Are Cersei and Jaime the children of Aerys?

[Dofs]

I don't know if we're ever going to get any definitive answer about who Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion's father truly was, but can we at least agree that George clearly wants the readers to have doubts?

I don't think a casual reader would notice all the "clues" that Lannisters might be Targaryens. It's certainly not on the surface. R+L=J is much more apparent to the point of being basically a fact yet GRRM didn't plan on the reader to catch that yet.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

No, I mean there is a reason why it's unlikely for siblings to have sexual attraction for each other. Look up 'Westermarck effect'.

 

I did,  It's a hypothesis.

 

The reason that brothers and sisters don't copulate is learned, not inherent.

[Patchfaces O'Houlihan]

I like the theory of Jaime & Cersei being Targs.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Hopefully none of Tywin's children are secretly Aerys'. Secret Targaryen theories are wearing really thin on me. 

[Doorlocks]

The number of other Targaryen theories only shows that GRRM is laying hints about it all over the place.  More than hints, even.  The entire series he has undermined the original claim that Dany and Viserys were the last Targaryens.  First we find out about Aemon, then the hints about Jon, then the three-eyed Crow was technically a Targaryen, and then Aegon.  More than that, if we include families who married Targaryens (Baratheons, Martells, Arryns, Tarths, etc.)  Everybody in the South is partially a Targaryen, basically.

 

Throw in the rumors about Aerys and Joanna... imagine how the tone of the entire series changes if we find out that the Targaryens never really disappeared, they were sitting on the throne one way or another (Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen) the whole time.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

The number of other Targaryen theories only shows that GRRM is laying hints about it all over the place.  More than hints, even.  The entire series he has undermined the original claim that Dany and Viserys were the last Targaryens.  First we find out about Aemon, then the hints about Jon, then the three-eyed Crow was technically a Targaryen, and then Aegon.  More than that, if we include families who married Targaryens (Baratheons, Martells, Arryns, Tarths, etc.)  Everybody in the South is partially a Targaryen, basically.

Very true. I just feel that with Aemon, Jon, Aegon etc. having the Lannister siblings as secret targs as well just seems a bit too much to me. They'll be no-one in westeros who isn't a targ at this rate. But I trust GRRM to make anything work, and if that's the direction he's taking the book in, then I'm sure it'll be great all the same.

[The Third Eye]

I did start  a thread with almost an identical name in late 2013 or early 2014. After rereading some chapters now, I felt like digging it up one more time, but then I  found this one, which is more recent so the "crime" of digging it up shouln't be as severe. Here is an excerpt from an early draft of my topic posting (might have undergone some changes before I posted it, but it'll suffice in this state):

-------------------------------------

My theory:

While Tyrion is the only legitimate son of Tywin Lannister, his older siblings are bastards of Aerys (the Mad King) and Tywin's wife (forgot her name)

Why I think this?

- Joffry is often described as a second Aerys. Maybe because he is his grandson

- One of Tywin's reasons to join Robert's rebellion was Aerys fancying Tywins wife

- There is that one scene in the River Lands (Book 4 or 5) where Jamie talks to that old Lannister Lady and she tells him that he wasn't Tywin's son but Tyrion on the other hand was. Maybe she meant it literally?

edit: Here is the scene:Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

- Jaime's and Cersei's incestuos relationship and desires could be something they inherited from "their father"

- This would give a strange symmetry to the story. Jaime would not only be a Kingslayer but also a Kin slayer - like his half brother Tyrion.

-------------------------------------

Now here is why I dug up this - not as old, yet anything but recent - thread:

I get it. I'm neither the first nor last person who came up with this theory. So calling it "my theory" was wrong. This, however is my theory on what the meaning:
Jaime and Cersei being Aeryse's bastards doesn't make 'em heads of any prophetic dragon. It doesn't even make them Targaryens it makes them bastards. A common sport among readers is to try to find out, who the "dragonriders" in the endgame will be, treating this "endgame", a big battle between "Ice" and "Fire" as a cannonic fact.  Yet this endgame isn't a fact yet. What if one of the dragons died before ever ridden?

I think that - given it was true - the fact of Cersei and Jaime being bastards of the Mad King does not make them MORE than they are, but LESS. My own theory is that at one point, King Tommen will free Jaime from his duties (after all, he has no sword hand) and that the question on who's the rightful heir of house Lannister might come up.

I think Barristan Selmy might be the one who could know about the twins parentage. And now, Tyrion AND Selmy are both in Mereen. (I know that some GOT viewers might complain now for reasons not to be discussed here, but this board is about the books only. If you want my opinion on how the show might deal with this issue, send me a PN or open a new thread in the GOT section)

[Amris]

There have been several threads about this subject. But lets do it over again:

Only George knows whether Tyrion is a Targ or Jaime and Cersei are or all three are or all three really are true Lannisters. All possibilities are still open IMO.

The world book is not conclusive either. There seems to definitely have been an affair between Joanna and Aerys while Joanna was still one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting at court - but whether that affair continued later after Joanna's marriage is unknown and doubtful. According to the world book Joanna was back at Casterly Rock (usually) and Aerys in KL (usually) after the marriage between Tywin and Joanna - but it is not explicitly stated that Joanna and/or Aerys never travelled and never met again. In fact it would be strange if they never did. So it is not at all inconceivable that they met somewhere at the 'right' time. On the other hand if they did then we do not know about it.

That being said I think it would be enormously ironic and poetic if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' and Tyrion was Tywin's.

Especially considering

- Tywin's preference of Jaime over Tyrion

- Tyrion's cleverness which always reminds me of the Lann the Clever legend

- the 'the gods flip a coin whenever a Targaryen is born' - sentence. When we are being shown that Cersei gets madder and madder while Jaime seems mentally stable

- the twincest

- Cersei's fascination with burning things to the ground

- Jaime's 'there is no one like me - just me' over the top confidence which seems inexplicable even to himself. Almost as if he finds himself to be a riddle.

- Cersei's strange affinity to the throne. It would be so ironic if she - all unbeknownst -  actually had some kind of title to it.

- Tyrion killing his father, Jaime killing his father

- Jaime's aunt telling him that Tyrion is Tywin's son - not he.

- Robert - thinking he dethroned the dynasty - unknowingly reinstating the dynasty immediately by taking a half-Targ as wife

- Joffrey behaving like the poster-boy of a mad king

EDIT: - the Valyrian word 'valonqar' used in Maggy the Frog's prophecy when the rest of the prophecy seemingly was given in the Common language of Westeros.

 

None of that is what one might consider real evidence. But it would fit.

[purple-eyes]

14 minutes ago, Amris said:

There have been several threads about this subject. But lets do it over again:

Only George knows whether Tyrion is a Targ or Jaime and Cersei are or all three are or all three really are true Lannisters. All possibilities are still open IMO.

The world book is not conclusive either. There seems to definitely have been an affair between Joanna and Aerys while Joanna was still one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting at court - but whether that affair continued later after Joanna's marriage is unknown and doubtful. According to the world book Joanna was back at Casterly Rock (usually) and Aerys in KL (usually) after the marriage between Tywin and Joanna - but it is not explicitly stated that Joanna and/or Aerys never travelled and never met again. In fact it would be strange if they never did. So it is not at all inconceivable that they met somewhere at the 'right' time. On the other hand if they did then we do not know about it.

That being said I think it would be enormously ironic and poetic if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' and Tyrion was Tywin's.

Especially considering

- Tywin's preference of Jaime over Tyrion

- Tyrion's cleverness which always reminds me of the Lann the Clever legend

- the 'the gods flip a coin whenever a Targaryen is born' - sentence. When we are being shown that Cersei gets madder and madder while Jaime seems mentally stable

- the twincest

- Cersei's fascination with burning things to the ground

- Jaime's 'there is no one like me - just me' over the top confidence which seems inexplicable even to himself. Almost as if he finds himself to be a riddle.

- Cersei's strange affinity to the throne. It would be so ironic if she - all unbeknownst -  actually had some kind of title to it.

- Tyrion killing his father, Jaime killing his father

- Jaime's aunt telling him that Tyrion is Tywin's son - not he.

- Robert - thinking he dethroned the dynasty - unknowingly reinstating the dynasty immediately by taking a half-Targ as wife

- Joffrey behaving like the poster-boy of a mad king

 

None of that is what one might consider real evidence. But it would fit.

Yes, joffery is called aerys Iii. He may have half blood of aerys. 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Amris said:

Only George knows whether Tyrion is a Targ or Jaime and Cersei are or all three are or all three really are true Lannisters. All possibilities are still open IMO

Sometimes I think not even GRRM 'knows' for sure. He sets up all these parallel storylines, stacking alternative possibilities with 'evidence,' so that several outcomes could be equally plausibly twisted into shape, in the future. Maybe it's like an election. You're pretty sure which candidate you're leaning towards voting for, and you've got arguments for and against. But, then again, you haven't quite ruled out the other candidate/s, and, after careful consideration, they've also got some pros vs. cons going for them-- so you might actually end up voting for someone else in the last minute.

A while ago, while browsing the forum, I came across the following excellent quote, which perfectly encapsulates how I believe GRRM operates:

Quote

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 3:45 PM, The scourge of westeros said:

We give George too much credit with foreshadowing, when he's really the king of sideshadowing:

Sideshadowing suggests not what happened or what will happen, but what else might happen/have happened in a story. Sideshadowing techniques include:

Unanswered questions
Loose ends
Half-told stories
Digressions
Historical backdrops vaguely referenced
Unexposed backstory

Sideshadowing is sort of an argument against inevitability, if you will. Where foreshadowing and linear "ideal" stories close off narratives step-by-step, sideshadowing opens up a narrative moment-by-moment, offering the reader the idea of more than a single possible outcome.

 

 

So, to the issue of the twins, where there's certainly a lot of 'sideshadowing' regarding their paternity. Either one and/or both could have a Targaryen parent (it's rare, but not impossible biologically for non-identical (fraternal, dizygotic) twins to have derived from eggs fertilized by sperm from two separate fathers). So, maybe Joanna was a busy woman, shuttling between Tywin and Aerys, out of sight of the historians!

3 hours ago, Amris said:

The world book is not conclusive either. There seems to definitely have been an affair between Joanna and Aerys while Joanna was still one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting at court - but whether that affair continued later after Joanna's marriage is unknown and doubtful. According to the world book Joanna was back at Casterly Rock (usually) and Aerys in KL (usually) after the marriage between Tywin and Joanna - but it is not explicitly stated that Joanna and/or Aerys never travelled and never met again. In fact it would be strange if they never did. So it is not at all inconceivable that they met somewhere at the 'right' time. On the other hand if they did then we do not know about it.

That being said I think it would be enormously ironic and poetic if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' and Tyrion was Tywin's.

GRRM is just playing with the fans, taking advantage of their absolute trust in 'the world book.' I like your argument, which I've highlighted in 'bold.' According to the premise of the scientific method, one does not prove that something is 'true'; one can only state that something has not been proved to be false, yet. And GRRM is anything but explicit about ruling things out; that's not his style. He's a sideshadower and sidestepper of note!

Agree with your citing of the poetic irony and the 'weird symmetry.' But those are matters of aesthetic sensibility. Others might present arguments favoring opposite ironies and symmetries. Just as with leaning towards a particular political candidate, there is always an unconscious, emotional element involved in the choice, which informs a large degree of confirmation bias. I don't believe anyone who says that his argument is 'right' because he is less emotional, hence more rational, than another.

3 hours ago, Amris said:

'the gods flip a coin whenever a Targaryen is born'

The coin-flip metaphor is also a good one for twins, who are, after all, two sides of the same coin-- same, but different. It got me thinking: of Jaime and Cersei, who is 'the head' and who 'the tail'..?! It conjures up the image of a dragon for me, with a literal head and tail. It's fun that 'a dragon' can also be a type of coin! The way the twins came into the world was in a head-to-tail way, with Jaime following Cersei, holding on to her foot. I know there are many alternative valid theories, but for me that image strongly suggests that Jaime is the 'valonqar.'

The reason a High Valyrian word is used is either that only the younger twin has Valyrian blood, and that this heritage distinguishes him from her, or alternatively that both of them have that blood. Specifying that someone is the younger brother happens to be particularly important in the case of twins. With twins, distinguishing one from the other becomes very important to the people around them, from the day they are born. Even today, when twins are born, the first method that is used to distinguish them in the hospital is to identify the twin that was born first, named 'Twin A'; the younger twin is named 'Twin B.' Because she's technically the elder, that's one reason Cersei smarts under any suggestion that she is lesser than Jaime, just because she is female. I think she brings up her superiority as the elder twin on a number of occasions.

So, I would say Cersei considers herself 'the head' in the relationship, and Jaime, the younger, must 'tail'/tag along behind her (just as they were born), following her lead. Since then, however, we've seen how the trajectory of their arcs, though mirroring each other, are going in opposite directions. Jaime has cut the connection between him and Cersei. This literally occurred when his hand was cut off. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the same hand which used to be attached to Cersei's foot at birth! Jaime has not been liberated from the metaphorical coin-- his identity and his fate will always be intimately connected with his twin-- but I believe the coin has flipped! Now Jaime is the head; Cersei the tail. Jaime is increasingly coming into his own, using his head (because he lost his sword hand, distanced himself from Cersei's domineering, and met Brienne, his female alter-ego), while no-one would deny that Cersei is using her 'tail' more than her head, recklessly thrashing about and lashing out, without giving the consequences much thought-- and her power is waning. A dragon without a head cannot be controlled, and ultimately loses power. And, that reminds me, 'the dragon has three heads'...Wonder why no-one talks about the tails...

 

3 hours ago, Amris said:

Jaime's 'there is no one like me - just me' over the top confidence which seems inexplicable even to himself. Almost as if he finds himself to be a riddle

What a great observation! Well, on the prosaic surface of it, every twin must struggle with issues of identity, and the task of differentiating himself from his twin. But, maybe it goes deeper. Maybe Jon Snow isn't the only one who 'knows nothing'..! Maybe 'the riddler is the riddle.' It reminded me of that passage when Jaime goes down into the secret recesses of the Red Keep and the dungeons, looking for Varys and/or Tyrion, after Tywin's murder:

Quote

He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him.

Jaime wondered where Varys was hiding. Wisely, the master of whisperers had not returned to his own chambers, nor had a search of the Red Keep turned him up. It might be that the eunuch had taken ship with Tyrion, rather than remain to answer awkward questions. If so, the two of them were well out to sea by now, sharing a flagon of Arbor gold in the cabin of a galley.

Unless my brother murdered Varys too, and left his corpse to rot beneath the castle. Down there, it might be years before his bones were found. Jaime had led a dozen guards below, with torches and ropes and lanterns. For hours they had groped through twisting passages, narrow crawl spaces, hidden doors, secret steps, and shafts that plunged down into utter blackness. Seldom had he felt so utterly a cripple. A man takes much for granted when he has two hands. Ladders, for an instance. Even crawling did not come easy; not for nought do they speak of hands and knees. Nor could he hold a torch and climb, as others could.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone

Jaime descends beneath the Red Keep, which we've been repeatedly told is full of 'secrets' and surprises, looking for the answer to one kinslaying (Tywin's), searching for those responsible, searching for the kinslayer. And what does he find? Dragons. So, we're re-directed towards thinking of another episode of kinslaying-- sorry, I meant 'King-slaying'!-- one in which Jaime was implicated.

Jaime's at that spot 'where half a dozen tunnels meet'; that's a visual representation of the nexus where the fates of the characters intersect; and where so many fateful decisions are made (Tyrion also stopped at the mosaic landmark beneath the Tower of the Hand, before going up to kill his father and Shae).

So, Jaime has posed a question, and the dragon (quite sphinxlike) answers, in the form of a riddle: "I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me." That one line is so ambiguous (and leaves GRRM's options open, depending how you're willing to interpret it). On the one hand, it could be Jaime being confronted by his guilty conscience about killing Aerys, and opening the gates to Tywin, which culminated in the murder of Rhaegar's children by the Lannisters. And, it would be natural for thoughts of Kingslaying to be on his mind, since Tywin's just been assassinated, and he was a kind of king, maybe not in name, but de facto ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.

The deeper, more enigmatic meaning, however, and the way I prefer reading it, is that the reason the dragon 'knows' him and 'has been waiting for him to come' is that the dragon knows something about Jaime that Jaime does not. This secret knowledge might be that Jaime is a dragon too. He could even be one of the three heads. ('A man takes much for granted when he has two hands'...his Lannister identity, perhaps..?) It's also interesting that Jaime, who was looking for a kinslayer, his brother, may have found instead another brother-- Rhaegar-- who addresses him.

This interpretation casts the first line of the passage in a fresh, ironic light. 'He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him.' From a certain perspective, this has already happened to Jaime, in another context. Aerys 'said he meant to kill' Tywin and the populace of King's Landing, so what did Jaime do.. 'I would have stopped him.' Jaime stopped Aerys by first killing the pyromancer, then killing Aerys. If Aerys is Jaime's father (Oedipal tragedy), 'Then I would be the kinslayer.'

One more thing, maybe coincidental, the orange glow in the dragon's mouth would match Viserion's color-coded flame. Some think Jaime, not Tyrion, will ride the white and gold dragon-- Jaime's colors!

[Dofs]

3 hours ago, Amris said:

That being said I think it would be enormously ironic and poetic if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' and Tyrion was Tywin's.

Always found this reasoning weird. So you want to introduce a huge plot twist for the sake of ... irony? Not for character development (because there would be none), not for plot reasons (again, there would be none) but simply because some readers will find it amusing? I find it a very weak reason. 

Also, regarding this irony thing - it already exists. Tywin pinning all of his hopes to his beautiful twins who had ruined everything he had done while neglecting his son who could continue his legacy and preserve everything that he had built is huge irony itself, which actually matters because it shows Tywin's stubbornness, short-sightedness and shallowness. Adding that his beautiful kids that ruined Tywin's legacy are not even his kids undermines this dynamic. So his two failure kids are not even his? What kind of irony is that?

4 hours ago, Amris said:

- Robert - thinking he dethroned the dynasty - unknowingly reinstating the dynasty immediately by taking a half-Targ as wife

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. If by taking a half-Targ wife means you are reinstating a Targ dynasty, then Robert had already done it by becoming the king himself.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Always found this reasoning weird. So you want to introduce a huge plot twist for the sake of ... irony? Not for character development (because there would be none), not for plot reasons (again, there would be none) but simply because some readers will find it amusing? I find it a very weak reason. 

If you don't like 'irony,' you probably should stay away from GRRM! He revels in ironic twists, not necessarily to amuse us, his readers, but principally to amuse himself! Also, irony is not necessarily funny. Sure, it can make one laugh, but it can also make one cry. For example, the classic case of dramatic irony in the Greek tragic tradition, the quintessential case of the Oedipal myth, in which Oedipus (because he's unaware of his own identity, his real identity) unwittingly sleeps with his mother, and ends up killing his father. Afterwards, when all is disclosed, and he realizes the full import of what he's done, he puts out his eyes, intentionally blinding himself, so that he doesn't have to look at (the glaring irony of) what he's done. Not very funny stuff-- but definitely ironic. The whole saga of ice and fire is one big nest of ironies; ice and fire, bittersweet, secret identities which play out in unexpected ways...However, I'm not against anyone picking out the ironies they prefer (Seven Hells! There are enough ironies-- plural-- to go round...; I don't think there's only one absolute answer; you can read my previous post, for more on my take on this).

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Adding that his beautiful kids that ruined Tywin's legacy are not even his kids undermines this dynamic. So his two failure kids are not even his? What kind of irony is that?

'Undermining' one dynamic, only underlines another. The irony is that Tywin may have sabotaged his only biological child, the son most like him, the son who inherited his best and worst talents, his only son and heir, after harping his entire life about the Lannister legacy-- i.e. which may, ironically, be personified in one person, Tyrion! By investing all his energy in 'his two failure kids' (who may actually be the biological offspring of his greatest rival and enemy, Aerys), he may unwittingly have furthered the interests of the Targaryens, instead of the Lannisters. There is plenty of irony. On the other hand, if Tyrion is Aerys's son, that has its own ironies. GRRM is hedging his bets.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. If by taking a half-Targ wife means you are reinstating a Targ dynasty, then Robert had already done it by becoming the king himself.

Robert was still a Baratheon, not a Targaryen. But, as you and others have pointed out, there's still a lot of Targaryen blood hanging about in the 7 Kingdoms in various dilutions, if you care to go looking for it. What's meant by 'reinstating a Targ dynasty', is Robert unwittingly paving the way towards putting someone else's kids on the throne (Joffrey, Tommen), super-concentrated Targaryean progeny, if both Cersei and Jaime are Targs, after he'd ironically spent his life on the warpath, with an aim towards eradicating all Targaryen babes (Rhaenys, Aegon, Dany) that might threaten his reign. He's sending spies and hitmen across the narrow sea on this mission, while the Targaryean descendants are actually sitting under his nose. Again, ironic.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I've never believed that any of them are anything other than Tywin and Joanna's children. Maybe I'm being perverse, but I don't take it as a given that Tyrion will ride a dragon, and even if he does, that does not (in my mind) prove Targ blood.  

It's certainly not a requirement in Dany's mind; she believes she's supposed to have two husbands and/or paramours to complete the three. There's an exasperated moment when she wonders if she should just marry both Jorah and Daario and call it good. 

It's always seemed to me that part of the reason people believe in A+J=T is because he's deformed and a dwarf. Why? Because the child of a rape or affair has to be marked in some manner? Or because Aerys is mad and cruel, his son would be born looking evil to people? Wasn't true for Rhaegar, Viserys or Daenerys. 

Tyrion may indeed be one of the three heads, but I believe the dragons are going to decide for themselves who should be allowed on their backs, and who tastes good with ketchup. 

[ravenous reader]

56 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

I believe the dragons are going to decide for themselves who should be allowed on their backs, and who tastes good with ketchup. 

Most people on this forum would disagree with you, citing the many hints that dragons only respond favorably to those carrying a bit of Targaryean/Valyrian blood. However, there is this interesting passage to consider, in light of your belief:

Quote

Quote

Her dragons were hungry, so she chopped up a snake and charred the pieces over a brazier. They are growing, she realized as she watched them snap and squabble over the blackened flesh. They must weigh twice what they had in Vaes Tolorro. Even so, it would be years before they were large enough to take to war. And they must be trained as well, or they will lay my kingdom waste. For all her Targaryen blood, Dany had not the least idea of how to train a dragon.

 

What's interesting here is that although Dany is emotionally connected to her dragons, and they to her, and she's a responsive and responsible mother, who understands how to feed them, she has no idea how to control them. That last line (I've bolded) leaves open the possibility that someone without Targaryean blood may be able to acquire the requisite dragon-training skills. And, if one can train a dragon, surely one can ride one, or control the dragon in another way (?warging, or other). In response, one might argue that when Dany intuitively climbed on Drogon's back and flew away, she had somehow acquired these skills. Granted, Drogon did not reject her, but she could hardly be said to have been in control of the flight, based on how he set his own GPS, dumped her in the Dothraki Sea, and refused to budge. Doesn't exactly qualify as 'training.'  

The dragons are powerful weapons, so surely, somewhere, there must be some secret knowledge of how one might counter such a potentially destructive force (in a book, or via magic practices, dragonbinders..? I'm open to suggestion). The pursuit of these kinds of anti-dragon counter strategies is likely to have been undertaken by non-Targaryeans (and, in turn, suppressed by Targaryeans), as non-Targaryens were more likely to end up as the victims of said weapons. Could this knowledge resurface? And who will harness it?

[SerTonyStark]

Agree wholeheartedly with this theory, Jaime and Cersei's incest is a bit of a tip off alluding to the Targ's. Additionally neither has a very Tywin disposition really. They're both kind of egotistical hot heads.

Tyrion is Tywin's true son as Tywin's sister tells Jaime. This also explains so much of Tywin's character, he has one son and he's a dwarf and his wife dies in childbirth.

This seems to me the closest thing to an explanation for why Tywin is with Shae.

He seeks out prostitutes because he knows his offspring will resemble Tyrion.

[Scorpion92]

Yes, they are. In fact, in my opinion, three heads of the dragon are Dany, Jon and Jaime. And each of them represent three main families of this story: Targaryen, Stark and Lannister. 

Lannister-Stark conflict is bound to come back in circle in this series, and I think both Bran and Jon will have a confrontation with Jaime towards the end of the books (while Sansa and Arya will have their confrontation with Cersei). And I am not sure people will cheer for Stark boys by that time.

It is a huge speculation area, but I think Jaime will become Viserion's dragonrider (cream and gold dragon representing Kingsguard colors) and fight Bran-skinchanged Rhaegal (green and bronze dragon representing Children of the Forest) in the Battle of the Dawn. I think both dragons are bound to die, and eventually when Jaime tries to confront Bran and finish the monster he created in AGoT, Jon will intervene and have some epic sword duel with Kingslayer: black cloak vs white cloak, Lannister vs Stark, Targaryen bastard raised as trueborn vs Targaryen trueborn raised as bastard, etc. Eventually though, neither Jon nor Jaime will kill each other, as I think the Battle will be decided when Jon proves his Targaryen heirtage by mounting Drogon.

The whole Kingslayer business needs to be resolved between Dany and Jaime. No one can confront him about it except the last Targaryen (Aegon is Blackfyre and Jon is Stark).This will be a very important story moment for Tyrion as well.

Also the whole Stark-Targaryen saga will be resolved with Jon and Dany, no comments there.

You might argue that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, but the quote about him snarling among dragons gives me more reason that he is Tywin's only true kid. Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Dany) and false (Aegon), bright (Jaime) and dark (Cersei). I also think he will never get Casterly Rock, but rather sack it in the dance of the dragons between Aegon and Dany when he comes to take it away from Varys-installed Tyrek Lannister, Aegon's new Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.

So yeah, three heads are Jon, Dany and Jaime for me.

[The Third Eye]

On 4.2.2016 at 3:54 PM, Amris said:

There have been several threads about this subject. But lets do it over again:

Only George knows whether Tyrion is a Targ or Jaime and Cersei are or all three are or all three really are true Lannisters. All possibilities are still open IMO.

The world book is not conclusive either. There seems to definitely have been an affair between Joanna and Aerys while Joanna was still one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting at court - but whether that affair continued later after Joanna's marriage is unknown and doubtful. According to the world book Joanna was back at Casterly Rock (usually) and Aerys in KL (usually) after the marriage between Tywin and Joanna - but it is not explicitly stated that Joanna and/or Aerys never travelled and never met again. In fact it would be strange if they never did. So it is not at all inconceivable that they met somewhere at the 'right' time. On the other hand if they did then we do not know about it.

That being said I think it would be enormously ironic and poetic if Jaime and Cersei were Aerys' and Tyrion was Tywin's.

Especially considering

- Tywin's preference of Jaime over Tyrion

- Tyrion's cleverness which always reminds me of the Lann the Clever legend

- the 'the gods flip a coin whenever a Targaryen is born' - sentence. When we are being shown that Cersei gets madder and madder while Jaime seems mentally stable

- the twincest

- Cersei's fascination with burning things to the ground

- Jaime's 'there is no one like me - just me' over the top confidence which seems inexplicable even to himself. Almost as if he finds himself to be a riddle.

- Cersei's strange affinity to the throne. It would be so ironic if she - all unbeknownst -  actually had some kind of title to it.

- Tyrion killing his father, Jaime killing his father

- Jaime's aunt telling him that Tyrion is Tywin's son - not he.

- Robert - thinking he dethroned the dynasty - unknowingly reinstating the dynasty immediately by taking a half-Targ as wife

- Joffrey behaving like the poster-boy of a mad king

 

None of that is what one might consider real evidence. But it would fit.

Excelent post, BUT. If Jamie and Cersei were children of Aerys they'd be bastards, not Targaryans, which wouldn't strenghten but weaken Cerseis claim to the trone....

[The Third Eye]

On 4.2.2016 at 7:56 PM, Dofs said:

Always found this reasoning weird. So you want to introduce a huge plot twist for the sake of ... irony? Not for character development (because there would be none), not for plot reasons (again, there would be none) but simply because some readers will find it amusing? I find it a very weak reason. 

Also, regarding this irony thing - it already exists. Tywin pinning all of his hopes to his beautiful twins who had ruined everything he had done while neglecting his son who could continue his legacy and preserve everything that he had built is huge irony itself, which actually matters because it shows Tywin's stubbornness, short-sightedness and shallowness. Adding that his beautiful kids that ruined Tywin's legacy are not even his kids undermines this dynamic. So his two failure kids are not even his? What kind of irony is that?

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. If by taking a half-Targ wife means you are reinstating a Targ dynasty, then Robert had already done it by becoming the king himself.

About plot twists for the sake of irony. A story is written to entertain people. Irony is something, a lot of peole find entertaining. Thus, plot twists for the sake of irony are very common. e.g. Isn't it ironic than - in Hamlet - doing nothing eventually does the most (damage)?

About reinstating the dynasty: If Cersei was the daughter of Aerys and Joana, she would not be a Targaryan. She'd be his natural daughter. Not more, no less.

[The Third Eye]

On 5.2.2016 at 1:31 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Yes, they are. In fact, in my opinion, three heads of the dragon are Dany, Jon and Jaime. And each of them represent three main families of this story: Targaryen, Stark and Lannister. 

Lannister-Stark conflict is bound to come back in circle in this series, and I think both Bran and Jon will have a confrontation with Jaime towards the end of the books (while Sansa and Arya will have their confrontation with Cersei). And I am not sure people will cheer for Stark boys by that time.

It is a huge speculation area, but I think Jaime will become Viserion's dragonrider (cream and gold dragon representing Kingsguard colors) and fight Bran-skinchanged Rhaegal (green and bronze dragon representing Children of the Forest) in the Battle of the Dawn. I think both dragons are bound to die, and eventually when Jaime tries to confront Bran and finish the monster he created in AGoT, Jon will intervene and have some epic sword duel with Kingslayer: black cloak vs white cloak, Lannister vs Stark, Targaryen bastard raised as trueborn vs Targaryen trueborn raised as bastard, etc. Eventually though, neither Jon nor Jaime will kill each other, as I think the Battle will be decided when Jon proves his Targaryen heirtage by mounting Drogon.

The whole Kingslayer business needs to be resolved between Dany and Jaime. No one can confront him about it except the last Targaryen (Aegon is Blackfyre and Jon is Stark).This will be a very important story moment for Tyrion as well.

Also the whole Stark-Targaryen saga will be resolved with Jon and Dany, no comments there.

You might argue that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, but the quote about him snarling among dragons gives me more reason that he is Tywin's only true kid. Dragons old (Aemon) and young (Jon), true (Dany) and false (Aegon), bright (Jaime) and dark (Cersei). I also think he will never get Casterly Rock, but rather sack it in the dance of the dragons between Aegon and Dany when he comes to take it away from Varys-installed Tyrek Lannister, Aegon's new Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.

So yeah, three heads are Jon, Dany and Jaime for me.

Sorry, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but this is not a theory. It's a fan ficiton fantasy:

Of course one might say that about my last posting but at least I was speculating about the meaning of the given content. In order to even understand your theory as presented, one has to accept theories based upon theories based upon theories as proven facts.

It's not even clear that we'll ever find out if the three dragon heads are people and if so, who they are. You say that the Lannister-Stark conflict is bound to come back and that Cersei will have a conflicht with Sansa and Arya. But the Stark girls may as well die miles away from Cersei and never meet her - or Cersei could die (it was at least hinted that we will see her death by the Valonqur Prophecy)

It's also not even a fact yet that any other dragon but Drogon will ever be ridden - what if the other two die in the battle of Mereen? I don't say that I believe this. But these are all things you have to consider.

Up to this point one could call your posting speculative, but...

 

Then you give details about an intervention on somebody's behalf in a battle you made up? Sorry but you're very deep inside the realm of fan fiction here. Who says that there will be a "Battle of Dawn"? Who says that mounting any dragon will prove any heritage?? (In old Valyria, a lot of people rode dragons). Who says Jaime will ever be able to fight again? You're giving far too many details based on asumotions that are based on asumptions....

I envy you for your fantasy... but to my mind, this is far beyond "speculating".

 

 

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, The Third Eye said:

Sorry, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but this is not a theory. It's a fan ficiton fantasy:

Of course one might say that about my last posting but at least I was speculating about the meaning of the given content. In order to even understand your theory as presented, one has to accept theories based upon theories based upon theories as proven facts.

It's not even clear that we'll ever find out if the three dragon heads are people and if so, who they are. You say that the Lannister-Stark conflict is bound to come back and that Cersei will have a conflicht with Sansa and Arya. But the Stark girls may as well die miles away from Cersei and never meet her - or Cersei could die (it was at least hinted that we will see her death by the Valonqur Prophecy)

It's also not even a fact yet that any other dragon but Drogon will ever be ridden - what if the other two die in the battle of Mereen? I don't say that I believe this. But these are all things you have to consider.

Up to this point one could call your posting speculative, but...

 

Then you give details about an intervention on somebody's behalf in a battle you made up? Sorry but you're very deep inside the realm of fan fiction here. Who says that there will be a "Battle of Dawn"? Who says that mounting any dragon will prove any heritage?? (In old Valyria, a lot of people rode dragons). Who says Jaime will ever be able to fight again? You're giving far too many details based on asumotions that are based on asumptions....

I envy you for your fantasy... but to my mind, this is far beyond "speculating".

 

 

Regarding Cersei and Stark girls, I believe that Cersei and Jaime will die killing each other which is foreshadowed in so many places in the books. One of the reasons Jaime will stop Cersei due to his vow of protecting Stark girls, which is central oath and story around him and Brienne, and it will result in the death of Kingslayer.

I can go into 10 page essay on how this will happen based on the text and some Hedge Knight stories (I just don't have time to write one now, too much stuff going on), but basically I believe Sansa will be back in King's Landing and stay accused of Joffrey's murder (she fled the city before she could be confronted), but by that time Sansa will not be a meek and weak girl, she will stand against Cersei and demand a trial by combat.

I believe that whenever Cersei hears of Dany and Tyrion landing in Westeros, she will accept them as "more beautiful queen" and "valongar", and the audience will be lead to believe so. But there is no one in this story who makes sense to become Cersei's end other than Jaime and Sansa, and thr mad queen will realize it in her last moments.

And this is where my ultimate theory comes in place: there will be a Trial by Seven combat for Joffrey's murder. And the participants of this event are foreshadowed in the only two other known Trials by Seven - Maegor's trial with Faith, where he is the sole survivor which I believe will happen here too, there will be only one survivor.

And the participants of this trial are heavily foreshadowed by Tourney of Ashford's Trial by Seven. Again, not going into much detail because it is a long essay I need to write and convince people about, but Sansa's champions will be Sandor, Jaime, Brienne, Podrick, Bronn, Loras and Arya (who snuck into King's Landing to finish her list and rescue Sansa). Cersei's champions will be UnGregor, Ilyn Payne, Boros Blount, Meryn Trant and three Kettleblack brothers.

And there is a foreshadowing of Jaime slaying 5 of his Kingsguard brothers by himself, which I believe are Kettleblack brothers, Meryn Trant and Boros Blount in this scenario. And also this is where the anicipated Cleganebowl will happen. Plus, if you take into account Bran's vision of two shadows over Stark girls (Sandor and Jaime) standing over protective from the third one (UnGregor), this is where this vision will take place.

Arya will be the only survivor of this folly and escape the burning by wildfire King's Landing with her sister, presumably on Sandor's black horse, Stranger.

George already told us that the history repeats itself, and that there was a huge battle between White Walkers and humans thousands of years ago where humans prevailed (at least what we are lead to believe, which is very debatable), so it will be very unsatisfying for us as readers to NOT see some huge battle between "ice" and "fire", especially given the fact how both White Walkers and dragons have been hyped up as some weapons of mass destruction since the first book. That will be just poor story telling and I believe George is better than that.

Of course, what I speculate might sound fanfictionish, and I don't have any textual support for this, but I 100% believe that the thing that started all this mess - Jaime pushing Bran from the tower - is bound to come full circle and come to some resolution. Whatever Bran is becoming, it is not good, especially with the sneaky Bloodraven as mentor and blood magic involved and Bran's growing fondness for the taste of blood either through Summer or weirwoods. Jaime should finish the monster he has created. You might disagree, but that is just my personal opinion. The same about Jon and Jaime fighting. If Jon is truly Rhaegar's son and we know Jaime swore to keep Rhaegar's kids safe, then this should come in some circle as well. 

Anyways, I really need to write that essay about Trial by Seven, I have been meaning to do it for some quite time.