Tywin Overrated?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Isn't that the justification many dictatorships (and their defenders) use to remain in charge? "Hey! I might be abusing my people, but at least things work!".

 

Sure but Tywin did not install their society he is merely a very successful product of it. It's not like there was any less abuse in the generations before or that the generations after will be any different.

 

 

Social changes will eventually happen in Westeros but it is not Tywins fault that it largely accepted in his time.

[Lord Wraith]

Cersei doesn't have any cunning.

 

:lmao:

[Lord Ravenstark]

His plans simply resume to "I have money, fuck everyone"

[Lord Wraith]

His plans simply resume to "I have money, fuck everyone"

 

Don't you mean: "Screw the rules, I have money!
 

[Fat Mac]

What would you prefer to live in libya post Gaddafi or pre Gaddafi? There is your answer.

Dictators can bring stability, but usually at a great cost. And that cost is most likely going to be the well being of their people. Why? Not for any ends justify the means crap, but because they wish to remain in power and suppression of the people is a way to achieve that. That's usually how it goes.

Just because countries like Libya or Iraq are in chaos due to the instability caused by their overthrown dictators doesn't automatically mean living under those dictators is preferable. ISIS is causing tons of problems in Iraq, but under Hussein thousands of Kurds were getting slaughtered. It's stability but oppression vs instability and chaos. Neither are preferable.

[Stonehearted Snake]

The latest Radio Westeros was all on Tywin and they brought out a lot of the issues I had with him but way more concisely than I could have phrased them before. Tywin's biggest issue is that he does not understand that war and annihilation are not the same as winning and ruling. He doesn't get politics much at all. He makes these scorched earth decisions that have short-term success but very long-term consequences. He was the cause of his own downfall - all of his actions led directly to Jaime disavowing him and Tyrion murdering him. He doesn't understand that much of life is interpersonal relationships and that those can often take you much farther than annihilating your enemies.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The latest Radio Westeros was all on Tywin and they brought out a lot of the issues I had with him but way more concisely than I could have phrased them before. Tywin's biggest issue is that he does not understand that war and annihilation are not the same as winning and ruling. He doesn't get politics much at all. He makes these scorched earth decisions that have short-term success but very long-term consequences. He was the cause of his own downfall - all of his actions led directly to Jaime disavowing him and Tyrion murdering him. He doesn't understand that much of life is interpersonal relationships and that those can often take you much farther than annihilating your enemies.

 

 

 

What a bizarre statement. He's not Robb, he doesn't die at the age of 16 after making poor decisions, he is a man who has been one of the most influential leaders for 40 years. how do you define that as short term success?

 

And he obviously gets Westeros politics. You don't rule as Hand over a pretty peaceful and prosperous period without understanding Westerosi polotics. The politics of their society and ours are not the same, I'm not sure you see the differences,

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
Don't you mean: "Screw the rules, I have money!
 

He also owns the rules.

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
 
 
What a bizarre statement. He's not Robb, he doesn't die at the age of 16 after making poor decisions, he is a man who has been one of the most influential leaders for 40 years. how do you define that as short term success?
 
And he obviously gets Westeros politics. You don't rule as Hand over a pretty peaceful and prosperous period without understanding Westerosi polotics. The politics of their society and ours are not the same, I'm not sure you see the differences,

Plot. It is extremely unlikely that nobody ever tried to send assassins to kill Tywin. When you kill an entire family in a feudal system, people won't accept it so easily.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Plot. It is extremely unlikely that nobody ever tried to send assassins to kill Tywin. When you kill an entire family in a feudal system, people won't accept it so easily.

 

The whole book is plot, you can't cherry pick the things that you don't like as being 'plot'. The Lannisters are not the only House to have wiped out unruly bannerman, reading the History book there are many Northern Houses who no longer exist.

 

 

He killed all the males from both families, who was left to send assassins? It is not even like the two families were popular with their peers, the Tarbecks were stealing other Lords land and were being supported by the Reynes. When they were wiped out other Westerland Lords would have benefited by either being returned their land or being given some of the Reynes former lands.

[Stannis broatheon]

Dictators can bring stability, but usually at a great cost. And that cost is most likely going to be the well being of their people. Why? Not for any ends justify the means crap, but because they wish to remain in power and suppression of the people is a way to achieve that. That's usually how it goes.

Just because countries like Libya or Iraq are in chaos due to the instability caused by their overthrown dictators doesn't automatically mean living under those dictators is preferable. ISIS is causing tons of problems in Iraq, but under Hussein thousands of Kurds were getting slaughtered. It's stability but oppression vs instability and chaos. Neither are preferable.

Never said that dictatorships are good,but usually in unstable can bring prosperity.
And the very existance of an state means oppresion. Do you seriously think that in a democracy you are not oppresed?
The same that you said about dictators could be said about presidents/ prime ministers. They usually exploit the resources of a country to get reellected.

[Ramsay Gimp]

If anything he's underrated on this board. 

[Fisch]

When Tywin was Hand under Aerys, he seems to have been more than capable - in a time of peace, under a king who was his friend, a king who hadn't yet gone loco. But Tywin as we see him, embittered by his wife's death and his falling out with Aerys? He may have put House Lannister at the top, but the short-term victories that do so also breed the discontent that's begun to bring them down just as soon as Tywin is gone, a discontent that Tywin sorely underestimated. In alienating the one child he has that could have been a worthy heir and failing to see the truth of his other children, he not only showed serious failings as a father, but in this society, as a statesman in ensuring a stable succession. And Tywin does make several mistakes, at least in the books, that I don't often see acknowledged:

 

 - Does not pay much mind to stories coming from Essos concerning Dany.

 - Tries to play politics in the selection of the next LC of the Night's Watch, a brotherhood famous for its neutrality. 

(Yes, I'm aware that Tywin isn't the only person to make these mistakes. That's not the point.)

 - The biggest one of all IMO: just as much as Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and all the rest, Tywin is completely duped by Littlefinger, and only enables that schemer to do ever more damage.

[Lord Wraith]

If anything he's underrated on this board. 

 

From what I've seen that is true.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

- Does not pay much mind to stories coming from Essos concerning Dany.

 When does he have the time?

 

For much of the war he is away from Kings Landing and is only Hand in the capital for a number of months were he is preoccupied with many other important issues of state.

 

Besides Dany was in Quarth which is more than 40 days away from Westeros by boat, she was thousands of miles away. News had not reached or confirmed how powerful she was.
 

- Tries to play politics in the selection of the next LC of the Night's Watch, a brotherhood famous for its neutrality.

 

You're kidding, right?

 

How do you think a 10 year old Stark  was appointed Lord Commander without Houses playing politics, or how Waymar Royce and Jon Snow got fast-tracked to leadership without politics.

 

"Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen, but he served for sixty years. That's four, my lord. You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen. You're fifth youngest, so far." "The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North."
 

- The biggest one of all IMO: just as much as Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and all the rest, Tywin is completely duped by Littlefinger, and only enables that schemer to do ever more damage.

Well in fairness without Ltittlefingers contribution of keeping the Vale out of the war and being the chief negotiator bringing the Tyrells on side then Tywins side would never have won. While Littlefinger was directly responsible for the deaths of both Jon and Ned he probably saved Tywins (or at least some of his family members) lives.

 

And Tywin had removed him from the Small Council.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Your kidding, right?

 

How do you think a 10 year old Stark  was appointed Lord Commander without Houses playing politics, or how Waymar Royce and Jon Snow got fast-tracked to leadership without politics.

 

"Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen, but he served for sixty years. That's four, my lord. You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen. You're fifth youngest, so far." "The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North."

 

Well being literate, trained in combat, and being trained in leadership sure as hell doesn't hurt. Osiric Stark is your only decent example here, and yes I know that Mormont more or less says he didn't want to offend the Royces. OTOH who else is going to be a leader? He laments Ser Alliser being master-at-arms because he's a sadistic asshole whom everyone hates. There are 20 people in the Watch who can read. Waymar and Jon were stellar prospects insofar as any long-term leadership positions were concerned.

 

Frankly the Stark appointments to LC also work in *favor* of the NW. Tywin's choice most certainly would not have.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Well being literate, trained in combat, and being trained in leadership sure as hell doesn't hurt. Osiric Stark is your only decent example here, and yes I know that Mormont more or less says he didn't want to offend the Royces. OTOH who else is going to be a leader? He laments Ser Alliser being master-at-arms because he's a sadistic asshole whom everyone hates. There are 20 people in the Watch who can read. Waymar and Jon were stellar prospects insofar as any long-term leadership positions were concerned.

 

Frankly the Stark appointments to LC also work in *favor* of the NW. Tywin's choice most certainly would not have.

 

 

Would it not? Slynt had been leading 2,000 Gold Cloaks, surely he has more experience of leadership than Jon Snow does. The fact that Slynt, the son of a butcher rose to a postion that was usually reserved for high ranking nobility(Daemon Targaryen, Addam Marbrand, Manly Stokeworth) shows that he has some capabilities.

[Jasta11]

 

 

Would it not? Slynt had been leading 2,000 Gold Cloaks, surely he has more experience of leadership than Jon Snow does. The fact that Slynt, the son of a butcher rose to a postion that was usually reserved for high ranking nobility(Daemon Targaryen, Addam Marbrand, Manly Stokeworth) shows that he has some capabilities.

 

Slynt also arrives to the Wall after Mormont departs and never returns, if I recall correctly. You can't possibly blame that one on the Old Bear. At the time when he started grooming Jon for command, he really did seem at a complete lack of credible prospects, apart from the commanders of Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower who hate each other's guts. Slynt also failed to prove to the Watch that he had the right attitude and skills to lead them, as evidenced by him losing the election. Which means he perhaps would have made a bad commander.

 

As for Tywin, he was a competent politician, an able general and a highly effective administrator. That much cannot be denied, I think. That said, not only was he an asshole, but his dynastic management leaves much to be desired, among other errors.

 

Not only does his only truly capable child hates and eventually kills him, but his other two children made bastards under his nose which came very close to breaking Lannister power in KL. Cercei is a nutcase that is woefully unfit to rule (not Tywin's fault but still). He deludes himself that he can wrestle Jaime out of the Kingsguard and make him his heir too.

 

He also kinda failed to apply the maxim that he serves Joffrey, regarding how you should help a defeated opponent. The overkill he used against the Martells and Starks made them mortal enemies of his House, which could have dire ramifications in the future. Already the Dornish plot against the throne and the Northmen are apparently ready to oust Tywin's puppet.

 

Much of the above is driven by Tywin's pettyness. The Red Wedding, Tysha, the Reynes and Tarbecks, Elia's murder (and I believe he ordered it, or allowed it to happen), most of that were the results of his vindicative lashings to a greater or lesser degree, and all but the Reyne/Tarbeck incident would come to bite him or his house in the ass.

 

Let's also mention some errors he made during the War (such as failing to recognize Robb's strategy and abandonning Harrenhall only to be beaten by Edmure of all people) as well as relying on LF to save his ass (by dispatching Ned then bringing the Tyrells into the fold) then playing played by Baelish like a fiddle regarding Joffrey's death.

 

Overall, Tywin certainly made less mistakes than most. But he certainly wasn't a perfectly rational ubermensch who never made any errors, and his position at the end of the WotFK is due in no small part to luck and external factors, in addition to his own considerable skills.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Would it not? Slynt had been leading 2,000 Gold Cloaks, surely he has more experience of leadership than Jon Snow does. The fact that Slynt, the son of a butcher rose to a postion that was usually reserved for high ranking nobility(Daemon Targaryen, Addam Marbrand, Manly Stokeworth) shows that he has some capabilities.

 

Some capabilities maybe. He clearly couldn't cope with the tourney of the hand, he was insanely corrupt, and relied on and promoted brutal minions. He'd have been a disaster as LC. Delightfully partaking in Ned's execution, orders aside, show he has little to no grasp of the big picture or long term thinking.

[Fisch]

Well in fairness without Ltittlefingers contribution of keeping the Vale out of the war and being the chief negotiator bringing the Tyrells on side then Tywins side would never have won. While Littlefinger was directly responsible for the deaths of both Jon and Ned he probably saved Tywins (or at least some of his family members) lives.

 

And Tywin had removed him from the Small Council.

Littlefinger pointed out spies to Ned and led him to one of Robert's bastards.

 

Tywin was suspicious of Littlefinger even after he had given them Ned, even ordered an investigation of him. He ignored his own instincts, awarded Littlefinger choice lands and a choice marriage, and made him LP. Taking him off the Small Council for all these honours was one of the best things he could have done for Littlefinger's ambitions. As I said, he's as fooled as anyone else by Littlefinger, only his being fooled results in making Littlefinger even more dangerous.

 

I think others have covered the NW matter, and as for Dany - the point is, like the Others, she represents a looming threat to the established order that no one is paying any mind to, Tywin included. Some fans - including the two in charge of GoT - would have him some master chess player who takes measures against even such distant problems as Dany poses.