What happened between Rhaenyra and Cole?

[purple-eyes]

purple-eyes

 

According to his own account, Mushroom got the young Rhaenyra to masturbate him.

 

Maybe his tale was a mixed stuff with some truth and lies?

It does not sound this will happen. Maybe just he wanted to show off himself. 

Mushroom had to make up somethings anyway, for example, he had no idea what daemon and Rhaenaya did on the rocks in the ocean. 

[purple-eyes]

Although, I doubt the whole "seduction" thing is true. It makes her sound like she's some shy maiden victim. I'm sure she was not. It's more likely she and Daemon got hot consensual dragon monkey sex and they thought Viserys would approve of their marriage because of this. Cole thought her "stained" by the Roguish Dick (literally) and got mad.

 

It is possible that she loved Daemon and slept with him willingly and begged to wed him. 

But then I can not figure out why she would have a reason to meet Cole before her wedding night. 

Like I said before, if she loved daemon and slept with him, then there is no need to go check on Cole before wedding night. 

If Cole loved her while she loved daemon, then Cole would not have reason or confidence to ask her to elope with him either. 

Seriously, this girl already begged to marry Daemon, how come Cole would think she would agree to run off with him?

 

She is certainly not willing to marry a gay. The only reason I can think about for her to do something before her wedding night was to lose her maidenhead to somebody she chose. If she already lost it to Daemon and wanted to marry him, what is the point to meet with Cole before Wedding night? It would make sense that she was rejected by Cole, then she turned to Strong on the same night to lose her maidenhead because she would never want to give that to her gay husband. 

[Danelle]

What happened to Rhaenyra and Criston Cole?

 

More or less the same thing that happened to Cersei and Jaime Lannister.

[purple-eyes]

What happened to Rhaenyra and Criston Cole?

 

More or less the same thing that happened to Cersei and Jaime Lannister.

 

true, a knight found his goddess was indeed a bitch and then got angry........

But Rhaenyra's three children were not cole's though. 

[Balerion the kitten]

What happened to Rhaenyra and Criston Cole?
 
More or less the same thing that happened to Cersei and Jaime Lannister.

Thats how I see it. There is a lot of parallels existing between Rhaenyra and Cersei

[purple-eyes]

Thats how I see it. There is a lot of parallels existing between Rhaenyra and Cersei

 

Exactly. Even the number of bastards is same: three. And they all died too.

The only missing thing is that Cersei did not have a powerful second husband like Daemon. 

Otherwise she would be in a better situation. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It is possible that she loved Daemon and slept with him willingly and begged to wed him. 
But then I can not figure out why she would have a reason to meet Cole before her wedding night. 
Like I said before, if she loved daemon and slept with him, then there is no need to go check on Cole before wedding night. 
If Cole loved her while she loved daemon, then Cole would not have reason or confidence to ask her to elope with him either. 
Seriously, this girl already begged to marry Daemon, how come Cole would think she would agree to run off with him?
 
She is certainly not willing to marry a gay. The only reason I can think about for her to do something before her wedding night was to lose her maidenhead to somebody she chose. If she already lost it to Daemon and wanted to marry him, what is the point to meet with Cole before Wedding night? It would make sense that she was rejected by Cole, then she turned to Strong on the same night to lose her maidenhead because she would never want to give that to her gay husband.

I have only read TPR and TPATQ once, but mostly of the things narrated there, specially about Rhaenyra's love/sex life, is to be treated as it comes: narrated by the winners. As far as we know, maybe Rhaenyra had a childish crush on him that he believed to be more, and once she got over it, he got mad at her "rejection".

Many things that are said about her are about her sexual life and that's not coincidence. I wouldn't be lying if I say most of them are probably also lies. The whole "taught to seduce" or "visiting Cole" might be a fabrication from both sides.

Personally, I think she had sex with Cole, simply as that. Then she moved on. Cole felt used and stained in his honour as a KG and started to hate her.

[purple-eyes]

I have only read TPR and TPATQ once, but mostly of the things narrated there, specially about Rhaenyra's love/sex life, is to be treated as it comes: narrated by the winners. As far as we know, maybe Rhaenyra had a childish crush on him that he believed to be more, and once she got over it, he got mad at her "rejection".

Many things that are said about her are about her sexual life and that's not coincidence. I wouldn't be lying if I say most of them are probably also lies. The whole "taught to seduce" or "visiting Cole" might be a fabrication from both sides.

Personally, I think she had sex with Cole, simply as that. Then she moved on. Cole felt used and stained in his honour as a KG and started to hate her.

 

Maybe. I have a feeling that maybe Daemon is indeed Rhaenyra's true love. 

Daemon made use of this to get power, though. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe. I have a feeling that maybe Daemon is indeed Rhaenyra's true love. 
Daemon made use of this to get power, though.

If he did, I'm sure Rhaenyra was very aware. She was practically raised at court: she knew well how power worked. Also, she had likely children with some guy. Marrying another Targaryen would give her credibility and, in any case, a son with him would have also chances to rule at some point.

The thing with R is how is she portrayed. She's either some jezebel or a puppet. People fearing Daemon would be the ruler believed so after assuming she would have no voice as a Queen, which we know it's not true as she was educated to be a Queen. R has a lot of flaws, but I doubt being a clueless little girl was one of them.

[purple-eyes]

If he did, I'm sure Rhaenyra was very aware. She was practically raised at court: she knew well how power worked. Also, she had likely children with some guy. Marrying another Targaryen would give her credibility and, in any case, a son with him would have also chances to rule at some point.

The thing with R is how is she portrayed. She's either some jezebel or a puppet. People fearing Daemon would be the ruler believed so after assuming she would have no voice as a Queen, which we know it's not true as she was educated to be a Queen. R has a lot of flaws, but I doubt being a clueless little girl was one of them.

 

Rhaenyra also needed the help of her uncle. Daemon is very useful for her in the games of thrones too. 

there was no doubt that she was attracted by daemon. But the reason she chose her was not only due to love or desire. 

She needed this man to be on her side to gain the crown. She is very ambitious just like daemon. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

They had a messy breakup, much like me and my ex girlfriend. The difference being that I didn't cause a civil war to get back at her (though I was sorely tempted)

I'm guessing your ex-girlfriend didn't have dragons.

[Lord Varys]

I've tried to untangle that mess.

 

First it is quite clear that Prince Daemon only became interested in Rhaenyra after she was formally and with great pomp and ceremony installed as Viserys' heir. Before that, he fathomed himself the Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne, and he had to cool down somewhat before he figured things out. Rhaenyra was now the way to the throne, and since she was still a girl and unmarried he could get close to the throne if he wooed her and became her consort.

 

The idea that Daemon would only help Rhaenyra to seduce Ser Criston rather than seducing her instead makes little sense. The correct version would be that Daemon seduced Rhaenyra, that Ser Arryk caught them abed together, and Daemon later tried to blackmail/convince his brother to annul his marriage to Rhea Royce and allow him to Rhaenyra because nobody else would take her now. That then led to his exile. This is the most convincing version because it also explains why Arryk Cargyll later joined with Aegon II during the Dance - most likely because he resented either 'the whore Rhaenyra' or her later husband, Prince Daemon, because of their fornication.

 

Ser Criston Cole is a harder nut to crack, but my take on him is that he was indeed very much romantically in love with Rhaenyra. The whole 'chaste courtly love' thing doesn't hold much water for two reasons. First, Cole is a man of very humble origins (the son of the steward of Blackhaven) who rose to the very top of the food chain. At the end of his career he is not only the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard but also the Hand of the King, the second most powerful man in the Realm. Such a kind of man - the sort of cruel and calculating man Cole reveals himself to be during the Dance - doesn't reject what is offered to him. And Rhaenyra very clearly showed that she was interested in him.

 

The other hint provide the men Cole attacks during the wedding tourney - Harwin Strong and Joffrey Lonmouth. Harwin is an understandable target considering that he apparently dishonored the Princess of Dragonstone by beginning an affair with her (although the better explanation would be that he was jealous), but the poor Joffrey Lonmouth shouldn't have raised Cole's ire since he was just Laenor's paramour. That is where Mushroom's tale makes no sense. Cole would only have tried to hurt Laenor if he did not want Rhaenyra to marry him - which makes only sense if he wanted her for himself in a romantic and sexual way, presumably as his legal wife. Criston wouldn't have had a reason to loath Rhaenyra or Laenor if he was actually abhorred by her attempts to seduce him since that would mean he did not love Rhaenyra in any romantic way - and thus he would have been perfectly okay with an arranged marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra.

 

What remains unclear is whether Rhaenyra and Criston ever actually consummated their relationship. Criston clearly was in love with her but may have restrained himself to not break his vows as a Kingsguard - a fact that could explain why Rhaenyra had allowed herself to be seduced by Daemon earlier).

My guess is that Criston either confessed his deep love to Rhaenyra in the night they had their break-up (if she did not already know all that) and/or he asked her for her hand in marriage, begging her to give up her claim to the Iron Throne and join him as a poor sellsword in exile. And Rhaenyra was not exactly ... enthusiastic about his whole proposal. Instead, she made it clear to Cole that she was the Princess of Dragonstone, the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne of Westeros, a woman of the blood of the dragon who would never give up her rightful place in life. She did not love or would ever share the bed with Laenor Velaryon, but she would, of course, marry him. Her counter offer would have been to make Criston her (semi-)official paramour and the father of her children, but she categorically refused to run away or marry a man born as low as he was. That was then the end of the whole thing.

 

We know that Harwin Strong had no scruples becoming the paramour of the Princess of Dragonstone, but he is still the biggest mystery in this whole story. Did he actually love Rhaenyra or was only interested in power? Did Rhaenyra love him or was he just a convenient (and attractive and well-built) sperm-donor for her sons? What was his endgame, and the endgame of his father, who was Viserys' Hand and, presumably, the brain behind the whole affair? Did Lord Lyonel and his elder son aim at the Iron Throne by eventually marrying Harwin to Rhaenyra - say, in the wake of Laenor's sudden death?

 

The question who murdered whom later on is still an open question. Only Laena seems to have died of a natural death.

[purple-eyes]

I've tried to untangle that mess.
 
First it is quite clear that Prince Daemon only became interested in Rhaenyra after she was formally and with great pomp and ceremony installed as Viserys' heir. Before that, he fathomed himself the Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne, and he had to cool down somewhat before he figured things out. Rhaenyra was now the way to the throne, and since she was still a girl and unmarried he could get close to the throne if he wooed her and became her consort.
 
The idea that Daemon would only help Rhaenyra to seduce Ser Criston rather than seducing her instead makes little sense. The correct version would be that Daemon seduced Rhaenyra, that Ser Arryk caught them abed together, and Daemon later tried to blackmail/convince his brother to annul his marriage to Rhea Royce and allow him to Rhaenyra because nobody else would take her now. That then led to his exile. This is the most convincing version because it also explains why Arryk Cargyll later joined with Aegon II during the Dance - most likely because he resented either 'the whore Rhaenyra' or her later husband, Prince Daemon, because of their fornication.
 
Ser Criston Cole is a harder nut to crack, but my take on him is that he was indeed very much romantically in love with Rhaenyra. The whole 'chaste courtly love' thing doesn't hold much water for two reasons. First, Cole is a man of very humble origins (the son of the steward of Blackhaven) who rose to the very top of the food chain. At the end of his career he is not only the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard but also the Hand of the King, the second most powerful man in the Realm. Such a kind of man - the sort of cruel and calculating man Cole reveals himself to be during the Dance - doesn't reject what is offered to him. And Rhaenyra very clearly showed that she was interested in him.
 
The other hint provide the men Cole attacks during the wedding tourney - Harwin Strong and Joffrey Lonmouth. Harwin is an understandable target considering that he apparently dishonored the Princess of Dragonstone by beginning an affair with her (although the better explanation would be that he was jealous), but the poor Joffrey Lonmouth shouldn't have raised Cole's ire since he was just Laenor's paramour. That is where Mushroom's tale makes no sense. Cole would only have tried to hurt Laenor if he did not want Rhaenyra to marry him - which makes only sense if he wanted her for himself in a romantic and sexual way, presumably as his legal wife. Criston wouldn't have had a reason to loath Rhaenyra or Laenor if he was actually abhorred by her attempts to seduce him since that would mean he did not love Rhaenyra in any romantic way - and thus he would have been perfectly okay with an arranged marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra.
 
What remains unclear is whether Rhaenyra and Criston ever actually consummated their relationship. Criston clearly was in love with her but may have restrained himself to not break his vows as a Kingsguard - a fact that could explain why Rhaenyra had allowed herself to be seduced by Daemon earlier).
My guess is that Criston either confessed his deep love to Rhaenyra in the night they had their break-up (if she did not already know all that) and/or he asked her for her hand in marriage, begging her to give up her claim to the Iron Throne and join him as a poor sellsword in exile. And Rhaenyra was not exactly ... enthusiastic about his whole proposal. Instead, she made it clear to Cole that she was the Princess of Dragonstone, the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne of Westeros, a woman of the blood of the dragon who would never give up her rightful place in life. She did not love or would ever share the bed with Laenor Velaryon, but she would, of course, marry him. Her counter offer would have been to make Criston her (semi-)official paramour and the father of her children, but she categorically refused to run away or marry a man born as low as he was. That was then the end of the whole thing.
 
We know that Harwin Strong had no scruples becoming the paramour of the Princess of Dragonstone, but he is still the biggest mystery in this whole story. Did he actually love Rhaenyra or was only interested in power? Did Rhaenyra love him or was he just a convenient (and attractive and well-built) sperm-donor for her sons? What was his endgame, and the endgame of his father, who was Viserys' Hand and, presumably, the brain behind the whole affair? Did Lord Lyonel and his elder son aim at the Iron Throne by eventually marrying Harwin to Rhaenyra - say, in the wake of Laenor's sudden death?
 
The question who murdered whom later on is still an open question. Only Laena seems to have died of a natural death.

Very good analysis.
But I am still confused that if rhaenyna was sleeping with daemon and begged her father to marry him, how come Cole would believe she would agree to elope with him? Apparently her heart was with Daemon.
Cole's talk happened after Daemon left. He should know everything about daemon and rhaenyna.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Very good analysis.
But I am still confused that if rhaenyna was sleeping with daemon and begged her father to marry him, how come Cole would believe she would agree to elope with him? Apparently her heart was with Daemon.
Cole's talk happened after Daemon left. He should know everything about daemon and rhaenyna.

 

We don't know if that is truth.

 

As far as we know, maybe Cole did have sex with her and someone whitewashed the whole thing as "he wanted to elope with her because he respected her... he's after all, a knight".

 

He's presented as a guy who wanted to do "the right thing" while Daemon "dishonoured" her. How we know it wasn't the other way around? She seduced Daemon while Cole was the pushy one?

[Lord Varys]

Cole may have been cross with Rhaenyra over the whole 'Daemon thing' but that was about 1-2 years before, and he may have been able to cool down somewhat. Perhaps Rhaenyra painted it as 'rape' and he believed her? Or - if they actually had had a sexual relationship for years (not completely unlikely) they may just have had a bad time and Rhaenyra looked for fun with her dashing uncle. It is really difficult to say which man she desired more, Criston or Daemon? My guess is that she may actually have loved Criston more as a man while being crystal clear that she would never marry him whereas Daemon was pretty much everything she wanted in a man she would marry (Targaryen blood, the right amount of strength, danger, and cruelty). Harwin is in the same category - a strong and manly man, and considering Daemon's nature and Criston's later deeds it is not unlikely that he, too, had a darker side we don't know yet.

 

As to 'Criston the White Knight':

 

I really see him as a knightly version of Littlefinger. Humble origins, very great talent in his field, ambition, and a certain ruthlessness - and his downfall is going to be a woman. But Mushroom's tale doesn't have to be seen as an attempt to whitewash/excuse Cole and slander Rhaenyra. Actually, her not stepping as low as having an affair with Daemon restores something of her honor whereas the other story makes her actually committing adultery. And the whole story that Criston Cole may have been 'as chaste as an old septa' doesn't sound like something Mushroom's contemporaries would believe if it went completely against his reputation while he was still alive. The man wasn't only Rhaenyra's favorite, but the favorite of every woman at court.

[purple-eyes]

Cole may have been cross with Rhaenyra over the whole 'Daemon thing' but that was about 1-2 years before, and he may have been able to cool down somewhat. Perhaps Rhaenyra painted it as 'rape' and he believed her? Or - if they actually had had a sexual relationship for years (not completely unlikely) they may just have had a bad time and Rhaenyra looked for fun with her dashing uncle. It is really difficult to say which man she desired more, Criston or Daemon? My guess is that she may actually have loved Criston more as a man while being crystal clear that she would never marry him whereas Daemon was pretty much everything she wanted in a man she would marry (Targaryen blood, the right amount of strength, danger, and cruelty). Harwin is in the same category - a strong and manly man, and considering Daemon's nature and Criston's later deeds it is not unlikely that he, too, had a darker side we don't know yet.
 
As to 'Criston the White Knight':
 
I really see him as a knightly version of Littlefinger. Humble origins, very great talent in his field, ambition, and a certain ruthlessness - and his downfall is going to be a woman. But Mushroom's tale doesn't have to be seen as an attempt to whitewash/excuse Cole and slander Rhaenyra. Actually, her not stepping as low as having an affair with Daemon restores something of her honor whereas the other story makes her actually committing adultery. And the whole story that Criston Cole may have been 'as chaste as an old septa' doesn't sound like something Mushroom's contemporaries would believe if it went completely against his reputation while he was still alive. The man wasn't only Rhaenyra's favorite, but the favorite of every woman at court.

The only thing we can say sure is that rhaenyra loved old man. Both Cole and daemon were around 15 years older than her. :)

[Lord Varys]

Well, that is no surprise. And not really 'old men' in the Elaena Targaryen sense (Alyn Velaryon & Ossifer Plumm)...

[purple-eyes]

Well, that is no surprise. And not really 'old men' in the Elaena Targaryen sense (Alyn Velaryon & Ossifer Plumm)...

And daemon and netty!
49 and 16! This is a challenge.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'm inclined to believe that Daemon and Netty may have been father and daughter. That would make things much more intriguing - either with or without sexual relationship.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm guessing your ex-girlfriend didn't have dragons.

No, just the temper of one