Are Cersei and Jaime the children of Aerys?

[Amris]

Thank you, Scorpion92 and The Third Eye for reminding me of the valonqar-prophecy. I had forgotten that in my above post about the things that would fit the Cersei and Jaime as Aerys' kids theory. I have edited the post now and added the valonqar part.

(The point being: Why would Maggy the Frog who apparently had given the rest of her prophecy to Cersei in the Common Language suddenly change to Valyrian and use valonqar instead of little brother? GRRM does not pull such a switch of language out of his hat. It means something. If either Cersei herself or the 'little bro' that kills Cersei or both were of Valyrian ancestry then it would fit.)

 

[bemused]

I've been quite on board with this theory for some time and I like it best when it extends to Tyrion. The idea of Tywin shooting blanks just tickles my fancy, somehow. I find it very appealing. 

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

17 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I can go into 10 page essay on how this will happen based on the text and some Hedge Knight stories (I just don't have time to write one now, too much stuff going on), but basically I believe Sansa will be back in King's Landing and stay accused of Joffrey's murder (she fled the city before she could be confronted), but by that time Sansa will not be a meek and weak girl, she will stand against Cersei and demand a trial by combat.

This may be a little OT, but I highly doubt that Sansa will ever face a trial for the murder of Joffrey. Aegon is in the Stormlands gaining strength & support. It won't take him long to make it to Kings Landing. The Lannisters are in disarray & are extremely weakened with Tywin & Kevan being dead. If/when Aegon takes the throne, no one will care about holding anyone accountable for Joffrey's murder, especially not King Aegon.

This is purely speculation on my part but based on where we are in the books & the leaked chapters from Winds, I find it much more likely that Aegon will make it to Kings Landing before Sansa/Alayne is identified, located, extracted from the Vale, & returned to Kings Landing to face a trial. Just my 2 coppers...

 

[Daenerys Flint]

Hi just to weigh in with my pennies worth - i think Tywin was infertile. Like Margery was de-flowered from horse riding its possible Tywin coukd have been made infertile as well from his years on horseback or was possibly just infertile anyway. In this world its not possible to do DNA testing but Tywin is clearly hung up on finding proof for Tyrion not being his. This could explain his whoring a- because he cant get the whores pregnant and b- because the more he tries and fails the more proof he has of his infertility. There is mention of Aerys takng liberties with the wedding bedding (Jamie / Cersei) and then later (WOIAF) he was mentioned as being in Kings Landing when Joanna was also there (Tyrion). The timelines are not easy to pin down but thats my gut feel. 

[Scorpion92]

5 hours ago, Bellenora Black Pearl said:

This may be a little OT, but I highly doubt that Sansa will ever face a trial for the murder of Joffrey. Aegon is in the Stormlands gaining strength & support. It won't take him long to make it to Kings Landing. The Lannisters are in disarray & are extremely weakened with Tywin & Kevan being dead. If/when Aegon takes the throne, no one will care about holding anyone accountable for Joffrey's murder, especially not King Aegon.

This is purely speculation on my part but based on where we are in the books & the leaked chapters from Winds, I find it much more likely that Aegon will make it to Kings Landing before Sansa/Alayne is identified, located, extracted from the Vale, & returned to Kings Landing to face a trial. Just my 2 coppers...

 

Aegon will never take King's Landing, after he and Jon Connington defeats Tyrell force dispatched to Stormlands, they will march to the Reach and save Oldtown from ironborn attack. Aegon will be crowned as a king in Starry Sept there by High Sparrow who escaped the capital thanks to Tyrell and Lannister butchery of the Faith which exposed the crown as very ungodly to common folk. King's Landing will be taken neither by Aegon nor Dany, because by the time Aegon consolidates his power in the Stormlands, Dorne, Reach, Westerlands (through Tyrek Lannister) and some parts of Riverlands, Dany will arrive, and the second dance of the dragons will start, no time for King's Landing. And Dany will not have time for King's Landing after she defeats Aegon and Southern Westeros because winter will finally come and she will need to deal with the North and undead army invasion.

Sansa will flee the Vale eventually with Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse who is Varys' spy (Varys used to call his spies mice in Myr before switching to little birds) after her dealings there, whatever they might be, and he will bring Sansa to Aegon who needs her as the key to the North and as his second wife (Arianne Martell is the first). There will be another Targaryen-Stark-Martell triangle intrigue between Aegon-Sansa-Arianne with ladies fighting over Aegon's attention, but unfortunately Dany and Tyrion will land on Dragonstone and start second Dance of the Dragons.

So yeah, King's Landing will never be taken by outside force, not while Cersei is there. However, at the very end of the books, when Jon comes to reclaim his rightful place as King of Westeros and brings second "Hour of the Wolf" to the capital, Cersei will burn the city in wildfire.

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

18 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Aegon will never take King's Landing, after he and Jon Connington defeats Tyrell force dispatched to Stormlands, they will march to the Reach and save Oldtown from ironborn attack. Aegon will be crowned as a king in Starry Sept there by High Sparrow who escaped the capital thanks to Tyrell and Lannister butchery of the Faith which exposed the crown as very ungodly to common folk. King's Landing will be taken neither by Aegon nor Dany, because by the time Aegon consolidates his power in the Stormlands, Dorne, Reach, Westerlands (through Tyrek Lannister) and some parts of Riverlands, Dany will arrive, and the second dance of the dragons will start, no time for King's Landing. And Dany will not have time for King's Landing after she defeats Aegon and Southern Westeros because winter will finally come and she will need to deal with the North and undead army invasion.

Sansa will flee the Vale eventually with Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse who is Varys' spy (Varys used to call his spies mice in Myr before switching to little birds) after her dealings there, whatever they might be, and he will bring Sansa to Aegon who needs her as the key to the North and as his second wife (Arianne Martell is the first). There will be another Targaryen-Stark-Martell triangle intrigue between Aegon-Sansa-Arianne with ladies fighting over Aegon's attention, but unfortunately Dany and Tyrion will land on Dragonstone and start second Dance of the Dragons.

So yeah, King's Landing will never be taken by outside force, not while Cersei is there. However, at the very end of the books, when Jon comes to reclaim his rightful place as King of Westeros and brings second "Hour of the Wolf" to the capital, Cersei will burn the city in wildfire.

Well, you obviously have quite a few opinions/theories that you take as fact. I don't claim to know anything for certain, no one but Martin does, but my personal theories differ greatly from yours. We'll never know for sure until Winds comes out & im sure it'll be a fantastic ride regardless.

[The Third Eye]

Damn.. now I don't have much time to respond to all these interesting postings in detail. (I'll hopefully find it later that weekend)... only a quick response to bemused:

I really hope you're theory proves wrong. To my mind, Tyrion's story would lose a great deal if he weren't Tywins son but another royal bastard. Tyrion has to be Tywin's son...sorry but I can't see the appeal here. He'd be less special, the story would lose a great deal of irony and the whole Tyrion kiling Tywin plot would be horribly diluted. Tyrion's allready a dwarf. Why make him a bastard too? Please please no! Tyrion has to be a Lannister.

[RobOsevens]

10 minutes ago, The Third Eye said:

I really hope you're theory proves wrong. To my mind, Tyrion's story would lose a great deal if he weren't Tywins son but another royal bastard. Tyrion has to be Tywin's son...sorry but I can't see the appeal here. He'd be less special, the story would lose a great deal of irony and the whole Tyrion kiling Tywin plot would be horribly diluted. Tyrion's allready a dwarf. Why make him a bastard too? Please please no! Tyrion has to be a Lannister.

I'm with you 3rd eye. I think Tyrion's story and arc loses too much if he is not Tywin's son. Plus too many secret Targs takes away the importance of other secret Targs

[BalerionTheCat]

There is a truckload of indices suggesting Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' bastards. The main for me is both Cersei and Joffrey mental state. Even if Cersei and Robert are mostly to blame for Joff bad education. None of the twins are anything like Tywin, while Tyrion is much like him. Cersei fascination for fire "It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms." (burning of the Tower of the Hand), the incest thing, her aspiration to emulate the Targaryens "Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys" (Tyrion), Aerys words to Jaime "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor"...

The "valonqar" word in Maggy's prophecy. Discovered in this thread. A good catch too.

[bemused]

9 hours ago, The Third Eye said:

Damn.. now I don't have much time to respond to all these interesting postings in detail. (I'll hopefully find it later that weekend)... only a quick response to bemused:

I really hope you're theory proves wrong. To my mind, Tyrion's story would lose a great deal if he weren't Tywins son but another royal bastard. Tyrion has to be Tywin's son...sorry but I can't see the appeal here. He'd be less special, the story would lose a great deal of irony and the whole Tyrion kiling Tywin plot would be horribly diluted. Tyrion's allready a dwarf. Why make him a bastard too? Please please no! Tyrion has to be a Lannister.

 It' not really my theory... and I don't really mind either way, I like Tyrion as a character, whatever the truth is. ... But there are clues that could make him Aerys' son .. he would still be Lannister through his mother and by his upbringing (maybe even stretching right back to Lann the Clever), just as Jon is a Stark in all he ways that count, except last name. .. Unless you think that Jon will suddenly cease to be Stark, if he ever finds out Rhaegar is his father. (The wall itself seems to recognise him as Stark)

When Genna says that Tyrion is Tywin's son, she's not talking about physical resemblance, or even outlook on life, or personal habits. She's talking about intelligence, and capacity for strategic thinking. There are quite a few characters in the books who share those traits, but who are definitely not Tywin's sons...Tyrion goes beyond Tywin intellectually, in his thirst for knowledge and history.. and there is the matter of his fascination with dragons and youthful dreams of dragons.. similar to a number of Targaryens..

But what I find so appealing in the premise, is the thought that the great Tywin Lannister, a man such as comes once in a thousand years, according to Genna, and one who is so fixated on the continuation of the Lannister line and legacy (but thinks nothing of obliterating other houses), should be unable to father a child himself. .. Cosmic justice. Lose one bit of irony, gain another

ETA: re: Tyrion killing Tywin.. if Tywin's not his father that means Tyrion is neither a kingslayer nor a kinslayer, but sadly , if Aerys is the poppa of Jaime & Cersei, Jaime is both kingslayer and kinslayer..(a 2 for1)

I'm not too worried about the possibility that Tyrion's a bastard, I think GRRM has a theme going about bastards coming into power.

[ravenous reader]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

There is a truckload of indices suggesting Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' bastards. The main for me is both Cersei and Joffrey mental state. Even if Cersei and Robert are mostly to blame for Joff bad education. None of the twins are anything like Tywin, while Tyrion is much like him. Cersei fascination for fire "It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms." (burning of the Tower of the Hand), the incest thing, her aspiration to emulate the Targaryens "Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys" (Tyrion), Aerys words to Jaime "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor"...

The "valonqar" word in Maggy's prophecy. Discovered in this thread. A good catch too.

In the same vein, Tyrion observes that Joffrey is 'not Robert the second, but Aerys the third...':

Quote

 I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father."

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . . "

"It appears things needed to be said." Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. "Go."

She went, seething.

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

My favorite is the following enigmatic passage, when Jaime is scouring the subterranean recesses of the Red Keep, turning up its secrets (which may contain his own), after Tywin's murder:

Quote

For hours they had groped through twisting passages, narrow crawl spaces, hidden doors, secret steps, and shafts that plunged down into utter blackness. Seldom had he felt so utterly a cripple. A man takes much for granted when he has two hands. Ladders, for an instance. Even crawling did not come easy; not for nought do they speak of hands and knees. Nor could he hold a torch and climb, as others could.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me.

 

[desire]

No.

[Neds Secret]

On 2 September 2015 at 9:22 AM, Nataliespeaking said:

I think joffrey's hair is almost white blond in the show and Tyrion's is sandy blonde. Yes Tyrion's is white blond in the books but maybe the show's producers didn't want to give us that red herring and instead a different clue. I personally think it would be the greatest irony and in favor of the twins being targaryens.

It would make the twins attraction to each other make sense because Targaryens have been " keeping it in the family" since Aegons conquest. It would explain Cersies Pyro tendencies and ironically give Tyrion and Jaime more in common because they would both be father killing kinslayers, Jaime and Tyrion still being brothers due to Joanna. I can see the clues but I still believe them to be red herrings and see Tywin as the sire of the 3 of them. I am suspicious however of Tywins late entrance into fatherhood, I do have concerns as to his fertility or virility or whatever.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

The neat thing about this theory is that it could turn out a numer of ways, that are currently backed by enough textual information already to be justified. I would feel comfortable arguing any one of the angles, because there's plenty of crumb dropping through out the books. I personally lean towards Jaime and Cersei being Aerys' bastards and Tyrion to be Tywin's, but it's left so opened ended only the last two books will tell.

[Queen Alienor]

On ‎19‎.‎02‎.‎2016 at 9:34 PM, The Third Eye said:

I really hope you're theory proves wrong. To my mind, Tyrion's story would lose a great deal if he weren't Tywins son but another royal bastard. Tyrion has to be Tywin's son...sorry but I can't see the appeal here. He'd be less special, the story would lose a great deal of irony and the whole Tyrion kiling Tywin plot would be horribly diluted. Tyrion's allready a dwarf. Why make him a bastard too? Please please no! Tyrion has to be a Lannister.

Agreed.

The tale of Tywin Lannister and his children who destroy everything he build is one of great irony, and to make any of the three of them not his kids would take that away. The point is that he brought it on himself in some ways, by being a horrible father, which wouldn't be half is poignant if the kids were Aerys anyway and always going to be mad/not working in the Lannisters best interest/etc.

Also, I'm rather sure WOIAF makes the timeline for J+A = J+C pretty much impossible.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Queen Alienor said:

Also, I'm rather sure WOIAF makes the timeline for J+A = J+C pretty much impossible.

At the time for Cersei and Jaime (265 AC), Joanna was at Casterly Rock and Tywin was Hand of the King (262 - 281 AC). So either he left for CR, or she came to KL. Joanna left KL after some "incident" with Aerys. The World Book:

Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King’s Landing thereafter.

She seldom visited King’s Landing. But seldom is not never. And, AFAIK, there is no documented evidence Tywin left KL for any purpose during this period. The Hand of the King is expected at the King's side. If he leaves, it has to be for something important. It is more logical for Joanna to visit. So Joanna presence at KL at the right time is quite possible, even likely.

[Queen Alienor]

1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

At the time for Cersei and Jaime (265 AC), Joanna was at Casterly Rock and Tywin was Hand of the King (262 - 281 AC). So either he left for CR, or she came to KL. Joanna left KL after some "incident" with Aerys. The World Book:

Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King’s Landing thereafter.

She seldom visited King’s Landing. But seldom is not never. And, AFAIK, there is no documented evidence Tywin left KL for any purpose during this period. The Hand of the King is expected at the King's side. If he leaves, it has to be for something important. It is more logical for Joanna to visit. So Joanna presence at KL at the right time is quite possible, even likely.

I stand corrected. Still, I really don't think the twins are Aerys children.

[Amris]

1 hour ago, Queen Alienor said:

[snip]

Also, I'm rather sure WOIAF makes the timeline for J+A = J+C pretty much impossible.

On page 115 of the WOIAF it is implied - but not explicitly stated - that Joanna may have been Aerys' paramour (more likely molested by Aerys IMO) while she was one of Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting after 259.

Aerys II is 'reliably reported' to have taken 'unwonted liberties' with Joanna during her wedding night.

The twins were born in 266. So they cannot have been conceived during Joanna's wedding night in 263.

Joanna then was dismissed from Rhaella's service 'not long after' her (Joanna) wedding Tywin in 263 and she 'departed at once for Casterly Rock'. Since this means Joanna left King's Landing either in 263 or at the latest in early 264 the twins cannot have been conceived between the wedding and Joanna's leaving KL either.

This state of affairs is probably what you mean by 'pretty much impossible'.

However the WOIAF does not stop at this point. It explicitly leaves a loophole: "Lady Joanna ... seldom visited King's Landing thereafter."

The word seldom cannot hide the fact that the sentence states that Joanna visited King's Landing thereafter. What's more: the use of the word seldom makes it clear, she did so more than once!

Also one has to take into account that GRRM puts the narrative in the WOIAF into the hands of an unreliable narrator - Maester Yandel - who gives the book to King Tommen (meaning the book fictionally was written by the maeister while the Lannisters are in power in KL). So Maester Yandel would try to discount any possibility of the Lannister children not being Tywin's. Thus one has to read between the lines. For instance the wording 'seldom' really means 'several times' IMO.

Still it is true that we have no proof either way. GRRM has set things up rather neatly. All options are on the table as the politicians say.

Ninja'ed by Balerion while I was researching and writing this lengthy post

[bemused]

8 hours ago, Queen Alienor said:

Agreed.

The tale of Tywin Lannister and his children who destroy everything he build is one of great irony, and to make any of the three of them not his kids would take that away. The point is that he brought it on himself in some ways, by being a horrible father, which wouldn't be half is poignant if the kids were Aerys anyway and always going to be mad/not working in the Lannisters best interest/etc.

Also, I'm rather sure WOIAF makes the timeline for J+A = J+C pretty much impossible.

Why would it make any difference ? He still raised them and believed they were his. They believed they were his. He was still a horrible father to them.

I think the timeline works for all three.

[BalerionTheCat]

There is still great irony this way. Cersei and Jaime were his pride. Tyrion his shame. While Tyrion is his son, Cersei and Jaime are not.