Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 the last dragon is a bit of a leap but not much i think, although rhaegar is called the last dragon, the repeated use of targaryens calling themselves dragons makes targaryens and dragons very interchangeable, also aemon fits the withered apple a lot better than rhaegar. (coupled with him being the last targaryen/dragon in westeros) i agree the worminess of the apple and how it splits in two is probably the bit im least sure about. (originally i had it as jon due to his death in adwd) at her time of birth i believe she was 5th in line to the throne rhaegar-aegon-rhaenys-viserys-dany (not sure if viserys comes before rhaenys?) that could work but then again it would need rhaegar to match the withered apple which i dont think fully fits the info we're given I think withered and dead are close enough, given that there is no special term for a dead apple. *shrug* At the time of Dany's birth Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaenys, and Aegon were all dead (assuming Aegon died). Viserys was barred from the succession before she was born, and we don't know if anyone in King's Landing even knew that Rhaella was pregnant. So really Dany was first in line if it hadn't been for the war that took the throne out of her family and gave it to her Baratheon cousins. Just so you know, the women come last in Targ succession so if the Targs had kept the throne, after Dany's birth the order would have been Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, Daenerys. That's assuming they wouldn't skip the girls in favor of the male Baratheon cousins anyway. The succession is a bit fuzzy in Westeros, as GRRM himself has said. We'd have to appeal to him for a final statement on what the exact order should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser plant Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 I think withered and dead are close enough, given that there is no special term for a dead apple. *shrug* At the time of Dany's birth Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaenys, and Aegon were all dead (assuming Aegon died). Viserys was barred from the succession before she was born, and we don't know if anyone in King's Landing even knew that Rhaella was pregnant. So really Dany was first in line if it hadn't been for the war that took the throne out of her family and gave it to her Baratheon cousins. Just so you know, the women come last in Targ succession so if the Targs had kept the throne, after Dany's birth the order would have been Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, Daenerys. That's assuming they wouldn't skip the girls in favor of the male Baratheon cousins anyway. The succession is a bit fuzzy in Westeros, as GRRM himself has said. We'd have to appeal to him for a final statement on what the exact order should be. why would it be both withered and cored seems kind of overkill ah my bad ill need to find something to shoe horn into their placement on the ground instead of in the tree just to make myself content now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 why would it be both withered and cored seems kind of overkill ah my bad ill need to find something to shoe horn into their placement on the ground instead of in the tree just to make myself content now Maybe because of the manner of his death? It's not everybody who gets their chest knocked in by a warhammer wielded by their cousin who hates their guts. If you want to use the prophecy angle, it could just be that they are apples but not The Apple that was Promised. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Being Dornish, Alerras would no doubt know the story of how dragons like Meraxes and Urax were killed -- through the eye. And since a thrown apple is about the closest thing to a moving dragon eye, he (she) is getting awfully good at the one skill that has even the remotest chance of taking down a dragon without getting your ass scorched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Being Dornish, Alerras would no doubt know the story of how dragons like Meraxes and Urax were killed -- through the eye. And since a thrown apple is about the closest thing to a moving dragon eye, he (she) is getting awfully good at the one skill that has even the remotest chance of taking down a dragon without getting your ass scorched. That too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Forget the apples. Peel the eggs... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128072-peeling-another-egg/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zizoz Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 FYI, the "Targs skipped over women in the line of succession" idea derives from a paraphrased quote by GRRM. It seems likely now that there was no actual law about it, but the precedent of the Dance was cited to justify passing over female claimants. (Here's a Tumblr post about it, and I know there have been a couple recent threads dealing with this as well.)IMO Bloodraven fits the wormy apple best. The weirwood roots in his cave are compared to grave worms, and his clothes are "rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms". (ADWD, Bran II) And his birth was much lower than Dany's, too, no matter her place in the succession.That would leave just one apple for Dany, Aegon and Jon, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 FYI, the "Targs skipped over women in the line of succession" idea derives from a paraphrased quote by GRRM. It seems likely now that there was no actual law about it, but the precedent of the Dance was cited to justify passing over female claimants. (Here's a Tumblr post about it, and I know there have been a couple recent threads dealing with this as well.) IMO Bloodraven fits the wormy apple best. The weirwood roots in his cave are compared to grave worms, and his clothes are "rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms". (ADWD, Bran II) And his birth was much lower than Dany's, too, no matter her place in the succession.That would leave just one apple for Dany, Aegon and Jon, though. It wasn't just something from after the Dance. There was a Great Council during the reign of Jaehaerys I that passed over a few good female claimants. That was the precedent used to help convince Aegon II to claim the throne over Rhaenyra. Then after the Dance it became tradition that all males came first in order to avoid a second Dance. GRRM's point about succession is that it's fuzzy and sometimes depends more on the political climate than the actual written rules. Great point about Bloodraven! Look for a scene in TWoW where Alleras shoots an apple from the tree and it splits neatly into three parts: the apple has three heads. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirewolfDubz Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think its a pritty cool post, Also think that GRRM could possibly put that kind of thing hidden in the texts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YunoGasai Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Well i always thought that Apples signifies Sansa since her name was from an apple. Alleras' arrow was a 'golden wood with scarlet feathers' breaking an apple in two was Sansa being broken by the Lannisters whose banners were red and gold and being split in two hence Sansa and Alayne. However it was also theorized that it's just another clue that Alleras is Sarella and the 'red apple pierced by a golden arrow' symbolize house Martell's banner----a red sun pierced by a golden lance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ser plant Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Well i always thought that Apples signifies Sansa since her name was from an apple. Alleras' arrow was a 'golden wood with scarlet feathers' breaking an apple in two was Sansa being broken by the Lannisters whose banners were red and gold and being split in two hence Sansa and Alayne. However it was also theorized that it's just another clue that Alleras is Sarella and the 'red apple pierced by a golden arrow' symbolize house Martell's banner----a red sun pierced by a golden lance. i saw a theory on that a while back i think but i didnt really like it tbh it can also be hinting at that but it doesnt need the level of prominence in that passage if its just hinting at who alleras is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I can see no evidence backing any of this. With all due respect maybe it should have stayed on Reddit. Is that where all the crazy shit, like what if Quentyn is still alive? comes from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Well i always thought that Apples signifies Sansa since her name was from an apple. Alleras' arrow was a 'golden wood with scarlet feathers' breaking an apple in two was Sansa being broken by the Lannisters whose banners were red and gold and being split in two hence Sansa and Alayne. However it was also theorized that it's just another clue that Alleras is Sarella and the 'red apple pierced by a golden arrow' symbolize house Martell's banner----a red sun pierced by a golden lance. This info comes from what? Is that where all the crazy shit, like what if Quentyn is still alive? comes from? Not sure about if Quentyn Lives being a reddit theory, but it is true that we don't actually 100% get total confirmation that he's dead. Barristan sees a charred body that's about the right size, but technically it could be one of the other people who was in there. However, if Quent is alive, then he's in very, very bad shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 How you like DEM apples? The scene was a metaphor for sex? Not only this, but sometimes I am unsure of the value of seeking out symbolism in an novel. It seems very subjective. Uh.... what? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YunoGasai Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 This info comes from what? http://acnursery.com/acn_apple.php?id=sansa i've eaten them. Thy're very sweet. Anyway the name 'Sansa' also means in Sanskrit "to please;to act as a charm; beautiful and attractive; a sorceress; to act as a leader" Arya in sanskrit means "telling of the truth; famous and remarkable; of extraordinary powers; Physically strong and remote from the family relative;" It can't be just coincidence. Obviously Martin knows his names of which will sound soft and which will sound strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avlonnic Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Nice post, OP. I quite enjoy discussions around symbolism and foreshadowing. There are some thoughtful and brilliant contributors on these boards and they tend to shine on a thread like this. Grave worms for the second apple is interesting. The text states Alleras hits the apple as it 'begins to fall' and the arrow splits it in half. I suppose one could speculate that Jon Snow had begun his fall and he will be 'split in half' if his spirit resides in Ghost while his body is chilling in an ice cell. Also, the Arwen pipes up with "If you cut a worm in half, you get two worms." So, we would get two Jon Snows for a time - the corporeal one and the Ghostly one. It is a curious thing that Alleras always misses the last shot. What is she doing differently? Is she closing her eyes so she can improve, even in the dark - sort of like Arya's training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 This info comes from what? http://acnursery.com/acn_apple.php?id=sansa i've eaten them. Thy're very sweet. Anyway the name 'Sansa' also means in Sanskrit "to please;to act as a charm; beautiful and attractive; a sorceress; to act as a leader" Arya in sanskrit means "telling of the truth; famous and remarkable; of extraordinary powers; Physically strong and remote from the family relative;" It can't be just coincidence. Obviously Martin knows his names of which will sound soft and which will sound strong. That doesn't connect the apple in any way to GRRM. He may not even know it exists. Thanks for the link though. I'll have to see if they'll grow where I live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kinkslayer Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Sansa is connected to the lemon-code not to the apple-code. That is known. The wormy apple stands for Rhaego as he was born "full of graveworms". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megz Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I should re-read, cause in the name of Old Gods, I dont have a single clue as to who is Alleras/Sarella. [blush] [blush] [hide] (emoticons don't work in the office). I see her mentioned so many times but actually i dont remember reading about such a character, let alone have any impressions about her. Shame of me! Why am I saying that? Well, it was too heavy a burden to carry around on my own :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodWood Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Interesting OP. I would say that given the level of detail about each apple and each shot at the apple there could be something here. Otherwise why bother? Why not just write each apple as a plain old apple? The text is overflowing with hidden references, it's not a stretch to investigate this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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