Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[LmL]

Depend on who are you talking?
 
Those who have never wished ANYONE dead, please, stone me now. Because it's human nature. I have definitely wished a lot of people suffer terrible fates.
 
In any way, that is not my point.
 
Was MMD justified in wishing revenge? No one denies it. She was not even obligated to see Dany as a "saviour" as she wanted to be. Had she been dreaming every night of her and her baby dead would have been natural and understandable.
 
Is ok. for us to feel good about Cersei's walk of shame? No one denies she got it coming after all of her actions. As readers, we feel she finally gets her comeuppance. But it's a cruel punishment. We, as readers, feel she's been punished for the things WE KNOW she has done. Even Cersei feels that way (as she sees Ned, Robert, Arya, etc). But that wasn't the motivation of the HS: the HS wanted to humiliate her and put her on her place. That's why it's hard to enjoy it. Because he did it for all the wrong reasons.
 
She is been punished, in text, for being a woman.
 
Dany didn't order Drogo to go and take slaves. If we can blame her for anything, is for the fact she didn't understand what an invasion to Westeros implied. That's what changes  her as a character: that's the moment she realises what slavery really means, and that's why she later start a campaign to try to abolish slavery. That is why she tries to save Eroeh and MMD. Because that's the only thing she can do about it to rectify it. She has no more power.
 
And then, she aborts. Whatever caused this, it happened to her. And MMD gloated on it.
 
What if Dany had been instead, being raped? Was ok. for MMD to say "I'm glad I had a part on it because I was also raped and you deserved it"?
 
What would be the position of this board had Dany had been raped instead of miscarrying? Would MMD's words would also feel powerful and earned?
 
A rape is an event committed in your body against your will
A miscarriage or an abortion is an event that happened in your body against your will.
 
MMD is placing herself in a way in which she puts her actions as causing such abortion. She puts herself in the position of being the one who committed a crime against another woman's body, something that someone did to her.
 
A rape is not the only terrible thing that can happen to a woman's body. Losing a child can be equally devastating. And it has been for Dany, as we've seen through three books. MMD celebrates it as much as many other posters celebrate her words. And she celebrates too the fact she cannot have more children anymore: she celebrates the mutilation of a woman's body because she assumes any child of her will cause harm.
 
A CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST THE BODY OF A WOMAN GETS CELEBRATED AND JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE SUCH WOMAN.
 
Maybe I should comment, for the Nth time, that one time my government ordered the sterilization of 300.000 Andean women and the people who, up to this day in 2015, keeps justifying this because "those women could have never been able to raise those children properly: they would have ended up being thieves/terrorists".
 
Both MMD and Dany are victims: they both were very much treated like slaves, and their bodies were objects of trade by others. MMD tried to get out of that victimhood through other woman's humiliation and mutilation.
 
Honestly, I dunno what you meant by your question. If you meant Dany, she hasn't yet killed any children and say "aaaah... I did this and you totally deserve it!!!". She gets blamed for all the things she feels she's right to do but she hasn't yet done: she hasn't gone and killed Arya or Sansa because "your father was an usurper!!". I can also go and say I want to kill a lot of people I dislike but they can jail me for.

I just wanted to take a minute to applaud the moral clarity here, JonCon. Agree with every point your making here. Some people simply lack the nuance to dissect all the different motivations, or simply don't choose to utilize it. I feel like anyone who's paying attention to the books will understand that very little is black and white in ASOIAF, and every "wrong action" still needs to be examined for motivation to really understand what happened. In any situation, there is usually plenty of blame to go around... It's kind of asinine to say "it was all _____'s fault, period end of story." That's just not the story George has written.

[Lady Sharya]

Can I just say that anyone who wants to claim that MMD did everything she could to save Drogo in good faith after he raped and burned everyone she ever knew is attributing a state of grace to MMD that borders on sainthood. I find that a little hard to believe. Again, short of Jesus Christ himself, who has that much forgiveness for someone like Drogo, after what he did?
How could she NOT seek revenge, given the opportunity? Isn't that far more of a stretch than the idea that MMD's shadow magic was already affecting Dany outside the tent?

The question isn't how could she NOT seek revenge, the question is how did she? What did she actually do to cause either of their deaths? Their deaths were caused by Drogo, Dany & Jorah NOT heeding her advise.

[sifth]

 
It certainly did happen:

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.

 
Unless we call this too "reverse psychology manipulation" and attribute her with omniscience and omnipotence, in which case she would have used her amazing skills to manipulate the Dothraki to leave her alone, maybe, just maybe?

You mean in place of a clear answer. "I can save you husbands body, but not his mind".

[LmL]

The question isn't how could she NOT seek revenge, the question is how did she? What did she actually do to cause either of their deaths? Their deaths were caused by Drogo, Dany & Jorah NOT heeding her advise.

What did MMD do to cause their deaths?

Uh, shadow magic? The shadow magic that killed Rhaego and left Drogo a vegetable?

ETA: gotta go to work, it's been fun, seems like this thread will be on page 17 when I get off. Good discussion, good OP. Cheers everyone.

[sweetsunray]

Yeah.... I feel you... But not quite. Again, her speech to Dany afterwards was no Jesus or Ghandi rap. That's was a "see, know you know what it's like" and "I'm glad your child is dead, because he would have been a monster" speech. It doesn't fit with the unconditional forgiveness of your rapists and the murderers of your people.

 

Either MMD is more powerful than BR without having a weirnet, and yet suspicuously does all the right medical actions needed to heal the wound properly... just because.

 

Or she did her best, put her anger aside, warned her, gave instructions, saw it all being thrown in the wind by fools, and then suddenly get blamed for doing the first, by the girl who promised to set her free if she did what she advized against, and knows her life is over. And then she finally gives in to the anger that has been building and set aside. And she lashes out. And no I don't regard MMD as a hero for lashing out at Dany for it. I understand it, but MMD lashes out to the one who didn't hurt her and her people, like Dany lashes out at MMD who didn't harm Drogo or Rhaego. 

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

And yet Dany on a number of occasions dany had to be reminded that Mirri was a slave. Even by Mirri herself.
Dany didn't think of MMD as her slave. Period.
(But I can already see where you stand in this matter from your user name and avatar).

Just not on the occasion immediately before she gave the order where she bartered MMD's freedom for her Moon and Stars disgusting life.

[sweetsunray]

What did MMD do to cause their deaths?

Uh, shadow magic? The shadow magic that killed Rhaego and left Drogo a vegetable?

ETA: gotta go to work, it's been fun, seems like this thread will be on page 17 when I get off. Good discussion, good OP. Cheers everyone.

 

And if she hadn't used shadow magic, Drogo would be dead in great pain of blood poisoning, and Dany's belly cut open to kill her child. Drogo and Rhaego were doomed the moment those sham-healers put mud on Drogo's chest. That's the whole point. MMD didn't do anything that was worse than what would have happened if MMD had done no shadow magic.

[Mithras]

Who else agrees with me that the new Drogo was a better person?

[Tucu]

Who else agrees with me that the new Drogo was a better person?

He was in peace. Reminds me of the Gravedigger.

[sweetsunray]

Yet in the end, she showed no peaceful traits.
A women who said the stuff MMD said, and did the stuff MMD claimed to do, cannot be described as "peaceful" in my opinion.

 

Hmmm, also completely analogues to Cat, saying it should have been Jon, but reasoning for peace and releasing Jaime for peace.

 

No, in the end she showed no peaceful traits. But they are words, not actions. Were they peaceful words? No. In the end, she used the words of the axe, instead of the other cheek.

[Taenqyrhae]

So now it depends... Only people who someone likes are capable to say whatever they want without any retribution because of what? Cat wished Jon to die, MMD did the same and taunt Dany with this death but in the text we have nothing to prove that she actually did something, I see no difference.

Cat wishing Jon to die was a show only thing.

[Mithras]

Cat wishing Jon to die was a show only thing.

 

Nope. 

 

He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

“Yes?” he said.

“It should have been you,” she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

[sweetsunray]

Who else agrees with me that the new Drogo was a better person?

 

I'm not a fan of mind-numbed states, but the new Drogo did not seem in pain or unhappy. Of course there was barely any Drogo around to be unhappy. But who are we or Dany to suddenly say it's not a life worth living for someone else? There are plenty of catatonic people, people in a coma, people with locked in syndrome, people who are born with very limited mental abilities (I mean really limited)... Can we truly decide for these people that's not a life worth living? It's for us personally to only decide it for ourselves, and make a living will about it, not to decide for others.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

 

Nope. 

 

He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

“Yes?” he said.

“It should have been you,” she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

It was a long walk down to the yard.

 

You mean "Yup".  She does not wish Jon dead in that scene.  She says "It should have been you".  That's not the same thing as wishing someone would die, even if Bran was dead in this scene, and he wasn't.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So now it depends... Only people who someone likes are capable to say whatever they want without any retribution because of what? Cat wished Jon to die, MMD did the same and taunt Dany with this death but in the text we have nothing to prove that she actually did something, I see no difference.

 

MMD didn't just "taunt" Dany. She took the responsibility for it.

 

It matters little if she did or not, at least, I personally don't care.

 

After Charlie Hebdo shootings, many people who claimed themselves religious applauded the act. They said "they had it coming for insulting my religion". A religion, I'm sure, it's all about forgivenesses and peace. They didn't shoot these people, nor were involved.  But their words endorsed the action.

 

This is the image MMD sells of herself. And Dany, the one people believe to be a criminal mastermind of evilness, totally bought it. She gained her trust knowing one day she would stab her on the back. Did she do it? It doesn't matter. She said "I'm glad this horrible tragedy happened to you and I'm glad I took a part".

 

Dany has wished the deaths of the "usurper's dogs"? Yes. She has all the reasons to want the "usurpers" and their families death, as much as MMD had reasons to want HER dead. Yet, she has gotten to feel sorry for Robert Baratheon himself after she saw how the woman fighter died.

[Lady Sharya]

What did MMD do to cause their deaths?
Uh, shadow magic? The shadow magic that killed Rhaego and left Drogo a vegetable?

Danny was warned against black magic, she ordered Mirri to perform it anyway.

Dany was warned not to enter the tent, she was brought in anyway.

How is it Mirri's fault her instructions were not followed. Again, what did Mirri DO to cause these deaths?

Motive doesn't make Mirri guilty of causing their deaths..nor does opportunity...not does a false confession. She has to have actually intentionally caused their deaths.

[Mithras]

 

MMD didn't just "taunt" Dany. She took the responsibility for it.

 

It matters little if she did or not, at least, I personally don't care.

 

After Charlie Hebdo shootings, many people who claimed themselves religious applauded the act. They said "they had it coming for insulting my religion". A religion, I'm sure, it's all about forgivenesses and peace. They didn't shoot these people, nor were involved.  But their words endorsed the action.

 

This is the image MMD sells of herself. And Dany, the one people believe to be a criminal mastermind of evilness, totally bought it. She gained her trust knowing one day she would stab her on the back. Did she do it? It doesn't matter. She said "I'm glad this horrible tragedy happened to you and I'm glad I took a part".

 

Dany has wished the deaths of the "usurper's dogs"? Yes. She has all the reasons to want the "usurpers" and their families death, as much as MMD had reasons to want HER dead. Yet, she has gotten to feel sorry for Robert Baratheon himself after she saw how the woman fighter died.

 

Did you miss the part where Tyrion "confessed" murdering Joffrey to Jaime?

[Lady Sharya]

Who else agrees with me that the new Drogo was a better person?

:agree:

[Mithras]

I'm not a fan of mind-numbed states, but the new Drogo did not seem in pain or unhappy. Of course there was barely any Drogo around to be unhappy. But who are we or Dany to suddenly say it's not a life worth living for someone else? There are plenty of catatonic people, people in a coma, people with locked in syndrome, people who are born with very limited mental abilities (I mean really limited)... Can we truly decide for these people that's not a life worth living? It's for us personally to only decide it for ourselves, and make a living will about it, not to decide for others.

 

:agree:

 

Even if people exonerate Dany on Rhaego's death, there is no way to justify how Dany murdererd Drogo in the end. 

[Taenqyrhae]

 

I'm not a fan of mind-numbed states, but the new Drogo did not seem in pain or unhappy. Of course there was barely any Drogo around to be unhappy. But who are we or Dany to suddenly say it's not a life worth living for someone else? There are plenty of catatonic people, people in a coma, people with locked in syndrome, people who are born with very limited mental abilities (I mean really limited)... Can we truly decide for these people that's not a life worth living? It's for us personally to only decide it for ourselves, and make a living will about it, not to decide for others.

We don't even know that this was his permanent state, MMD implied it was, but at this point she knew that nothing she did would save her.  People in permanent vegetative states don't walk around, chew and swallow food, allow themselves to be led by the hand.

Drogo was going through post-trauma convalescence and very well could have been back in the saddle if he had been given time to recover.  My mother almost died in the hospital.  For a long time afterwards, she seemed aware of those around her, but mostly unresponsive, did not talk.  After a couple of weeks, she started being more reactive, and eventually she was talking again, and she made a full recovery.  

Not that I am unhappy that Dany killed Drogo - but the funny thing is, she does the best things for the worst reasons (murders a tyrant in his sickbed because she loves him) and the worst things for the best reasons (has children murdered and tortured to protect her "children" from being enslaved).