible that its existence is separate from and entirely beneath in order to bypass.