Tywin Overrated?

[Bobby b's bobby]

I agree.

I think what he did to the Reynes and Tarbecks barring the deaths of the children and innocents was needed because his family's survival was depending on it but outside of the Westerlands Tywin was unnecessarily cruel and brutal.

And the constant defense that he had to be is bullshit what did the Riverlands, KL, Elia and her children, Tysha, or his father's mistress ever do to the Lannosters?

Tywin was a evil little bitch who did cruelty and named it "for the good of our house" the Sack of KL, Elie and her babies, Tysha, his father's mistress was all for the good of Tywin not his house.

Well the daughter of the LP of the Riverlands took his son so he set her house on fire.

The sack and getting rid of the Targs got him a Robert and Cersei marriage and the trust of the crown and probably did make him want to touch himself because he got his revenge so that's not good.

[Stannis broatheon]

Only ASOIAF
As a strategist: His initial strategy agaimst the Riverlands was intelligent, and if Jaime did not siege Riverrun, he would have a huge advantage in the northern front. Retreating to Harrenhal was intelligent.
On the other hand he felt under Robb's trap that could have cost him the war.
As a tactician: His battles were usually failures except blackwater. He was defeated by Edmure Tully and Roose was able to run away with part of his host.
As an administrator: The Westerlands seemed loyal, and wealthy under his command. As hand he did not do much, and tristed LF too much. That is probably his biggest mistake.
As a diplomat: He was hated by almost everyone. The Tyrells came to his aid through LF.And 3 or 4 kingdoms hate his dinasty to death.
As a ploter: His biggest succes was the Red wedding, but he was always outsmarted by the Tyrells, LF and Varys. His biggest failure would be the purple wedding.

So I would say that Tywin was a great leader for Westerosi standards.

[The Wolves]

Well the daughter of the LP of the Riverlands took his son so he set her house on fire.

The sack and getting rid of the Targs got him a Robert and Cersei marriage and the trust of the crown and probably did make him want to touch himself because he got his revenge so that's not good.

The sack did not get him a marriage between Cersei and Robert for all Tywin knew Robert was still going to marry Lyanna. Jon Arryn's stupidity is what got him that marriage.

Anybody with a brain would not have aligned themselves with the Lannisters after the deceit that they showed to KL and the Targs.

[Lord Wraith]

Tywin is the best example of low cunning.   

 

So Cersei has the lowest cunning?

 

 

The sack did not get him a marriage between Cersei and Robert for all Tywin knew Robert was still going to marry Lyanna. Jon Arryn's stupidity is what got him that marriage.

Anybody with a brain would not have aligned themselves with the Lannisters after the deceit that they showed to KL and the Targs.

 

 

Jon Arryn did the right move at the time. Better to have lion on your side than against you.  It stabilized the realm we as far as it could be stable. 

[Bobby b's bobby]

The sack did not get him a marriage between Cersei and Robert for all Tywin knew Robert was still going to marry Lyanna. Jon Arryn's stupidity is what got him that marriage.

Anybody with a brain would not have aligned themselves with the Lannisters after the deceit that they showed to KL and the Targs.

Why not align with the lannisters I mean all they did was kick someone when they were down the someone who had pissed off all of you. Him getting the capital also saved you a siege or a very bloody win/defeat trying to assault it.

[Stannis broatheon]

Why not align with the lannisters I mean all they did was kick someone when they were down the someone who had pissed off all of you. Him getting the capital also saved you a siege or a very bloody win/defeat trying to assault it.

After the sack of KL the Lannisters had to be loyal to Robert's cause, so a marriage with the Tyrells would have been the best option in my opinion

[The Wolves]

Why not align with the lannisters I mean all they did was kick someone when they were down the someone who had pissed off all of you. Him getting the capital also saved you a siege or a very bloody win/defeat trying to assault it.

Why would you let someone guard your back like Jaime who just murdered the king he swore to protect?

Or Tywin who spent twenty years with Aerys and was his friend yet this same men came to Aerys aid when he called than got into the city and keep under a false belief that he was there to offer help and than he sacked the city and had a women and her babies brutally murder and than wrapped the dead bodies in his house colors and laid it at the bottom of the throne like a wraped gift.

Again why align yourself with people like that?

[The Wolves]

After the sack of KL the Lannisters had to be loyal to Robert's cause, so a marriage with the Tyrells would have been the best option in my opinion

Word the throne did not need them the Lannisters needed the throne.

[Stannis broatheon]

Word the throne did not need them the Lannisters needed the throne.

?

[The Wolves]

?

The Lannisters needed Robert/crown if they wanted any part in court.

Contrary to popular belief Robert and co did not need the Lannisters he already had the Tullys/Starks/Arryns on his side wih his own region and Dorne could have been won over with a promise for justice and the Tyrells would have been content with a marriage and the Greyjoys could have been brought to heel.

Robert did not need any Lannister.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Why would you let someone guard your back like Jaime who just murdered the king he swore to protect?

Or Tywin who spent twenty years with Aerys and was his friend yet this same men came to Aerys aid when he called than got into the city and keep under a false belief that he was there to offer help and than he sacked the city and had a women and her babies brutally murder and than wrapped the dead bodies in his house colors and laid it at the bottom of the throne like a wraped gift.

Again why align yourself with people like that?

Was his friend was key word. Well the Targs kids dead was a gift a new king doesn't want old heirs around same goes for the sack he secured the city and got rid of old heirs that's damn fine but brutal work. Though your right with Jaime I'd probably send him to back to Tywin cloakless.

[Lord Wraith]

Was his friend was key word. Well the Targs kids dead was a gift a new king doesn't want old heirs around same goes for the sack he secured the city and got rid of old heirs that's damn fine but brutal work. Though your right with Jaime I'd probably send him to back to Tywin cloakless.

 

You could have won Tywin by giving him Jaime back, still that leaves the problem of leaving Tywin out of the new dynasty.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On the other hand he felt under Robb's trap that could have cost him the war.

 

Well he didn't, seems to be a pretty common misconception.

 

• He moves West because he thinks Stannis will be held for months at Storms End
• Had Robb been at Riverrun, the Twins or the Westerlands he would have moved in. With Stannis delayed he has a window to deal with Robb.
• Neither Tywin or Robb knew about Mel and her abilities. It was not a plan on Robbs part, just good luck. Mel 'tricked' him, not Robb.
• Robbs claims to Edmure are easily exposed for being weak
• For starters Tywin had more horse with him than Robb had. 1/3rd of his 20k host was horsed and that does not even include the extra men in the Westerlands
• With 20k and however many thousands were still in the West it was Tywin who could split up his men and trap Robb.
• Robb and his army are pretty much strangers to the West. Tywin and his men are going to have the advantage with the terrain. It is one thing finding ground that suited Robb best and quite another expecting that Tywin or none of his men or the scouts still in the Westerlands would not know about it. It is an impossible prediction.
• The Westerlands is not the North, there are multiple roads in and out of there. Trapping him is not an option, not with 6k.
• At the time of the Battle of the Fords Robb was busy getting injured at the Crag. Edmure pretty much saved Robb from being caught

 

Robbs plan at best may have kept him busy had he stopped Tywin getting to the 50k Tyrell host that was already at the Blackwater and on its way to Kings Landing. Though it is still more than possible that a raven would have reached the Golden Tooth or a messenger caught up with him on his way West.

As a tactician: His battles were usually failures except blackwater. He was defeated by Edmure Tully and Roose was able to run away with part of his host.

 

Roose lost 5k. That was a heavy defeat. Apart from the Red Wedding, few battles resulted in the absolute annihilation of the enemy.

 

Not sure how you can say they were usually failures. Even ignoring his previous 40 years experience the War of the Five Kings had his side beat the Riverlands at the Golden Tooth, at Riverrun, capture Harrenhall, Darry, Raventree Hall, Stone Hedge, win at the Green Fork, beat at the Fords and win big at the Blackwater.

 

A lot of his victories get overlooked because there is little mention of them as no POV's were involved in them. Does not mean they did not happen.
 

As an administrator: The Westerlands seemed loyal, and wealthy under his command. As hand he did not do much

 Well he did. He brokered better peace in Westeros by abolishing many of the unpopular laws made by Aegon V, he prevented a huge unwinnable expensive war with Braavos and more importantly he kept a lid on the mad king. His 20 years might seem uneventful but that is a testament to his success. The realm was peaceful and prosperous, pretty boring but the sign of a great governor.
 

As a diplomat: He was hated by almost everyone. The Tyrells came to his aid through LF.And 3 or 4 kingdoms hate his dinasty to death.

Does that not make his success even more impressive? The fact that the Crown was able to keep the Vale and Dorne out of the war by offering incentives shows great diplomacy. Getting the Tyrells on side meant victory, a victory won by diplomacy.

 

Some diplomats gamble, and Tywin gambled on fucking over the Martells to get in Roberts good graces. It paid off, his daughter became Queen and grandchildren Kings. Cersei screwed that over.

 

His biggest mistake as a diplomat was the Riverlords, especially not getting the Freys on side at the start of the war. He turned a lot of potential 'royalists' against him and made it easier for Renly and Robb to rebel.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

You could have won Tywin by giving him Jaime back, still that leaves the problem of leaving Tywin out of the new dynasty.

 

Robert was not a politician. He was not going to punish Jaime, the man who had killed Aerys. Jaime was an adult, his fate was just as much in his hands as it was Roberts and Tywins and it seems unlikely that he would have forsook his white cloak. He's just as proud as the other Lannisters.

[Stannis broatheon]

The Lannisters needed Robert/crown if they wanted any part in court.

Contrary to popular belief Robert and co did not need the Lannisters he already had the Tullys/Starks/Arryns on his side wih his own region and Dorne could have been won over with a promise for justice and the Tyrells would have been content with a marriage and the Greyjoys could have been brought to heel.

Robert did not need any Lannister.

Why did you quote me? I mostly aggred with you.

[A Faceless Poster]

 

It seems to me that in that case you have thought much but shallow and not read enough in the books. Tywin is not overrated at all but has time and again proved his capabilities.

 

 

I agree in regards to Aerys.

 

What proof do you or we have that Tywin arranged his own marriage? It might just as well have been his father or even grandfather and if so Tywin is not a hypocrit. He married as his father or grandfather commanded, and he expects his children to do the same.

 

In regards to remarry I would like to remind you that everyone, including Eddard Stark, expected Jaime Lannister to succeed his father to Casterly Rock, Kingsguard vows or not. And even if so there were many other Lannisters that could inherit after Tywin. As such Tywin had his prefered heir, Jaime, and after him many other Lannisters to carry on the name. To that I would also add that Tywin may also have been shrewd enough to not create the situation for Dance of the Lions by creating more heirs of his body than was needed.

 

That Tywin's parenting was bad is more or less beyond a doubt.

 

But I disagree that Tywin slept with prostitues. Everything about that scene and the ones before it looks to much like a set-up by Varys.

 

 

 

In regards to Joanna, maybe she was a person who does things herself instead of running to her husband to have him do it for her? Remember that Tywin didn't spend mucht time home but was mostly in King's Landing to serve as Hand of the King, so is entirely possible that he wasn't even informed about the separate bedrooms or, you know, trusted his wife to handle things herself.

 

In regards to Kevan knowing I only recall that he stated to have known afterwards and if he did know, what difference would it have done? Exposure would have left his niece and her children murdered and possibly the king attacking House Lannister with even more deaths regardless of the outcome.

 

I agree that the Tysha incident was horrible.

 

 

 

How did she ruin Jaime or put him in the Kingsguard? The decision was ultimately Aerys, while Cersei is by sure no stranger to delusions of her own competence. What do you not seem to understand however is that Tywin at the end of the day is a human. That means that he can't know or foresee everything, and there's a great difference between a flawless superhuman and idiot.

 

 

This was the funnies part to be sure.

 

First you make a convenient jump over the Tarbecks and Reynes.

 

In regards to Duskendale Tywin had not broken with Aerys so its rather in his favor that he don't escale the situation to get the king killed, even while the king's pissing on him. That's a definite mark against Tywin's supposed pettiness.

 

In regards to the Sack the only thing that I think that Tywin did wrong was to kill the Targaryen kids. It would have been to let Robert bloody his own hands with it. But as you fail to see is that the Lannisters came late and were given a position right next to the throne with Cersei marrying the royal family. If you want to look what happened with other Houses that didn't do like the Lannisters, the Tyrells have been excluded from influence at court for well-nigh a decade while Connington and Darry lost considerbal lands due to their close association with the Targaryens during the war. And the problem with the examples that you give are that they are either seen as attempts to gain favor after having sided with the losing side or outright paid services. If the Lannisters wanted to gain power in the new order they needed a dramatic and irrefutable way to show that the Lions were for the Stag, even if late.

 

Why would Elia have been a witness to anything? Everything that she witnessed is supposedly already public knowledge.

 

The Sack was absolutely about revenge but then again, Tywin had other reasons as well. And as you may or may not know, its hard to control soldiers that spills out into alleys and houses to fight an urban battle. Not to say that its foolish to antagonize your own soldiers on behalf of an enemy city.

 

I'd like to point out that it was Euron who planned the attack on Lannisport.

 

Tywin's plan to capture Eddard wasn't based on hope but on emperical experience. And note that Eddard would have gone west himself if it wasn't for Jaime's men crippling him when the horse crushed his leg.

 

In regards to Kings Robert, Robert did nothing when the Lannister soldiers and Eddard clashed in King's Landing so why would he do something now? Robert is a coward who bends every time whichever side the Lannisters wants him to bend.

 

As for attacking the Riverlands, you might remeber that it was Riverland soldiers who captured Tywin in the first place at the behest of the daughter of Lord Tully. They look pretty guilty.

 

Sellswords can be double-edged, no question about it.

 

These "results" that you call it are all things that are beyond Tywin's controll unless you think that he warged Cersei after his death and paid Vargo Hoat to mutilate Jaime.

 

In regards to the Green Fork of course you can't decide how the enemy will behave, but you can expect something and make a plan after it, and considering that Tywin had the reserve ready I find it hard to see that they wouldn't have been able to plug that potential gap.

 

The part about Harrenhall was rich, really funny. Tywin takes a strategic position from where he can threaten the Riverlands and also keep his communications to King's Landing clear as to be able to respons to a Barathen push on the city. I could make a whole thread on everything else that you either get wrong or ignore.

 

Nah, I think you conclusion says more about your hatred of the character than anything else.

 

 

The problem I see with it is that it don't seem to take the new info from the World Book into account.

Well first of all I do not hate Tywin in any way. Regardless I'll go through all your arguments. First Johanna being forced upon Tywin is a ridiculous idea, Johanna was a first cousin to Tywin and Aerys was in love with her so the idea of the weak willed Tytos compelling Tywin into a marriage that was the one definitive incident of him smiling is as I said absurd. He wanted the marriage, it slightly alienated Aerys the king, and was among family thus making the marriage in anyway political unreasonable. Jaime Lannister was never expected to inherit, Ned thought of Jaime in terms of being Warden of the East in West which were military titles not inherited titles. The idea of kingsguard leaving and inheriting was created by Cersei, Tywin tried once to convince Jaime to do so and failed after the precedent was established. Tywin did not expect Jaime to be the heir until the precedent was created, and that is why he left the handship. Aerys stripped him off his heir. Joanna, Kevan, Pycelle all knew about the incest. All were allied with Tywin. If none told him, he has terrible informants and needed to develop better connections. If they did tell him like you would expect a loyal wife, brother, or servant to do he took no action with terrible results. Either way was a mistake in either trust or action. Cersei convinced Jaime after the first time they slept together in kings landing to become a kings guard so they could be together in kings landing, this gave Aerys the idea to insult Tywin with it and so on. As for the military thing, his handling of the tarbecks and other rebels I did not criticize. I said it was rutheless but effective and useful. With Duskendale I said he handled it right in the moment, what I pointed out is it sets up the theme of his actions having long term consequences and his supposed ruthlessness not being applied at all times when it actually could have been better. He realistically could not have known what would have happened after, but it was a point that his brutal methods could have been applied in different scenarios to better effect to clarify I dont disagree with the ideas of practical or cold tactics. The Sack was terrible for everything I mentioned, as I said the royal marriage of Cersei and Robert was not the intended effect considering no one knew lyanna was dead. Elia had to die because her child was taken from her and killed before her eyes,  making her a direct witness to the mountain's actions proving his guilt. A mother almost always we be with her nursing child so her witnessing its death would be expected. It was Euron's plan but Victarion enacted it, I dont hold it against Tywin considering it was a surprise but once again it fits with the pattern of him being caught off guard. The defeats stick out more when you consider the amount of straight battles he won. Finally his Ned Stark plan  makes little tactical sense, I dont feel like repeating myself. The Green Fork Plan inherently relies on one of your flanks failing, which in standard false retreat tactics you have the vanguard fail composed of trained troops aware of the plan so you can encircle and crush instead of fighting a flanking army. Retreating to an impractical castle that cannot be fully garrisoned while your own lands are being attacked waiting for an alliance you yourself could not arrange to work before defending the capital and your claim to power is not brilliant positioning. Its the positioning of a commander who is fucked and waiting for circumstances to luckily get better. Move to the capital you get crushed by initially Renly and then Stannis. Move towards riverrun and you get crushed by the Riverland forces. He tried the Riverrun option and got beaten back, but luckily in time for an alliance in high garden to be reached to enable him defend the capital without losing. Tywin having a good position by the end of clash of king had nothing to do with Tywin.

[Chaircat Meow]

Paragraphs.

[Stannis broatheon]

 
Well he didn't, seems to be a pretty common misconception.
 

• He moves West because he thinks Stannis will be held for months at Storms End
• Had Robb been at Riverrun, the Twins or the Westerlands he would have moved in. With Stannis delayed he has a window to deal with Robb.
• Neither Tywin or Robb knew about Mel and her abilities. It was not a plan on Robbs part, just good luck. Mel 'tricked' him, not Robb.
• Robbs claims to Edmure are easily exposed for being weak
• For starters Tywin had more horse with him than Robb had. 1/3rd of his 20k host was horsed and that does not even include the extra men in the Westerlands
• With 20k and however many thousands were still in the West it was Tywin who could split up his men and trap Robb.
• Robb and his army are pretty much strangers to the West. Tywin and his men are going to have the advantage with the terrain. It is one thing finding ground that suited Robb best and quite another expecting that Tywin or none of his men or the scouts still in the Westerlands would not know about it. It is an impossible prediction.
• The Westerlands is not the North, there are multiple roads in and out of there. Trapping him is not an option, not with 6k.
• At the time of the Battle of the Fords Robb was busy getting injured at the Crag. Edmure pretty much saved Robb from being caught

 
Robbs plan at best may have kept him busy had he stopped Tywin getting to the 50k Tyrell host that was already at the Blackwater and on its way to Kings Landing. Though it is still more than possible that a raven would have reached the Golden Tooth or a messenger caught up with him on his way West.
 
Roose lost 5k. That was a heavy defeat. Apart from the Red Wedding, few battles resulted in the absolute annihilation of the enemy.
 
Not sure how you can say they were usually failures. Even ignoring his previous 40 years experience the War of the Five Kings had his side beat the Riverlands at the Golden Tooth, at Riverrun, capture Harrenhall, Darry, Raventree Hall, Stone Hedge, win at the Green Fork, beat at the Fords and win big at the Blackwater.
 
A lot of his victories get overlooked because there is little mention of them as no POV's were involved in them. Does not mean they did not happen.
 
 Well he did. He brokered better peace in Westeros by abolishing many of the unpopular laws made by Aegon V, he prevented a huge unwinnable expensive war with Braavos and more importantly he kept a lid on the mad king. His 20 years might seem uneventful but that is a testament to his success. The realm was peaceful and prosperous, pretty boring but the sign of a great governor.
 
Does that not make his success even more impressive? The fact that the Crown was able to keep the Vale and Dorne out of the war by offering incentives shows great diplomacy. Getting the Tyrells on side meant victory, a victory won by diplomacy.
 
Some diplomats gamble, and Tywin gambled on fucking over the Martells to get in Roberts good graces. It paid off, his daughter became Queen and grandchildren Kings. Cersei screwed that over.
 
His biggest mistake as a diplomat was the Riverlords, especially not getting the Freys on side at the start of the war. He turned a lot of potential 'royalists' against him and made it easier for Renly and Robb to rebel.

Read my post again. I was just mentioning ASOIAF events.
And I think that Stannis was alredy movimg to KL before Edmure defeated him. I would have to check it again.
And as a tactician Tywin was nothing especial. He did not ended Roose's host, mainly because the river. And Edmure outsmarted him.
And as a diplomat is usually wiser to not be hated. The Lannisters were in a pretty bad position at the start of TWOT5K because the lack of support that they had, eventhou they were the richest family Westeros and probably the biggest creditor on Westeros with the faith and the IB. That just shows bad diplomacy on Tywin's part.
I wont comment on the rest because I was just commenting about ASOIAF events.

[Lord Wraith]

 

Robert was not a politician. He was not going to punish Jaime, the man who had killed Aerys. Jaime was an adult, his fate was just as much in his hands as it was Roberts and Tywins and it seems unlikely that he would have forsook his white cloak. He's just as proud as the other Lannisters.

 

True but it would have gotten him in Tywin's good graces.  That is all I was saying.

[Neds Secret]

I know Tywin's reasoning, but that does not make it anymore logical or acceptable. And regardless of his objections, do you really think it makes in any way sense to gang rape the commoner whose only crime was a socially inappropriate marriage? As I said that only encouraged Tyrion's pursuit of whores, which Tywin wanted to curb. If that story spread I think it would be more embarrassing to the Lannister name by far. Beyond that, Tyrion would have been happy living a simple life with a common wife. That solves Tywins problems right there. He could say Tyrion ran away, died, or anything in return for Tyrion staying anonymous. He would no longer have what he considers a walking unmarriable embarrassment of a son. Instead he chose a disgusting response that eventual got him killed and earned the hatred of Tyrion that will probably destroy his house. He once again was ruthless and abusive out of a sense of pride that ultimately killed him

I completely agree and his incompetence as a moneylender, ie Robert beratheon and his ignorance to the twincest and his general overreaction to everything completely convince me that Tywin Lannister is overrated, both by Readers and westeroseans!