Are Cersei and Jaime the children of Aerys?

[Queen Alienor]

47 minutes ago, bemused said:

Why would it make any difference ? He still raised them and believed they were his. They believed they were his. He was still a horrible father to them.

Because the fact that they are Lannisters through and through, Tywins children in literally everything, is what makes it so poignant. For example, Tyrions conflict with his father, who'd so like to believe Tyrion isn't his, looses about a dozen levels of what makes it so compelling if Tywin is right and Tyrion isn't his son. It also lets him of the hook for kinslaying, which is one of the things that really made an impression on his character, so if in the next book everybody is like, yeah, wasn't your dad anyway, so don't worry, it would feel like a major cop out.

And the twins... well, I just like the irony, that it's Tywins kids, his in blood and nurture and literally everything, are who destroy everything he build up. If they're in truth Aerys children, then that is just his old enemy winning instead of Tywin himself screwing up monumentally.

[bemused]

2 hours ago, Queen Alienor said:

Because the fact that they are Lannisters through and through, Tywins children in literally everything, is what makes it so poignant. For example, Tyrions conflict with his father, who'd so like to believe Tyrion isn't his, looses about a dozen levels of what makes it so compelling if Tywin is right and Tyrion isn't his son. It also lets him of the hook for kinslaying, which is one of the things that really made an impression on his character, so if in the next book everybody is like, yeah, wasn't your dad anyway, so don't worry, it would feel like a major cop out.

And the twins... well, I just like the irony, that it's Tywins kids, his in blood and nurture and literally everything, are who destroy everything he build up. If they're in truth Aerys children, then that is just his old enemy winning instead of Tywin himself screwing up monumentally.

I guess we just see things differently. To me it would lose nothing. The new picture would be every bit as compelling and poignant as the old - just for different reasons, and there would still be plenty of irony to go around.

For Tyrion, it wouldn't be so simple as.. "yeah, wasn't your dad anyway, so don't worry". I don't think it would be very reassuring to know The Mad KIng was really your father and almost certainly forced himself on your mother... Or that the man you believed was your father, whom you spent much of your life trying to please, or just earn a kindly word from, sent men to murder what were, in reality, your sister-in-law, niece and nephew. (And BTW, sending men he knew were likely to be very brutal about it.) I think Tyrion could be certain that if Tywin had known that Tyrion wasn't his son , Tyrion definitely wouldn't have survived beyond the cradle.

Take a look at the Lannister family tree.. Do you not think it would be ironic if Tyrion eventually wound up having the best claim to Casterly Rock because of Joanna? (knowing that Tywin had been determined to it deny to him)

Jaime wears a white cloak (and some think he'll wear a black cloak before all is said and done...) so he won't hold the Lannister seat.

Tywin still will have screwed up monumentally, any way you look at it.

[Amris]

I would like to point out that there is not just a potential for huge irony in Tywin's arc (though that certainly) - but also for great drama.

That picture emerges when one considers the WOIAF in addition to the Song of Ice and Fire. Tywin was an extremely gifted Hand who did very well for the Kingdom. Tywin even went so far as to pay off the Royal debt to the Iron Bank with Lannister gold! But Aerys got jealous of Tywin's successes and despite Tywin giving his best for the realm (even using his own gold for the realm) continually sabotaged his own Hand.

Now if Aerys not only sabotaged Tywin politically - but also his family. By cuckolding Tywin so that one or more of Tywin's children turn out to be Aerys's instead. That would be so dramatic that it would make me feel sorry for Tywin.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

30 minutes ago, Amris said:

I would like to point out that there is not just a potential for huge irony in Tywin's arc (though that certainly) - but also for great drama.

That picture emerges when one considers the WOIAF in addition to the Song of Ice and Fire. Tywin was an extremely gifted Hand who did very well for the Kingdom. Tywin even went so far as to pay off the Royal debt to the Iron Bank with Lannister gold! But Aerys got jealous of Tywin's successes and despite Tywin giving his best for the realm (even using his own gold for the realm) continually sabotaged his own Hand.

Now if Aerys not only sabotaged Tywin politically - but also his family. By cuckolding Tywin so that one or more of Tywin's children turn out to be Aerys's instead. That would be so dramatic that it would make me feel sorry for Tywin.

I've never liked Tywin even a little bit, but the way you just put that, I might pity the guy, if it turns out to be true, which I feel it may.

[melx]

On Thursday, September 03, 2015 at 6:40 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

TWOIAF makes it sound like Aerys was nowhere near Joanna when the twins would have been conceived.  She left King's Landing shortly after marrying Tywin and lived at Casterly Rock.  The twins weren't born until three years into the marriage.

that is simply not true, TWOIAF is not detail account of Joanna's day to day life,but it clearly stated that she did visit KL several times,thous making hooking up with King very possible.

there are bunch of clues that J & C are Targs:

from GOT : "Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black"... silver hair & black cloak = Targ hair & Targ colors

J & C  relationship is not something that is  Lannister trait but Targ thing....as is their looks: sure Joanna was beautiful but C & J are "out of that world" beautiful just like Targs

Cersei's fascination with wildfire ..another Targ trait

AFFC: "Jaime ignored that. “If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.” “Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”“Now you sound like Aerys.”

AFFC:"when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She’d stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said."  ... just like her dad...

and then there are classics like lady Genna words from AFFC :“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.”

and of course Jaime`s dream: “Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” & “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. "

.....but GRRM does those kind of things a lot and the way he will revel them in future book will show his 'quality" or lack of it...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

None of the clues you mention are necessarily clues.  

Jaime's hair is not silver. Looking silver in the moonlight doesn't change that fact.  And black is not a color exclusive to the Targaryens.

Fascination with wildfire isn't a Targ trait. It was something Aerys had. The only other Targ who is mentioned as having anything to do with wildfire is Aerion, who rather than fascinated with it, mistakenly thought drinking it would turn him into a literal dragon. Tyrion also has a fire fascination element, per his recollections of lighting fires in the bowels on Casterly Rock and imagining his sister burning in them (a far more Aerys-like trait than just enjoying watching a fire).

Insanity is not exclusive to the Targaryen family either. Aerys was both paranoid and power-mad. Cersei is both paranoid and power-mad. Doesn't mean they're related. And it speaks more to what power can do to people than it does to genetics. 

Notice the "or" in the "grief or ecstasy" line. Could have been either. And pyromania is not necessarily inherited.

Genna's statement is about personality, not paternity. That's why it bothered Tywin so much...that the son he hated was the one most like him.

Jaime's dream does not necessarily reveal anything other than that you should be careful what you wish for. Tywin's dreams for his golden twins did not include dishonor, incest, regicide, etc. He never imagined any of that would come along with the great knight and the queen. Dreams are not always literal, as GRRM himself has said.

And as far as clues in the text go, there are more for Tyrion as a Targ, than for the twins.

 

The quality of GRRM's work is long-since established. Liking what he does with it or not in no way impacts the quality of the series. 

[norwaywolf123]

All this Lannister hate, why does everyone and everything have to be targaryen? People only want jaime, cersei, and tyrion to be aerys to spite tywin. There is also a theory about rohanne webber being calla blackfyre, if so then lannisters can have gotten dragon blood from her.

[The Third Eye]

On 21.2.2016 at 9:02 PM, Queen Alienor said:

Because the fact that they are Lannisters through and through, Tywins children in literally everything, is what makes it so poignant. For example, Tyrions conflict with his father, who'd so like to believe Tyrion isn't his, looses about a dozen levels of what makes it so compelling if Tywin is right and Tyrion isn't his son. It also lets him of the hook for kinslaying, which is one of the things that really made an impression on his character, so if in the next book everybody is like, yeah, wasn't your dad anyway, so don't worry, it would feel like a major cop out.

And the twins... well, I just like the irony, that it's Tywins kids, his in blood and nurture and literally everything, are who destroy everything he build up. If they're in truth Aerys children, then that is just his old enemy winning instead of Tywin himself screwing up monumentally.

about that "next book-thing" ... I doubt that any further book in the series will actually either confirm or deny the parantage of both, the twins and Tyrion. There are no witnesses!  We'll be having this discussion after all the books are out  like we're having it now. Literature will leave things up for debate and that is what makes literature great. There'll always be people who discuss whether Orphilia's death in Hamlet was an accident or suicide and there will always be people who discuss whether or not the Twins were Tywin's or not....

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, The Third Eye said:

about that "next book-thing" ... I doubt that any further book in the series will actually either confirm or deny the parantage of both, the twins and Tyrion. There are no witnesses!  We'll be having this discussion after all the books are out  like we're having it now. Literature will leave things up for debate and that is what makes literature great. There'll always be people who discuss whether Orphilia's death in Hamlet was an accident or suicide and there will always be people who discuss whether or not the Twins were Tywin's or not....

Most likely, no one could confirm Aerys paternity. But if Jaime & Cersei are Aerys' bastards, there must be some justification for it. GRRM would not do it just for cuckolding Tywin (maybe for that too). At some point in the future, I'm convinced something will happen, which would be possible only if the Twins have Targaryen's blood. Something like bonding a dragon, for example. Could refer to their children too, Myrcella for example. Maybe some will think that, whatever is that, is not proof enough. But past some point, it is more because you don't want to believe.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I believe Twyin fathered all Joanna's children. All of them have some of his character plus the timeline doesn't fit too.Twyin and Joanna married in 263.Joanna went to Casterly Rock (and visited King's Landing seldom afterwards) and gave birth in 266.If Aerys took "unwonted liberties" again in her seldom visits, it would have been reported/rumored.

The point of Jaime's dream is that both he and Cersei failed in their roles:

Cersei started as a young,beautifull,rich,cunning woman but her vanity,stuborness,insecurities,cruelty and lack of love (at least from her father and husband) destroyed her. 

Jaime started as an ideal knight full of chivalry and honor but became the Kingslayer.

[The Third Eye]

On 8.3.2016 at 11:46 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Most likely, no one could confirm Aerys paternity. But if Jaime & Cersei are Aerys' bastards, there must be some justification for it. GRRM would not do it just for cuckolding Tywin (maybe for that too). At some point in the future, I'm convinced something will happen, which would be possible only if the Twins have Targaryen's blood. Something like bonding a dragon, for example. Could refer to their children too, Myrcella for example. Maybe some will think that, whatever is that, is not proof enough. But past some point, it is more because you don't want to believe.

As I understand it, there's nothing you can only do if you have Targaryan blood. Except for maybe fulfilling the "prince that was promised" prophecy. Besides that the Targaryans haven't been the only dragonriders in history and there is nothing else that makes Targaryan blood any special but superstition and the fact that power resides where people believe it resides.

If Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' bastards then this is a subtly implied possibility that make reading fun. Welcome to the world of (real) literature.

[BalerionTheCat]

6 hours ago, The Third Eye said:

As I understand it, there's nothing you can only do if you have Targaryan blood. Except for maybe fulfilling the "prince that was promised" prophecy. Besides that the Targaryans haven't been the only dragonriders in history and there is nothing else that makes Targaryan blood any special but superstition and the fact that power resides where people believe it resides.

If Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' bastards then this is a subtly implied possibility that make reading fun. Welcome to the world of (real) literature.

I'm not familiar with the question of the bloodline of those who ride dragons. But IIRC, most were Targaryens. So it must be a huge plus anyway. For the others, is there evidence some were Targaryen's bastards, or could never have been bastards, or had Valyrian blood by any means? Is there evidence the bloodline is necessary, or is not necessary? For example, if blood matters, random children from Dragonstone would have much more chance to bond dragons, than say children from the Westerlands.

But I agree, some will not see it as a definitive proof. While other will believe it, beyond reasonable doubt. In real life, not only in real literature, you not always (rarely) have absolute certitudes. Hey, some people are even contesting men went to the Moon!

ETA: The prince must be born from Aerys II and Rhaella. A Lannister bastard cannot be the prince.

[Dofs]

On 22/02/2016 at 5:42 AM, Amris said:

I would like to point out that there is not just a potential for huge irony in Tywin's arc (though that certainly) - but also for great drama.

That picture emerges when one considers the WOIAF in addition to the Song of Ice and Fire. Tywin was an extremely gifted Hand who did very well for the Kingdom. Tywin even went so far as to pay off the Royal debt to the Iron Bank with Lannister gold! But Aerys got jealous of Tywin's successes and despite Tywin giving his best for the realm (even using his own gold for the realm) continually sabotaged his own Hand.

Now if Aerys not only sabotaged Tywin politically - but also his family. By cuckolding Tywin so that one or more of Tywin's children turn out to be Aerys's instead. That would be so dramatic that it would make me feel sorry for Tywin.

There will no drama in that because Tywin will simply not care about what you had written. He will not care about anything any more. He is dead.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 22/2/2016 at 6:42 AM, Amris said:

Now if Aerys not only sabotaged Tywin politically - but also his family. By cuckolding Tywin so that one or more of Tywin's children turn out to be Aerys's instead. That would be so dramatic that it would make me feel sorry for Tywin.

I will never feel sorry for Tywin. In fact, to have one of Aerys' bastards to sleep in Tywin's bed in CR will please me greatly. The castle and place Tywin did everything for, was his pride. Killed and ruined so many people for.

[redsparrow35]

I've always believed in the Jamie Cersi secret Targaryen theory. However what if it was through their mother and not their father? What if Tywin Lannister actually married Rahella Targaryen who was had switched lives with her lady in waiting Joanna Lannister? I mean GRRM pulled a similar move with Jeyne Poole as the Arya Stark who married Ramsey Bolton.

So what proof is there for this theory?

1. There was a long established complicated relationship between Aryes, Tywin, Rahella and Joanna ( Joanna was long rumoured to have a crush on the Mad King that culminated with her sleeping with him at the Coronation of King Jaehaerys II. Meanwhile Rahella actively detested her brother. To the point where after giving him a son in 259. Rahella was never pregnant until 263 ( the year Joanna Lannister was sent away from kings landing) from that point on Rahella had a miscarriage virtually every year until shortly after Joanna's supposed death in 273. A few years later Viscerys and Danaerys were born perfectly healthy. 

2. Tywin Lannister was a man driven by power and family legacy. Yet he chose to marry for Love to a woman who offered him no political advantage as she was already a Lannister. Something that seems strictly out of character for Tywin. A man who would later organise the rape of his sons first wife. A woman whom he married out of love. 

3. Both Jamie and Cersi had Origionally been arranged to marry members of the Dornish Court due to their mothers friendship with the mother of Doran Martell while being the Lady in waiting to Rahella Targaryen despite the Lannisters not being on good terms with the Dornish historically. 

4. Raeghar Targaryen was Born during the Tragedy of Summerhall. since Rahella and Aryes had already given birth to a heir and supposedly the prince that was promised. There was no need for them to continue seeing each other. 

 5. Tywin Lannister served as Cupbarer to King Aegon Targaryen and became close friends with Aryes Targaryen to the point that Tywin Lannister was given the Honor of Knighting his friend. Yet by 276 When Tywin held a tournament in Honor the birth of Viserys. Both the young prince and his mother stayed in Kings Landing and Tywin and Aryes relationship had so deteriorated that Aryes refused Cersi as a candidate for Raegahrs hand in marriage and called Tywin a servant. Aryes would then later go on to name Jamie as the Youngest knight ever to join the Kingsguard purely to spite Tywin Lannister. 

[norwaywolf123]

2 hours ago, redsparrow35 said:

I've always believed in the Jamie Cersi secret Targaryen theory. However what if it was through their mother and not their father? What if Tywin Lannister actually married Rahella Targaryen who was had switched lives with her lady in waiting Joanna Lannister? I mean GRRM pulled a similar move with Jeyne Poole as the Arya Stark who married Ramsey Bolton.

this is borderline, but if it were true i think that the mad king would have more against tywin.

2 hours ago, redsparrow35 said:

So what proof is there for this theory?

1. There was a long established complicated relationship between Aryes, Tywin, Rahella and Joanna ( Joanna was long rumoured to have a crush on the Mad King that culminated with her sleeping with him at the Coronation of King Jaehaerys II. Meanwhile Rahella actively detested her brother. To the point where after giving him a son in 259. Rahella was never pregnant until 263 ( the year Joanna Lannister was sent away from kings landing) from that point on Rahella had a miscarriage virtually every year until shortly after Joanna's supposed death in 273. A few years later Viscerys and Danaerys were born perfectly healthy. 

2. Tywin Lannister was a man driven by power and family legacy. Yet he chose to marry for Love to a woman who offered him no political advantage as she was already a Lannister. Something that seems strictly out of character for Tywin. A man who would later organise the rape of his sons first wife. A woman whom he married out of love. 

3. Both Jamie and Cersi had Origionally been arranged to marry members of the Dornish Court due to their mothers friendship with the mother of Doran Martell while being the Lady in waiting to Rahella Targaryen despite the Lannisters not being on good terms with the Dornish historically. 

4. Raeghar Targaryen was Born during the Tragedy of Summerhall. since Rahella and Aryes had already given birth to a heir and supposedly the prince that was promised. There was no need for them to continue seeing each other. 

 5. Tywin Lannister served as Cupbarer to King Aegon Targaryen and became close friends with Aryes Targaryen to the point that Tywin Lannister was given the Honor of Knighting his friend. Yet by 276 When Tywin held a tournament in Honor the birth of Viserys. Both the young prince and his mother stayed in Kings Landing and Tywin and Aryes relationship had so deteriorated that Aryes refused Cersi as a candidate for Raegahrs hand in marriage and called Tywin a servant. Aryes would then later go on to name Jamie as the Youngest knight ever to join the Kingsguard purely to spite Tywin Lannister. 

is there any quoates? supporting this?

[norwaywolf123]

If Cersei&Jaime and/or Tyrion are the mad kings bastard i hope they die. Joffrey, TOmmen and myrcella would also deserve death if that was the case. and any bastards tyrion may or may not have fathered would deserved to be killed en masse like roberts! 

Viserys Plumm most likely the bastard of aegon the unworthy also deserves to die and all of his descendants not for being a bastard but for stealing another mans name! 

One drop rule, counts!

[norwaywolf123]

For those believing that Tywin was infertile. Even if why could not another lannister father them on Joanna? Why would she risk bearing Aerys babies? Kevan, Tygette and gerion were all availeble. Tygette also did not have the best relationship with his brother being jealous of tywins achivments and so on.

[redsparrow35]

12 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

is there any quoates? supporting this?

Mostly. On tablet so it's a bit hard to look it up right now. 

Most of the information comes from Barristan Selmy chapters. 

Also check the timeline on the Wiki. Everything here is just an extrapolated version of what was in the wiki pages of several characters

 

 

[redsparrow35]

Quote " you are my most able servant Tywin, but a man does not marry his heir to his servants daughter. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen#Quotes_by_Aerys

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaella_Targaryen

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joanna_Lannister

"Prince Aryes...as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock. A cousin of Tywin Lannister" Barristan Selmy to Dany

"Not loved. Perhaps Wanted is a better word, but... It was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwoman and stable boys" Selmy in response to the question if there was a woman Aryes loved more then his queen. 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tywin_Lannister

Genna Lannister recounts Tywin Lannister smiling 4 times. 

His Wedding, His appointment as Hand, the destruction Tarbeck Hall (House Reyne) and the birth of his son. 3 of those indicate political achievement with his wedding being the only notable outlier

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest#Year_261_After_the_Conquest

a link to the timeline to see that all the events happened in the order mentioned