Tywin Overrated?

[NorthGirl]

YESSSSSSS!!!!!

[thelittledragonthatcould]

First Johanna being forced upon Tywin is a ridiculous idea, Johanna was a first cousin to Tywin and Aerys was in love with her so the idea of the weak willed Tytos compelling Tywin into a marriage that was the one definitive incident of him smiling is as I said absurd. He wanted the marriage, it slightly alienated Aerys the king, and was among family thus making the marriage in anyway political unreasonable.

We don't know who arranged it, but the idea that it was an arranged marriage comes from the author himself.
 

That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III. Laking a heir (like Henry VIII) is just as bad as having too many of them. If you have five sons and you want to avoid that kind of problem, maybe it's not such a bad idea to marry the firstborn girl of the oldest son with the third son (or with the firstborn of the third son?), and that way you avoid fights and the bloodline remains united, so maybe that was the purpose of Tywin's marriage. Maybe it was Lord Tytos' idea, or maybe even Tywin's grandfather's idea, it depends on which was the exact time in which the marriage alliance was brokered, but I would have to check my notes because I can't remember.

 

Just because he loved her does not mean he brokered it. Tytos was still alive when the marriage happened, but it may even have been Jason or Tytos who arranged it.
 

Tywin did not expect Jaime to be the heir until the precedent was created, and that is why he left the handship.

 
He did not expect him to be released while Aerys was King. That was for a around a year. With Aerys dead he had his son-in-law and grandsons as Kings. He would have been pretty confident that he would have gotten his way.

 

We see that he still regards Jaime as his heir.

 

I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

 

Whether this was attainable or not is not really the issue, Tywin was arrogant enough to think he could do it after all Aerys tried to tell him his daughter would not be Queen and he made that happen.

 

Aerys stripped him off his heir. Joanna, Kevan, Pycelle all knew about the incest.

Joanna knew about two young children being close. That is not the same as knowing about the incest. She was dead before they started having sex and both were separated for much of their childhood.

 

I really doubt that Kevan knew before Lancel told him and even if Pycelle did know, that is hardly something that he is going to be able to tell Tywin. "oh yeah, your kids are fucking each other and have cocked up your plans by cuckolding the King, eh nice weather we are having..."
 

The Green Fork Plan inherently relies on one of your flanks failing, which in standard false retreat tactics you have the vanguard fail composed of trained troops aware of the plan so you can encircle and crush instead of fighting a flanking army.

Does it?

 

Tywin had the superior numbers, superior equipment, better trained army and the choice of terrain. I'm pretty sure that the battle did not rely on that one manoeuvre but was the one that was used.
 

Retreating to an impractical castle that cannot be fully garrisoned while your own lands are being attacked waiting for an alliance you yourself could not arrange to work before defending the capital and your claim to power is not brilliant positioning.

 
 It is not really an impractical castle. Tywin had the numbers to hold it and its location was perfect for his needs as it gave access to Kings Landing and kept him in the Riverlands were he could continue his effort.

 

He made the best of a very bad situation.
 

Tywin having a good position by the end of clash of king had nothing to do with Tywin.

Well yeah, we all know that. Renlys numbers should have won the war. Tywin, Robb and Stannis should all have been beaten by his superior numbers and more flexible government.

 

Alternatively the fact that he was in such an awful position also had nothing to do with him. You roll with the punches.

[Faydra]

So Cersei has the lowest cunning?

Cersei doesn't have any cunning.

[Sage of Westeros]

Tywin made the best of a bad situation and the bad situation he was put in happened because of superior northern tactics. Also Tywin sat at Harrenhal because Robb Stark was sitting at Riverrun. Once Robb moved west so did Tywin who would've made it home if not for Edmure and his noble failure of warfare. Then Tywin realized he couldn't push West without decent losses and so he turned back, was told about Stannis' march, and saved Kings Landing. Tywin is cruel, a hypocrite, brutal, stupid at some instances, but the colossal failures that happened to the Lannister alliance in Clash of Kings was not his fault and he repaired his faction/alliance the best that he could.

[Kaibaman]

I've always considered Tywin's pride and ruthlessness were the result of putting up with his father's ineptitude. Remember his father was a very weak lord who wasn't able to project fear or intimidate his bannermen and acted too leniently for a man of his position. He was so weak that people took advantage of him and essentially store from him as he was unwilling to collect debts owed to him. Eventually this lead to rebellion which almost destroyed his house. I think like a lot of people who had crappy parents, Tywin aspired to be the man his father never was. And it was from this experience that made him realize (although sometimes in a misguided way) that unlike his father he has to be utterly ruthless in everything he does in order to keep himself and his house on top.

[Frey Pie]

In world? Yes. On the forum? By some people. But he is also underestimated by many posters. He's a very good commander and competent politician, but not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Tywins two greatest strengths are his PR machine (rains of castamere) and his ability to capitalise on situations (such as during the war)

He did make several mistakes though. Leaving Harrenhal was a huge one, on par with the greatest mistakes of the series imho. People say he did it to trap Robb, disregarding the fact that Tywin could not trap Robb in a land with so many avenues of retreat. If Robb could get in he could get out. It's also disregarding the fact that Tywin potentially has 26000 men opposing him with Roose, Edmure and Robb. So does anyone truly believe he could defeat these armies, march back to KL and defeat Stannis? Deluded.

People also argue that he expected Stannis to be kept at Storm's End, disregarding-

What if Stannis, who grew up in Storm's End, knows a few secret entries?
What if Penrose is killed? He's the one who is keeping the castle from Stannis
What if Stannis decides screw this, leaves a few thousand men to siege the castle, ups stakes and marches on KL while Tywin is away? Which means a dead king and queen regent, and Tywin becomes just another rebel.
What if the Tyrells join Stannis?

Also, it is the Tyrells who won KL for Tywin. He did well to later placate them, but it was Tyrion and LF who won them, not Tywin. Iirc Tywin never considers them

But having said that Tywin is one of the most formidable characters in the book

[thelittledragonthatcould]

People also argue that he expected Stannis to be kept at Storm's End, disregarding-

That is what Tyrion tells us. I guess Storms End has a great reputation so he had reason to think it would hold out.

 

Also, it is the Tyrells who won KL for Tywin. He did well to later placate them, but it was Tyrion and LF who won them, not Tywin. Iirc Tywin never considers them

Well we have no idea what he was thinking as he does not have a POV. However he appointed subordinates and trusted in them to do their job. This is not a negative, it is a positive in a leader. Tywin trusted Tyrion and the Small Council to do what was best, Robb wanted Edmure and Roose to sit on their asses and do nothing

[Bobby b's bobby]

In world? Yes. On the forum? By some people. But he is also underestimated by many posters. He's a very good commander and competent politician, but not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Tywins two greatest strengths are his PR machine (rains of castamere) and his ability to capitalise on situations (such as during the war)

He did make several mistakes though. Leaving Harrenhal was a huge one, on par with the greatest mistakes of the series imho. People say he did it to trap Robb, disregarding the fact that Tywin could not trap Robb in a land with so many avenues of retreat. If Robb could get in he could get out. It's also disregarding the fact that Tywin potentially has 26000 men opposing him with Roose, Edmure and Robb. So does anyone truly believe he could defeat these armies, march back to KL and defeat Stannis? Deluded.

People also argue that he expected Stannis to be kept at Storm's End, disregarding-

What if Stannis, who grew up in Storm's End, knows a few secret entries?
What if Penrose is killed? He's the one who is keeping the castle from Stannis
What if Stannis decides screw this, leaves a few thousand men to siege the castle, ups stakes and marches on KL while Tywin is away? Which means a dead king and queen regent, and Tywin becomes just another rebel.
What if the Tyrells join Stannis?

Also, it is the Tyrells who won KL for Tywin. He did well to later placate them, but it was Tyrion and LF who won them, not Tywin. Iirc Tywin never considers them

But having said that Tywin is one of the most formidable characters in the book

ote]

Robb got in with a track and it's considered impressive he could get in nevermind out with 20ishk chasing. The 3 armies are all seperated with roose down thousands and little cavalry, edmure already with a heavy defeat and unproven and Robb just cavalry alone in the west. I agree beating those 3 and stannis is deluded but it looked like stannis would be at storms end which has never fallen except when the garrison flung a naked Queen at a Baratheon and Robb was alone in the west begging to be stomped on.

The Tyrells would never join Stannis there is mutual dislike and it's not what Mace wants.

Agree about lf/tyrion being responsible the Tyrells over to the Lannister side rather than them just sitting it out but Tywin is often blamed for the defeat in the west so why not the successes of those he appoints.

[Frey Pie]

That is what Tyrion tells us. I guess Storms End has a great reputation so he had reason to think it would hold out.

 

Well we have no idea what he was thinking as he does not have a POV. However he appointed subordinates and trusted in them to do their job. This is not a negative, it is a positive in a leader. Tywin trusted Tyrion and the Small Council to do what was best, Robb wanted Edmure and Roose to sit on their asses and do nothing

Storms end is a great castle but so us Winterfell. How did that go for Robb? Harrenhal is also very strong, and was taken several times during the war. No castle is impregnable. Storm's End is very take able at this time. So far as we know only Penrose wished to keep Stannis out. Mutiny anyone? How about if Stannis leaves a detachment and takes KL while Tywin is warring in the west? Whatever Tyrion's reason is it is wrong

I'm not criticising Tywin for this. What I am saying is people often praise Tywin for the Tyrell alliance when it was Lfs words and Tyrion's authority which did the job. I obviously admit it was Tywin who sent him there in the first place but did Tywin ever mention the Tyrells? And yes Robb wanted Roose to stay towards the north, where it's handy for him to guard the way home and also menace Tywin and keep him penned in while peace is restored to the liberated parts of the riverlands. And edmure was to sit on his hands should Tywin come west because that was Robb's plan. Other then that Edmure was given free reign to rule as he saw fit, same as Tywin did with Stafford, Tyrion etc

[Tolsimir]

As a ruler/politician? He's underrated if anything. Just because he was a piece of shit as a human being doesn't mean he wasn't good at his job. Many people seem to project their dislike of Tywin as a person (also the fact that he defeated the Starks) onto his abilities.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As a ruler/politician? He's underrated if anything. Just because he was a piece of shit as a human being doesn't mean he wasn't good at his job. Many people seem to project their dislike of Tywin as a person (also the fact that he defeated the Starks) onto his abilities.

 

Isn't that the justification many dictatorships (and their defenders) use to remain in charge? "Hey! I might be abusing my people, but at least things work!".

[Frey Pie]

Robb got in with a track and it's considered impressive he could get in nevermind out with 20ishk chasing. The 3 armies are all seperated with roose down thousands and little cavalry, edmure already with a heavy defeat and unproven and Robb just cavalry alone in the west. I agree beating those 3 and stannis is deluded but it looked like stannis would be at storms end which has never fallen except when the garrison flung a naked Queen at a Baratheon and Robb was alone in the west begging to be stomped on.

The Tyrells would never join Stannis there is mutual dislike and it's not what Mace wants.

I'm not sure if you agreeing with me at the start or not...there are several large passages in and out of the west, and many more unmapped such as the one Grey wind found.

Roose has at least 10000 men. Doesn't matter that he doesn't have many cavalry left. Add in the cavalry from the other armies and you have 9000. Edmure held Tywin on his own for days. The battle of the fords was long and had some costly skirmishes (how many bodies does it take to stop the flow of water?). Faced with 11000 Riverland men Tywin must have lost at least 1000 to 2000 men, with negligible losses to the other side. And that's against the greenest of the enemy commanders

Stannis could do as he pleases. He has over 20000 men and only needs to leave some at Storm's End and take the rest to KL to win the crown.

Tywin cannot know he wouldn't do this

[Stannis broatheon]

 
Isn't that the justification many dictatorships (and their defenders) use to remain in charge? "Hey! I might be abusing my people, but at least things work!".

Sometimes they are right. Look at Libya for example. Also the most stable and prosperous Muslim countries are monarchies in which the king is basically a dictator.

[Tolsimir]

 

Isn't that the justification many dictatorships (and their defenders) use to remain in charge? "Hey! I might be abusing my people, but at least things work!".

 

I'm not sure, never heard it. But even if they do, that doesn't change their abilities.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

:rolleyes:

[Frey Pie]

Sometimes they are right. Look at Libya for example. Also the most stable and prosperous Muslim countries are monarchies in which the king is basically a dictator.

So abuse is ok if you get results?

[Boarsbane]

So abuse is ok if you get results?

If by results you mean stability and order then yes some abuse may well be needed.

[Stannis broatheon]

So abuse is ok if you get results?

What would you prefer to live in libya post Gaddafi or pre Gaddafi? There is your answer.

[Chancho]

Kevan was better, but Tywin sells himself better, for good or bad, everyone fears him, Roose, Walder and Mace wouldn't make the moves they made if not for Tywin's reputation.

[A horsefaced girl]

He is certainly overrated by Cersei and Pycell