Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Is also turned him into a vegetable, but something like keeping a persons mind intact isn't important, so long as they're head, lol

A vegetable does not walk around, eat food put to his lips, or seem to enjoy the sunshine.  Drogo was not a vegetable.  Drogo was in a non-communicative and drastically weakened state, but there was no reason to believe he would not complete his recovery.

It would be funny if the healing would have made Drogo even stronger than before (like that of Victarion) but Dany prevented that by smothering him before he had the strength to resist.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think Joffrey tried to kill Bran more out of an attempt to get a pat on the head by his "dad", rather than "help" Bran.
Bran did have a chance to survive, but Drogo was beyond help.

 

Bran had a chance to survive because the assassination attempt failed. Drogo was beyond help for a certainty the moment he stoped breathing; we can't know if he'd have a chance to recover had he been allowed to live.

 

Yes, Dany is not Joff. The reasoning used is the same, though.

[sifth]

A vegetable does not walk around, eat food put to his lips, or seem to enjoy the sunshine.  Drogo was not a vegetable.  Drogo was in a non-communicative and drastically weakened state, but there was no reason to believe he would not complete his recovery .

My cousin has been in a state very similar to Drogo's for nearly 5 years, with no signs of change.

This is with modern medicine.

Yea, Drogo would have been back on his feet in a few months, lol

[Lady Sharya]

One difference between MMD and Tyrion, is MMD had time to think and calm herself down. Tyrion heard all of this ground shaking stuff, and answered without thinking his answer fully through.
MMD could have said anything out of anger that would have hurt Dany, without claiming guilt that would have the same, if not more, of an effect. Yet she claimed guilt, because she was most likely guilty and wanted to gloat about it because "she viewed herself as a hero"

Uh, no there are a few more differences: Tyrion wasn't currently held as a slave, recently gang raped along with her other captives, witnessed her home & temple destroyed and most of the residents slaughtered.;) me thinks Tyrion didn't have quite so much to be angry about.

No, I'd say the false confession was effective. The writer used this monologue with Tyrion and used it with Mirri to express their anger despite their innocence.

If Mirri is guilty of intentionally causing Drogo's state or Rhaego death, what did she do? We can talk about her motive, her state of mind ext., but we must have some actual wrong actions that led to the consequences, as opposed to the wrong actions of Drogo, Dany, the Bloodriders& Jorah. It's a simple case of cause and effect.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Uh, no there are a few more differences: Tyrion wasn't currently held as a slave, recently gang raped along with her other captives, witnessed her home & temple destroyed and most of the residents slaughtered. ;) me thinks Tyrion didn't have quite so much to be angry about.

Not to mention, that he was actually being rescued at that point, while Mirri was about to die a horrible death no matter what.

[Lady Sharya]

I do not hold this against Dany, and I really do understand why she killed vegetable Drogo, but on the other hand it must be noted that this was the reasoning behind Bran's assassination attempt, initiated by Joffery.
 
Bran however had the chance to survive, and he recovered, and he still wanted to live no matter what some people believed, that he'd be better off dead than live as a cripple.

Ouch.:o I was going to agree that Dany had justification for giving Drogo "mercy," but since you point out Bran's situation.....Idk. I have the show image in my head. Does it state that Drogo was awake & comatosed?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Ouch. :o I was going to agree that Dany had justification for giving Drogo "mercy," but since you point out Bran's situation.....Idk. I have the show image in my head. Does it state that Drogo was awake & comatosed?

 

Drogo was not comatosed, but he was in a vegetative state. Reminded me of Twin Peaks Leo Johnson's early situation (for those of us old enough to have watched the series :)).

[Taenqyrhae]

Ouch. :o I was going to agree that Dany had justification for giving Drogo "mercy," but since you point out Bran's situation.....Idk. I have the show image in my head. Does it state that Drogo was awake & comatosed?

In the book, Drogo is not comatose or a vegetable.  He can stand and walk.  He can be led from one place to another, and they say that he seems to like it when they take him outside in the sun. He will chew and swallow food that is put to his lips.  But Dany can't give him a boner so she assumes Drogo is gone forever and kills him.

[Taenqyrhae]

My cousin has been in a state very similar to Drogo's for nearly 5 years, with no signs of change.

This is with modern medicine.

Yea, Drogo would have been back on his feet in a few months, lol

Drogo wasn't in that state for a few years, he was only in it a few days.

Anecdote meet anecdote - my mother was in a state where she was unresponsive and did not talk for quite some time.  She made a full recovery within two months.

[sifth]

Drogo wasn't in that state for a few years, he was only in it a few days.

Anecdote meet anecdote - my mother was in a state where she was unresponsive and did not talk for quite some time.  She made a full recovery within two months.

 

Congrats, but guess what, not everyone recovers from a vegetative state. I'd argue even fewer would without modern medical help.

[Lady Sharya]

Not to mention, that he was actually being rescued at that point, while Mirri was about to die a horrible death no matter what.

Yeah, I think the timing of when Mirri said those things to Dany is the primary reason she said it. She was going to be held responsible for the results of what happened and she knew it. Dany aside, we're talking about the Dothraki here with their superstitions and limited tec knowledge.;) I honestly don't understand why it seems hard to believe that she would finally lose her temper and want to hurt Dany after all she had done to help despite what was done to her & her people.

[LmL]

Either MMD is more powerful than BR without having a weirnet, and yet suspicuously does all the right medical actions needed to heal the wound properly... just because.

I am just not following your logic here. I don't even know what you mean by saying she is more powerful than Bloodraven. She was doing some very powerful shadow magic, that's for sure... I don't know what else I am proposing that's especially far fetched. A poisoned poultice? That's would be easy peasy lemon squeezy for her. Could those shadow spells have affected Dany right outside the tent? I don't see why not - we don't know much about those spells. The "you knew the cost" line implies there was a trade of life energy, Rhaego for Drogo, but it was essentially sabotaged (hypothesis) by MMD because she chose a spell that would leave Drogo a vegetable.

So far I I am not seeing anything "more powerful than Bloodraven magic."
 

Or she did her best, put her anger aside, warned her, gave instructions, saw it all being thrown in the wind by fools, and then suddenly get blamed for doing the first, by the girl who promised to set her free if she did what she advized against, and knows her life is over. And then she finally gives in to the anger that has been building and set aside. And she lashes out.

I mean... maybe, it's possible. Doesn't really ring true for me, but we aren't inside her head so we are just extrapolating from events. But if she forgave them for raping and murdering her entire village, it doesn't make sense for her to then reverse course because they didn't follow her directions. Rape and murder seems a lot worse. If she forgave them all that, I don't think it's makes sense to say that not following instructions was somehow the last straw. See what I am getting at?

And no I don't regard MMD as a hero for lashing out at Dany for it. I understand it, but MMD lashes out to the one who didn't hurt her and her people, like Dany lashes out at MMD who didn't harm Drogo or Rhaego.

I see your analogy, although I disagree of course about MMD harming Rhaego and Drogo.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Congrats, but guess what, not everyone recovers from a vegetative state. I'd argue even fewer would without modern medical help.

Why do people keep saying he was in a vegetative state?  He was not.  He was conscious.  He could respond to stimuli.  That is by definition not a vegetative state.

My Mom wasn't in a vegetative state - she was ILL, she was weakened by trauma, she hadn't fully recovered from her incident.  She got better.  Usually, people do.

[sifth]

Why do people keep saying he was in a vegetative state?  He was not.  He was conscious.  He could respond to stimuli.  That is by definition not a vegetative state.

My Mom wasn't in a vegetative state - she was ILL, she was weakened by trauma, she hadn't fully recovered from her incident.  She got better.  Usually, people do.

 

My cousin can open his eyes. If you put food in his mouth he'll eat it. He can't walk on his own, but can move his arms at times.

 

Guess what, doctors consider this a vegetative state. He's also shown little signs of recovery for nearly 5 years.

 

Regardless of what you want to call it, I'd argue fewer people would recover from it without modern medicine.

[Taenqyrhae]

I am just not following your logic here. I don't even know what you mean by saying she is more powerful than Bloodraven. 

I am saying she would be more powerful than Bloodraven because your idea would imply that she either made Daenerys, Drogo, Jorah, and the bloodrider who attacked Dany do the things that they did that led to the outcome, or knew with unnatural knowledge of their character that they would do exactly what was needed.

She did not make Drogo agree to let her treat him.  She did not make Drogo take off the poultice.  She did not make Drogo cover the wound with mud, making it a place where gangrene could grow more easily.  She did not make Drogo take milk of the poppy.  She did not make Dany choose to use blood magic to bring Drogo back.  She did not make Drogo's bloodrider hit Dany and start her premature labor.  She did not make Jorah carry Dany into the tent.  In fact, for most of these things, Mirri tried to convince them to do the OPPOSITE.  And if everybody did what Mirri said, if they took her advice about the magic solution being worse than an easy death, things would have been totally different.  Or if everybody totally ignored Mirri and made other choices than what they made (if Drogo refused to let her help, for instance) then things would have been totally different.  If Jorah had prevented Dany from being struck down by Drogo's bloodrider, she would not have begun labor.

ALL these choices, none of them made by Mirri, led to what happened.  So, either Mirri was NOT responsible for what happened, or she is a powerful mage who controlled all those around her to make things happen the way she wanted them to happen.  Which doesn't make much sense as I've already shown how Mirri could have killed Drogo and Rhaego with much less trouble and personal accountability if she was actually trying to.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

My cousin can open his eyes. If you put food in his mouth he'll eat it. He can't walk on his own, but can move his arms at times.

 

Guess what, doctors consider this a vegetative state. He's also shown little signs of recovery for nearly 5 years.

 

Regardless of what you want to call it, I'd argue fewer people would recover from it without modern medicine.

Well, if your cousin could get up and walk around, being led by the hand, do you think his state might be considered something different?

You are comparing someone who is bedridden and can sometimes move his arms to a person who could walk around while being led by the hand.  Read the definition of vegetative state.  People in that state do not walk around.

What your cousin has, that you are describing, is a Persistent Vegetative State, which is what happens when someone remains in that state for a certain period of time (3 months in the USA, 6 in the UK).  But many people spontaneously emerge from a vegetative state after a few weeks…which is what happened with my mother.

[sifth]

 

Well, if your cousin could get up and walk around, being led by the hand, do you think his state might be considered something different?

You are comparing someone who is bedridden and can sometimes move his arms to a person who could walk around while being led by the hand.  Read the definition of vegetative state.  People in that state do not walk around.

What your cousin has, that you are describing, is a Persistent Vegetative State, which is what happens when someone remains in that state for a certain period of time (3 months in the USA, 6 in the UK).  But many people spontaneously emerge from a vegetative state after a few weeks…which is what happened with my mother.

 

 

Point is, not everyone recovers from it. I'm happy your mom was one of the lucky ones.

 

Drago could not move on his own, only when guided by others. If left alone, he would simply look at the sky until he starved to death. If that's not considered a vegetative state, it's pretty dam close.

[Mithras]

Oh for FS.
"This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hair as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and me, and the son I was to give him."
She gave him the gift of mercy. He wasn't Drogo anymore. Drogo would want to die, that's a simple fact. I would want to die if I was living like that.

 

Bran wanted to be a knight. Would you like pillowing him too?

[Mithras]

Drogo was not comatosed, but he was in a vegetative state. Reminded me of Twin Peaks Leo Johnson's early situation (for those of us old enough to have watched the series :)).

 

AHAHAHAHHA

[Taenqyrhae]

 

Point is, not everyone recovers from it. I'm happy your mom was one of the lucky ones.

 

Drago could not move on his own, only when guided by others. If left alone, he would simply look at the sky until he starved to death. If that's not considered a vegetative state, it's pretty dam close.

I think if your cousin was able to stand up and walk, his doctors would probably think it greatly improved his odds of recovering and would call for a new diagnosis.  My point is, comparing someone who is clearly not in a vegetative state and has only been the way he is for a few days to somebody who is in a real vegetative state and has been that way for years is pointless.  It's not the same thing.  Now, if Drogo was no longer able to stand up or walk, and if he did not show any signs of improvement over several months, then there might be some justification for the comparison.