Best Monarch We've Seen

[ser plant]

Ser Plant@ I disagree, Balon's military plan fall because he made strategic mistakes from the start.

not really especially in wot5k the taking of moat cailin was to act as an anvil against the north and the souths attack, the landings on the western coast were to stop the north forming up an army and descending on moat cailin in a co-ordinated attack with, but the red wedding happened meaning there was no attack from the south and ramsey was a treacherous bastard so the north never managed to amass any troops to descend on moat cailin, leaving them waiting for an attack which would never materialise, then he died

[ser plant]

caspoi also in the rebellion he didnt realise how cautious doran was and how treacherous mace was

[Caspoi]

Moat Cailin only really works against the South so if it had not been for the Bolton (and later Frey) treacheries the ironborn would not even have held their fortifications for as long as they did. But even if Balon had succeeded he would only pave way for a powrful Iron Throne that decides that i wants to have the North and the iron islands back. The only way for the ironborn to achive a long-standing independence is if the superpower of the iron throne disintergrates, the oppurtunity presented by the northen rebellion. At the end of the day the ironborn will never be able to withstand the Power of the riverlands, vale, westerlands, crownlands, stormlands, reach and dorne. but if they only have to face some of them, while having allies with the others, it might work.

[Lord Cadwan]

I am not sure if you can call Balon the 'best' king, he is ironborn after all. However he was definitely the most cunning and successful of the five kings. He learnt from his first rebellion that he did not have the power to defy the iron throne so instead he attempted to ally with it. He took advantage of another rebel leaving his kingdom with 20000 of his best troops to take a succession of major castles in the west of the north for the loss of between 500-1000 men. He held Moat Cailin that had never been taken from the south and so prevented his new kingdom from being taken from the south. The only way he could have been defeated, save an assassination by his brother, was if the remaining northern lords had rallied to drive the Ironborn out of the North which they did not seem likely to do. In my opinion the only reason Balon is not recognised as a successful monarch who massively increased the size of his realm for few losses and did not succumb to pride and overreach himself is because everyone loves the Starks and it was his successes that caused the Starks defeat in the war of the five kings.

[ser plant]

Moat Cailin only really works against the South so if it had not been for the Bolton (and later Frey) treacheries the ironborn would not even have held their fortifications for as long as they did. But even if Balon had succeeded he would only pave way for a powrful Iron Throne that decides that i wants to have the North and the iron islands back. The only way for the ironborn to achive a long-standing independence is if the superpower of the iron throne disintergrates, the oppurtunity presented by the northen rebellion. At the end of the day the ironborn will never be able to withstand the Power of the riverlands, vale, westerlands, crownlands, stormlands, reach and dorne. but if they only have to face some of them, while having allies with the others, it might work.

its still a formidable fortress when well garrisoned even if had to be attacked from the north. the norh was never conquered by the andals due to moat cailin and now the iron born had access to the narrow sea, it would be by no means a done thing if they were able to hold the north and the isles against the rest of the 7k

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis, Mance and Robert. In that order.

[Fat Mac]

 
Balon's plans failed because Tywin found a more efficient way to dispose of Robb, that's about it.
 
And of course, because he was subsequently murdered by his brother. Up until then, his conquest was all roses.

I'm not a Balon fan in any way, but it's funny how people completely dismiss him even though he only had victories. The only battle the IB lost in the North was due to something he didn't even order.

Now the situation was a bit more complex thinking about the long term. He likely couldn't have held his conquests forever. But still, as you say, under Balon they were only succeeding.

[ConfusedCounselor]

 And in between he defeated maesters and the faith, both proven troublemakers.

 

 

Regardless if you believe in some Grand Maester conspiracy, the normal maesters found at most castles are the very useful people who help you communicate, heal you when you are sick and educate your children. 

Not to mention there actually still are some maesters on the Iron Isles.

 

The faith hasn't been proven to be much more troublemaking then the priests of the drowned god. When he died the throne did not go to his heir Asha, who would also be his heir by greenland rules if we consider Theon out of the equation due to his imprisonement with no prospect of return. Instead, his priest brother called upon a kingsmoot which continued to elect the brother that killed him. That worked out will for him. 

 

In general he won some easy tactical 'victories' without a good long term strategy of how he would defend them or retain his independence. Then he died and whatever he conquered in the North was lost again along with the freedom (and manly bits) of his two remaining children. 

 

Now the situation was a bit more complex thinking about the long term. He likely couldn't have held his conquests forever. But still, as you say, under Balon they were only succeeding. 

 

 

Short sighted, short term gains that will guaranteed be lost or even backfire in the medium to long term is a poor kind of success.  

[Caspoi]

ser plant@ Moat Cailin is a ruin, without the proper garrison. One major Point is that it is only really effective against the South and this does not consider the fact that the northmen know the land better than the ironborn.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Balon's plans failed because Tywin found a more efficient way to dispose of Robb, that's about it.

 

And of course, because he was subsequently murdered by his brother. Up until then, his conquest was all roses.

 

And even then it was not completely ruled out.

 

"You will marry and you will breed. Every child you birth makes Stannis more a liar." Their father's eyes seemed to pin her to her chair. "Mace Tyrell, Paxter Redwyne, and Doran Martell are wed to younger women likely to outlive them. Balon Greyjoy's wife is elderly and failing, but such a match would commit us to an alliance with the Iron Islands, and I am still uncertain whether that would be our wisest course."

 

The only part of Balons plan that failed him was Roose and Walder betraying Robb first.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

 

Short sighted, short term gains that will guaranteed be lost or even backfire in the medium to long term is a poor kind of success.  

 

 

Considering the absolute failings of some of his rival kings, any kind of success should be a valid reason for being a superior King.

[Sullen]

I'm not a Balon fan in any way, but it's funny how people completely dismiss him even though he only had victories. The only battle the IB lost in the North was due to something he didn't even order.

Now the situation was a bit more complex thinking about the long term. He likely couldn't have held his conquests forever. But still, as you say, under Balon they were only succeeding.

 

Most people Balon because they see Robb as being undefeatable if not for his attack on the North, it's a mix of frustration and PoV bias.

 

Also, I have no doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, especially if he decides to make a deal with Tywin, keep his conquests, and bring back the Iron Isles/North under the authority of the Iron Throne.

[ser plant]

ser plant@ Moat Cailin is a ruin, without the proper garrison. One major Point is that it is only really effective against the South and this does not consider the fact that the northmen know the land better than the ironborn.

thats true although with about 65 of the ironborn repelled 3 northern attacks during the siege after all there forces returned to the islands. they initially took moat cailin with most of the Iron islands forces which is a good 20,000 at least

[Mark Antony]

This thread made me realize how weak pretty much all the Monarchs have been

[The Wolves]

 
Most people Balon because they see Robb as being undefeatable if not for his attack on the North, it's a mix of frustration and PoV bias.
 
Also, I have no doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, especially if he decides to make a deal with Tywin, keep his conquests, and bring back the Iron Isles/North under the authority of the Iron Throne.

How was he to keep the North during winter?

Even Tywin thought that come winter the Ironborn wasn't going to make it and they weren't.

And no he wasn't going to bring the North back under the throne it's too big, too many Northernmen and the Ironborn was better fighting on sea than land.

Balon's plan was stupid, short lived and gained him nothing but dead men and once again his children captive of Northernmen.

[targurl 15]

Renly had zero war experience, that's why plebs like you die in wars.

That was unnecessary.He/She was just sharing their opinion

[ASOIAF_Ali]

1.Mance Rayder "King beyond the Wall": seems to be the best king. He has managed to unify a very divided people and bring them together under his rulership. He has led them to relative safety and seems to have his people's best interests at heart. He also seems like a pretty decent guy. 

2.King Stannis: he is harsh and unpopular but I think he's actually a pretty good ruler. He is very fair with his subjects and gives them what he feels is just (both good and bad), he also has the best interests of the realm in mind, which is a good thing when you have to deal with an invasion of ice zombies. Whilst he's not the most charismatic, I feel that Stannis is someone that I could follow and have faith in to take action when it is needed. Ranked second for his inability to inspire love in his subjects.

3.Queen Daenerys: whilst she is inexperienced (and this sometimes shows) she has a vision, has taken visible steps towards it with nothing, and I believe she genuinely has her people's best interests at heart. She's also tough, and has proven her ability to stick with things as well as gain the love and trust of her subjects. 

4.King Robb: militarily, Robb did very well. He was honourable and believed in his cause, which are only good things of course, but his inexperience cost him his life which shows that he didn't really have the smarts to deal with his subjects and limited political ability. 

5.King Aegon: we haven't gotten a lot of info about him yet, but from his brief appearances Aegon seems like an able kid. He has a regal education and has taken decisive action during his short time in westeros. We haven't seen how he deals with his subjects yet and he does seem to be lacking in patience, which may cost him in the future. 

6.King Robert: not too bad, I don't think. I know he was pretty lousy in terms of actually doing anything productive and liked to drink and whore, and was a bit of a jerk, but his actual reign was pretty peaceful. 

7.King Euron: he's a jerk, but in the short time he has been king, there has been progression. He has a lot of ambition and encourages this in his subjects as well, however he doesn't seem to have his people's trust and has mainly shown to be keeping them in hand through bribery and fear. He seems pretty smart though, for an ironborn. 

8.King Balon: I know a lot of people don't like him, but his people were united under him and at least he had ambition. He brought his people more glory than they would have had otherwise, and whilst he certainly wasn't the best king, I don't believe he was the worst either. His attitude kind of sucked though.  

9.King Renly: the opposite of Stannis really. Popular, charismatic and cares for his people, which are good things certainly, however I don't feel that Renly really had to prove himself, he didn't have the experience, and whilst he didn't make any outright mistakes, he was never really tested. 

10.King Tommen: a bit of a non-entity (but he is only a kid) in that his councillors and mother are basically running the realm under his name. I don't see him surviving, but if he did, he may become a decent monarch when he can rule on his own since he seems like a decent kid. 

11.King Joffrey: terrible whilst he lasted. Had way too much fun victimising his subjects and generally acted like a spoilt brat. That being said, he was only 13, so there was a chance that he could have gotten better, but he could have also gotten worse. 

12.Viserys Targaryen "The Beggar King": he would have probably been a bad king. He has shown very poor judgement, and made threats to Dany when she was weaker than he was, but was pretty spineless when dealing with people with strength. I don't believe he would have been able to unite anyone and didn't seem like someone most people would follow.  

 

Aurane Waters "The Pirate King": we don't really have enough info on him yet to know whether he would be any good or not so I haven't ranked him. He has shown he can gain people's trust though (Cersei) and he certainly has guts. 

[Witch]

Cersei, obviously.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Most people Balon because they see Robb as being undefeatable if not for his attack on the North, it's a mix of frustration and PoV bias.

 

 

No, it is frustration at the fairly idiotic decision making. I like the Starks a lot more then Tywin (though he is a great character) but can see Tywin at least fought a strategically smart campaign.

 

 

Also, I have no doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, especially if he decides to make a deal with Tywin, keep his conquests, and bring back the Iron Isles/North under the authority of the Iron Throne.

 

And why would Tywin make a deal? Moreover, I thought his independence was so dear to him, now he want to throw that away for some of the poorer places in the north?

I doubt he could have held on to what he captured in the North, even if he makes a deal with Tywin. Would Tywin really care if in a couple of years the Northmen decide to kick out the Ironborn? Possibly, but I think not.  

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How was he to keep the North during winter?

Even Tywin thought that come winter the Ironborn wasn't going to make it and they weren't.
 

 

No, he didn't.

 

"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?"

 

He thought they'd be hated, not that they would not survive the winter and when Tyrion went North his his Stark wife and son after Winter they would be backed over the Greyjoys.