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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.155

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First, Ned does not have a negative thought about Rhaegar, which undermines any thoughts that Rhaegar dishonored Lyanna.  The only conclusion is that Rhaegar acted honorably and married Lyanna. 

 

Second, the savior of Planetos is the Prince that was Promised.  Obviously, if he is a bastard he cannot be a Prince. 

 

1. Ned knew too well that Lyanna did this due to her "wolf blood". 

In other words, Lyanna dishonored herself and her house by running off willingly with a married man when she was long betrothed to Robert.

Not to mention this led to the death of her father and brother. 

Honestly, even Rhaegar was a single man, Lyanna was still dishonoring herself.

What is the point to hate or criticize Rhaegar? All his negative thoughts on Rhaegar would apply to his beloved sister too. 

he tried to forgive his sister, at the same time his sister's lover Rhaegar. 

 

 

 

2. Jon is probably the savior, but not necessarily the Prince that was promised. We have Dany there too. 

AA and last hero were not princes either (correct me if I am wrong). 

Even he is indeed the prince that was promised, this does not mean he had to be a true born prince from the very beginning. 

He would be a prince and king eventually. 

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I think most all of the realm would have viewed taking a 2nd wife as dishonoring oneself anyways. It hasn't been practiced in 300 years.

 

Jorah is from the north and suggests it to Dany, but cmon.. we all know why he supported that.

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1. Ned knew too well that Lyanna did this due to her "wolf blood". 

In other words, Lyanna dishonored herself and her house by running off willingly with a married man when she was long betrothed to Robert.

Not to mention this led to the death of her father and brother. 

Honestly, even Rhaegar was a single man, Lyanna was still dishonoring herself.

What is the point to hate or criticize Rhaegar? All his negative thoughts on Rhaegar would apply to his beloved sister too. 

he tried to forgive his sister, at the same time his sister's lover Rhaegar. 

 

 

 

2. Jon is probably the savior, but not necessarily the Prince that was promised. We have Dany there too. 

AA and last hero were not princes either (correct me if I am wrong). 

Even he is indeed the prince that was promised, this does not mean he had to be a true born prince from the very beginning. 

He would be a prince and king eventually. 

1.  It does not matter, if Lyanna chose to dishonor herself, if Rhaegar assisted, he would be guilty of her dishonor.  Is it that difficult to understand?

 

2.  You are saying that Rhaegar is raping Lyanna to produce the bastard that was Promised, in one breath, and now changing it to Daenerys?  Come on, let's be a little more straightforward, and on track with the arguments. 

 

So that we cannot forget what we are discussing: 

1:


Well, because he thought that Rhaegar and his sister loved each other and did something naive, romantic, reckless and passionate like running off together from the world. Rhaegar behaved just like a teenager as 15-year old Lyanna. Apparently this type of person would not be like a rogue as Daemon Targaryen who always frequented brothels. 

 

2:


(Ned did not know that Rheagar was mainly driven by his obsession in prophecy. he ran off and slept with Lyanna mainly for the savior of this world)

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But Ned did not really know Rhaegar personally. What would make Ned so sure that Rhaegar would not frequent brothels? Marrying Lyanna would do it. Taking Lyanna as a mistress -- no matter the other circumstances -- less likely to do it. Any man willing to take a mistress might go to a brothel. He might not -- a man might be willing to do one and not the other -- but what would give Ned the confidence to make this conclusion? A marriage seems like the most likely reason.

 

P.S. I agree with ML -- Jon is the Prince that was promised -- not the Bastard that was promised.

 

 

No, in real life such did not happen. Babies who were potential claimants were not necessarily killed. And the point of keeping a captive is to prevent a claimant from being free. So the person who one wants to be captive is the person that the other side considers to be their King. That way the next in line -- who might be free -- cannot also claim to be King. So your factual statement simply is incorrect historically.

 

This is the explanation of yours.

IMHO, if you look at a handsome and sad crown prince who is willing to sacrifice everything (his own life, his wife and children, his dynasty, his people, his honor and reputation) to run off with a woman, you do feel he found his love of life and thus not a type of person who would frequent brothels. 

Let us say, do you think Bonifer the hasty would frequent brothels? or Aemon the dragon knight would frequent brothels?

This only proved that Ned thought Rhaegar loved his sister so desperately that he was willing to sacrifice everything for her: including being called as a cheating and irresponsible husband who ran off with his lover. 

 

Ironically, this is not true. Rhaegar did this mainly for his prophecy. 

 

A marriage can not stop a man from cheating or whoring. 

Only true love can. 

Ned believed that Rhaegar did everything for true love. Then of course he thought he would not frequent brothels. 

I failed to see why there must be a second marriage here. 

Maegor the cruel did a secret second marriage, still, he sounded like a guy who would frequent brothels. 

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If they were both equally guilty in dishonoring each other, Ned wouldn't necessarily despise Rhaegar..

 

Ned didn't despise Robert for being completely dishonorable in every sexual facet at his disposal.

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1.  It does not matter, if Lyanna chose to dishonor herself, if Rhaegar assisted, he would be guilty of her dishonor.  Is it that difficult to understand?

 

2.  You are saying that Rhaegar is raping Lyanna to produce the bastard that was Promised, in one breath, and now changing it to Daenerys?  Come on, let's be a little more straightforward, and on track with the arguments. 

 

 

1. I explained to you already, Ned did not want to blame them since he thought they did it for deep love. He loved his sister and both of them already died too. In his mind, he tried to forgive this pair of lover. What else can he do? trapped himself inside hate and wrath? He tried to forgive everybody, Lyanna, Brandon and Rhaegar. They all dead. Ned only had deep pain and sorrow inside him. 

 

2. Since when I said Rhaegar raped Lyanna? They slept together willingly.

Did you mistake me with somebody else?

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Lady Gwyn,

 

on the Glover thing:

 

Well, there is actual good textual evidence suggesting that Rhaegar didn't spend much time at KL after his return from the south. Remember, Jaime's monologue on where Rhaegar was when the wildfire plan was designed? We know Rhaegar trained new levies after his return, he did not spend much time at the Red Keep. He must have presented himself to his royal father and mother once or twice, but the idea that he would have went into the dungeon to talk to Ethan Glover of all people is far-fetched.

 

I really don't want to prolong this avenue of discussion, but I'm unsure what you're implying about Rhaegar's presence in KL since, according to Jaime "Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing."

 

Jaime goes on to say "Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. "

 

So we know Rhaegar was in King's Landing for a period of time and was too busy raising an army to forestall (or even be aware of) the wildfire plot (or to get involved with court politics like the appointment of Hands or the disposition of his mother, brother, wife and children.) Which is exactly in keeping with what I said--  that Rhaegar's position in KL was not one of great political strength, in contrast to your idea that perhaps Rhaegar felt confident enough in his position at court to let his father and the court know of his relationship with Lyanna. I don't see why the reasonable speculation of Rhaegar seeking out a prisoner that has a known connection to Lyanna is any more far fetched than that. 

 

(By the way-- to illustrate the difference between fact and speculation I colored the fact blue and the speculation red in your sentence that begins with "we know...")

 

 

Ethan could still have told Ned something, I guess, if his direct source wasn't Rhaegar but somebody else, but that would only work convincingly if he wasn't kept in the black cells all the time - which he actually wasn't. I've actually argued and find that still interesting that Glover actually may have been released, exchanged, or escaped long before that. Just because we don't know where he was in-between Brandon's arrest and the tower episode doesn't mean he was at KL all the time.

 

Especially in light of the fact that the tale about 'the fathers' of Brandon's companions being called to KL to answer for their sons crimes has already been revealed to be at least partially bogus. Elbert Arryn's father, Ronnel Arryn, was actually long dead by that time, having died of a bad belly around the time of Elbert's birth. Thus the theory that Ethan was spared because his father didn't show up doesn't hold any water because Elbert's father didn't show up, either, and he was executed anyway. This means Ethan's story could actually be much more complicated and interesting than we suspect up to that point. If his father did show up, he could perhaps even have won his individual trial for all we know

 

"The theory" about Ethan being spared was one of a string of ideas tossed off the cuff, which ended with the statement "who knows?" It wasn't meant to hold water, merely to illustrate a point. That being-- we really don't know what Ethan did for the duration of the war, and reasonable speculation based upon authorial technique and motivation is certainly acceptable. 

 

 

 

Anyway trying to sell me the idea that Rhaegar has told Ethan where the tower was so that he could Ned escort there has to give an explanation why the hell this did not help to settle things with the Kingsguard. Or was Rhaegar's plan to get Ned killed this way?

 

Actually I'm not trying to "sell you" anything. Surely your opinion is as valid as mine. We are drawing them based upon the same set of facts after all. I'm merely making a point that language like "ridiculous" and "fan fiction" are bit out of place when arguing from a position of one's personal conviction of what a fictional character might or might not have done. As I said, at a certain point it's all speculation :) 

 

 

 

 

Richard Lonmouth as a source for Hightower could only work if Lonmouth wasn't with Rhaegar at that time. We know from TWoIaF that Rhaegar had six companions with him when he left Dragonstone and it is implied that Richard was one of them (the others being Jon Connington, Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Myles Mooton - some even think the sixth was Lewyn Martell, but in light of Harrenhal I sincerely doubt that). Just because Mooton and Connington later returned to KL doesn't mean Lonmouth returned with them.

 

The idea that Hightower had special source for his search doesn't sound convincing to me, I have to say. Hightower was dispatched by the king, so Hightower would have gotten his preliminary information from Aerys II and, presumably, Varys, who would have had his agents looking for Rhaegar at least since the appointment of Connington (who was only named Hand because Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar, meaning he already searched for him). Hightower may have hints where to look because some informers/spies/people may have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna somewhere in the south, and he may have then found witnesses down there who pointed him in the right direction. I doubt that Aerys would only have sent Hightower - and a small contingent of men (the idea that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was traveling on his own during wartime isn't very convincing) - if he had already known where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. 

 

 

I'm well aware of what the World Book says about Lonmouth, and those who know me will know that I was cheekily referencing a certain, longstanding theory of mine ;)

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Oh, by the way, a secret second wife would not honor Lyanna as much as you suggested.

Maegor married Alys secretly even with the permission of Queen Visenya (and his first wife was barren for many years, no children at all).

But his second wife was referred as the "Whore of Harroway"

 

You can imagine if Lyanna showed up in the court with Rhaegar, what would people call her. 

In fact, it is better to be painted as a victim of abduction for Lyanna.

Seriously, If the whole country knew that she ran off willingly and happily with Rhaegar, then led the death of her family members and thousands of other innocent people, Lyanna would likely be called as "Whore of Stark". 

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Oh, by the way, a secret second wife would not honor Lyanna as much as you suggested.

Maegor married Alys secretly even with the permission of Queen Visenya (and his first wife was barren for many years, no children at all).

But his second wife was referred as the "Whore of Harroway"

 

You can imagine if Lyanna showed up in the court with Rhaegar, what would people call her. 

In fact, it is better to be painted as a victim of abduction for Lyanna.

Seriously, If the whole country knew that she ran off willingly and happily with Rhaegar, then led the death of her family members and thousands of other innocent people, Lyanna would likely be called as "Whore of Stark". 

 

:agree:

 

That's an excellent point

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Lady Gwyn,

 

well, my idea that 'the Lyanna issue' has to have been discussed at court after Rhaegar's return doesn't rest on Rhaegar's secure position. The assumption rests on the fact that Lyanna was effectively the cause of this whole war, and it was known to the important people in KL, most notably Aerys himself, that Lyanna had been with Rhaegar. The idea that this topic wouldn't have been raised after Rhaegar's return makes no sense in any possible scenario I can come up with. It would have to involve bad writing (that is a plot hole) or completely inconsistent characters - and that's nothing I expect there.

 

It is just one possible scenario that Rhaegar would have had no reason to keep quiet about if he was effectively in charge and/or if Aerys felt that he needed him. He intended to win the war, and effectively take the throne after he had dealt with Robert, so he has no reason to keep whatever he did to and with Lyanna a secret. If Aerys blackmailed him into service Rhaegar wouldn't be able to not speak about the Lyanna topic. And neither would he have a reason to do so if there was some sort of reconciliation between father and son.

 

We know Rhaegar was at least two times in the Red Keep, once, presumably, when he returned, and then again when he took his leave and talked to Jaime. It is not impossible that he talked to Ethan Glover when he was there, just as it is not impossible that he talked to Varys, Pycelle, Jaime, or a number of faceless courtiers who could later be Ned's source. But Varys, Pycelle, Jaime, and the faceless courtiers are much better options than Ethan, because there is no hint whatsoever that Rhaegar was even aware that this Ethan Glover chap even exists, let alone is still prisoner in KL (which is still unclear at this point).

 

He could still be Ned's source if he talked to other people, but the idea that Rhaegar visited that guy in his cell to talk to him about stuff just in case he would die makes Rhaegar looks to appear like some bad soap opera character rather than a real person. At least then we don't have the problem of Ethan running around at the tower, waving his arms, crying like a fool 'No blades, no blades! We come from Rhaegar! We come from Rhaegar!' That's just what I am seeing now there when I contemplate the possibility that he may have led Ned there following Rhaegar's wishes. 

 

I guess you mean the Lem theory there in regards to Richard Lonmouth? I really like that one, and actually hope it turns out to be true. But if he was at the Trident he could actually have been Ned's source if Ned and his gang happened to take him captive or talk to him after he was taken (Robert being incapacitated and all makes this not unlikely). But we still lack sufficient information on all that. This is all connected to the Connington-and-Mooton mystery (why did they return to KL and Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Oswell and Arthur did not). Lonmouth may have been with them, but he could also have been with Rhaegar to the end.

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APP: Rumor came to the KL that Rhaegar was in the south in a place he called TOJ with Lyanna. (not that accurate)

Whoever spread this rumor and made people know about his location, Ned could also hear from him or her. 

It was not a secret before he came back, and it was definitely not a secret after he came back. 

He could not travel alone back to KL from TOJ either. He had to have some companion.

I think it is not hard to know where he was.

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APP: Rumor came to the KL that Rhaegar was in the south in a place he called TOJ with Lyanna. (not that accurate)

Whoever spread this rumor and made people know about his location, Ned could also hear from him or her. 

It was not a secret before he came back, and it was definitely not a secret after he came back. 

He could not travel alone back to KL from TOJ either. He had to have some companion.

I think it is not hard to know where he was.

 

The app is also routinely misquoted as saying that Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar. The app actually says

 

 

Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties

 

Hightower was sent by Aerys to tell Rhaegar to come back after they already knew where he was. Rhaegar's location wasn't a secret by the time Hightower left King's Landing

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The app is also routinely misquoted as saying that Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar. The app actually says

 

 

Hightower was sent by Aerys to tell Rhaegar to come back after they already knew where he was. Rhaegar's location wasn't a secret by the time Hightower left King's Landing

 

True. It is not so easy for a crown prince and several KG to disappear completely even if he wanted to be isolated from the world. 

Somebody may see them on the road, somebody may see them have contact with the local people (need to get food supply and daily stuff for TOJ). They would need to go through a lot of passes and castles. etc. etc. 

Aerys recalled him until he found the rebellion was too serious, not until he finally discovered his location. 

 

Is it possible that Aerys let Rhaegar work on his prophecy and only recalled him back when the war seemed losing? 

Anyway Aerys is also a Targ. During the rebellion it seems like he trusted and tried to protect his son.

He was mad at Brandon when Brandon threatened Rhaegar. he listened to his suggestion about Tywin. 

He was mad at his death and blamed it on Prince Lywen.  

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Talking about polygamy, I do feel that if there is one case, then jon may marry both arya and dany.
King jon with his wolf queen and dragon queen.
Sounds pretty cool.
Not sure the relationship between arya and dany, though.

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We know that Aerys 'couldn't find Rhaegar' when he appointed Connington his Hand, so it is clear that he didn't know precisely where he was at this time. But I'd agree that the idea that Aerys actually sent Hightower to search for Rhaegar, possibly even on his own as some suggest, makes little sense. The man was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and the Iron Throne was fighting against rebels. If this was a search mission with no (good) hints then Aerys most likely would not have sent Hightower.

 

Polygamy is most likely introduced as a concept to foreshadow Daenerys as a female version of Aegon the Conqueror, not so much for the whole Rhaegar thing. Whatever Jon Snow's role might be, his Targaryen blood will be important for that, and he could have inherited that from the wrong side of the blanket easily enough. And if George wants to make him king in the end he could easily legitimize him, that's common enough, too. Not to mention that he could actually have written the story in a way that Elia was already dead when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna - say, having died during Aegon's birth.

 

Targaryen polygamy also sets up a precedent for Rhaegar, but what he did seems to more the setting aside of a woman to take a new and fertile wife - like Prince Maegor did when he married Alys Harroway - not total polygamy like the Conqueror who slept with both his sister-wives during the same time, or like Maegor the Cruel later with Alys and Tyanna, and later still with Tyanna and the black brides.

But I really don't think Rhaegar's actions and intentions with Lyanna will become a major plot point in future novels.

 

It is clear that they were married, I think, from the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son - suggesting that he wasn't. Then there is the fact that he makes Jon his own bastard rather than Lyanna - a workable option if Lyanna and Rhaegar hadn't been married, or were not known to be married. Nobody would have had any reason to murder Rhaegar's bastard, just as Renly (or Stannis) had no (political) reason to murder Edric Storm.

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Polygamy is most likely introduced as a concept to foreshadow Daenerys as a female version of Aegon the Conqueror, not so much for the whole Rhaegar thing. 

 

 

:lmao:

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LV--

 

The idea that the location of ToJ was not really a secret is intriguing, but one fact keeps coming back to me that I cannot make sense of if the location was not really a secret. Why did Hightower stay at ToJ? The only plausible explanation for why Hightower would stay at ToJ is if Rhaegar believes that he needs to keep the location secret from Aerys. Hightower would have to tell Aerys, if asked, where Lyanna was located. Rhaegar can avoid answering this question -- and Aerys, needing Rhaegar to lead the battle, might not even want to ask as it would potentially create a fight when Aerys wants Rhaegar to be focused on winning the war.

 

I strongly disagree that Rhaegar not telling anyone the location of ToJ after his return to KL is a plot hole. Assuming Rhaegar's number one priority is the safety of Lyanna and even more important, the baby, then he very well would refuse to tell the location. And I really don't think Aerys would try to push the issue if Rhaegar made it clear that he had no intention of answering. And Aerys would not think that Lyanna was the cause of the war -- I think Aerys would consider Brandon or Robert or Jon Arryn to be the cause of the war. Lyanna's purpose for Aerys would be to use as a weapon against the rebels -- but keeping Rhaegar on track to lead the charge is more important than to try to obtain Lyanna as a hostage.

 

More to the original question, if Aerys already knows the location of ToJ, why would Hightower stay at ToJ? Wouldn't Hightower return to KL either to join the war or guard Aerys? What is your theory for the circumstances under which Hightower would stay at ToJ if the location is not a secret from Aerys -- and intended to remain a secret even after Rhaegar returns to KL?

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We know that Aerys 'couldn't find Rhaegar' when he appointed Connington his Hand, so it is clear that he didn't know precisely where he was at this time. But I'd agree that the idea that Aerys actually sent Hightower to search for Rhaegar, possibly even on his own as some suggest, makes little sense. The man was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and the Iron Throne was fighting against rebels. If this was a search mission with no (good) hints then Aerys most likely would not have sent Hightower.
 
Polygamy is most likely introduced as a concept to foreshadow Daenerys as a female version of Aegon the Conqueror, not so much for the whole Rhaegar thing. Whatever Jon Snow's role might be, his Targaryen blood will be important for that, and he could have inherited that from the wrong side of the blanket easily enough. And if George wants to make him king in the end he could easily legitimize him, that's common enough, too. Not to mention that he could actually have written the story in a way that Elia was already dead when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna - say, having died during Aegon's birth.
 
Targaryen polygamy also sets up a precedent for Rhaegar, but what he did seems to more the setting aside of a woman to take a new and fertile wife - like Prince Maegor did when he married Alys Harroway - not total polygamy like the Conqueror who slept with both his sister-wives during the same time, or like Maegor the Cruel later with Alys and Tyanna, and later still with Tyanna and the black brides.
But I really don't think Rhaegar's actions and intentions with Lyanna will become a major plot point in future novels.
 
It is clear that they were married, I think, from the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son - suggesting that he wasn't. Then there is the fact that he makes Jon his own bastard rather than Lyanna - a workable option if Lyanna and Rhaegar hadn't been married, or were not known to be married. Nobody would have had any reason to murder Rhaegar's bastard, just as Renly (or Stannis) had no (political) reason to murder Edric Storm.

Not sure. But if Robert knew there was a bastard of lyanna by rhaegar, it sounds like he had even more reasons to kill Jon considering how much hate he had in this whole rhaegar and lyanna stuff. He may also blame jon for lyanna's death like tywin too.
And renly would not kill bastards of Robert, partly due to nephew kinsalying stuff. I think.
Robert did not this concern with jon. They were too distantly related.

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Not sure. But if Robert knew there was a bastard of lyanna by rhaegar, it sounds like he had even more reasons to kill Jon considering how much hate he had in this whole rhaegar and lyanna stuff. He may also blame jon for lyanna's death like tywin too.

Well -- the boy also would be Lyanna's son -- and as a bastard would not be a strong claimant to the Targ dynasty and would not officially even be a Targaryen. Lyanna seemed absolutely desperate for Ned to promise something -- most likely to keep Jon's true identity a secret. While possible that Lyanna would have this fear even if Jon is only the bastard son of Rhaegar, the level of fear that she seemed to display is justified more clearly if Lyanna understands that Jon is a direct threat to Robert as the true-born son of Rhaegar. So while not 100% proof (I suppose nothing can be until GRRM does the big reveal), the supporting evidence that Ned and Lyanna thought Jon was the true-born son of Rhaegar (and thus that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married) keeps piling up.

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