R+L=D and B+A=J

[Rickyhunt]

I want to know what the evidence is please. I personally believe that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna son because it makes the most sense to me. I want to know what the evidence is of Daenerys being Rhaegar and Lyanna son and Jon Being Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark son. I go with Brandon Stark over Ned because I don't think there is any Way Ned is his father even the actor Sean Bean who played Ned confirmed this.

The only thing I can think of is Dany and her constant red door dreams and When Ned Was in Kings landing he kept having the dreams of Lyanna and the promise which doesn't make much sense because Jon is at the Wall and is relatively safe whereas Dany was about to be killed by King Robert obviously if Dany was the daughter of Lyanna he would fail in that promise.

Is there any other evidence?

if This proves true does it hurt the story?

I feel like R+L=J is so widely accepted that people would be disappointed.

[Rippounet]

There's no evidence for R+L=D & B+A=J. None.

 

The theory was only born because of small inconsistencies in the chronology we have and small troubling hints within the text that seem to suggest there is another mystery hiding in there.

 

R+L=J remains widely acepted.

 

But, to make it simple, maybe "there's something about Dany." It could be that people are just overthinking things while waiting for the next book, but there's still no doubt that Ashara Dayne matters, and that Martin intentionally left her death and her child as something to ponder. Also, as you pointed out, Ned seemed to know a lot.

 

I'm starting to think that the text leaves open the possibility that Dany is Ned and Ashara's daughter. I'm not stating this as a theory (yet), but I think it fits the chronology remarkably well, explains some textual elements we have, and has an interesting narrative purpose.

Ned would be haunted by his promise to Lyanna because he promised her to raise Jon as his own son. That meant he had to leave his daughter behind with the Dornish ; he couldn't possibly pretend to have two bastards. This is the "cost" he paid for the promise.

Of course, it's slightly crackpot, and one which many people don't like. But this is an example of what the text allows, and even (in several passages), suggests. I'll see if I find the time to open a thread compiling the textual elements and the chronology allowing for this possibility.

[Mladen]

No proof. Just some people like to imagine they think "outside the box".

[OuttaOldtown]

No proof. Just some people like to imagine they think "outside the box".

You can think "outside the box" and still use actual clues, not just your imagination. These have no foundation..

[ASOIAF_Ali]

The only things I've heard are just small, not evidence just people grasping at straws kind of things like the house with the red door that Dany remembers not being in Braavos because of the lemon tree, and Jon Snow not looking like a targ ( :lol: ). I'd be the first to admit that I don't particularly want R+L=J to be true because I like the idea of Jon just being Ned's bastard and like him the way he is, but I think it's pretty much a given since there is no real evidence (that I've seen) against it. 

[Ygrain]

None and none. 

 

There are indeed clues for B+A but their child is not Jon, and Dany was born long after Lyanna died.

[VenezuelanLord]

The only evidence towards A+Stark= Dany or Jon is the fact that Ashara went missing, she committed suicide yer her body wasn't found, i believe in R+L=J , but i have entertained the thought regarding those theories, the dont fit the the timeline.. I think that's the main problem, the only one to fit the timeline of RR is R+L

[Rippounet]

There are indeed clues for B+A but their child is not Jon, and Dany was born long after Lyanna died.

 

Ygrain, I'm a bit curious. Why B+A and not Ned+A? B+A has all kinds of chronological problems that N+A doesn't. Doesn't the text has far more clues for N+A than B+A?

 

[Joan Jett]

Preston Jacobs did a video including this theory. He kind of attributed Ned's anger towards the idea of assassinating Dany to it. Also Ned's "broken promises" quote.

[Mladen]

 

Ygrain, I'm a bit curious. Why B+A and not Ned+A? B+A has all kinds of chronological problems that N+A doesn't. Doesn't the text has far more clues for N+A than B+A?

 

 

The problem is that you have all those Targ connections to Jon...

[TRLR]

Preston Jacobs did a video including this theory. He kind of attributed Ned's anger towards the idea of assassinating Dany to it. Also Ned's "broken promises" quote.

I never cared enough to watch his videos but Ned gave Cersei and her children an out despite his personal feelings towards Jaime and the Lannisters in general. His anger towards the idea of assassinating Dany isn't at all unusual. 

[Rippounet]

The problem is that you have all those Targ connections to Jon...

 

But I'm not talking about Jon. :)
 

[Mladen]

 

But I'm not talking about Jon. :)
 

 

If you talk about Dany then it makes even less sense.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain, I'm a bit curious. Why B+A and not Ned+A? B+A has all kinds of chronological problems that N+A doesn't. Doesn't the text has far more clues for N+A than B+A?

Depends on what you interpret as clues. People saying it =/= clue, rather a red herring. There is even an opposite opinion (Harwin), not to mention that it would be heavily OOC for Ned and is not shown in his thoughts at all in any way. And then there is Barristan's thought about young girls prefering fire men over mud men, in the same book where Brandon is presented as a book case of fire man perfectly willing to deflower a noble maiden and not marry her.

The only issue with B+A is Barristan's thought that Ashara committed suicide "soon after" her child was stillborn, which doesn't fit with conception at HH, but we don't really know if the affair somehow continued or if the hindsight of +15 years makes a year or so "soon after"

 

The problem is that you have all those Targ connections to Jon...

No-one is talking Jon here :-)

[aryagonnakill#2]

GRRM said that Jon was born within 2 weeks of the sack of Kings Landing, and that Dany was born 8-9 months later.  Given Jaime's comment about Aerys raping Rhaela after burning Chelsted, the fact that Viserys thinks she is his sister, and that Darry thought she was his sister, and that she hatched dragons, makes it completely ridiculous in my mind to question her identity.  

[Consigliere]

There is no evidence for either theory. These theories get peddled as 'out-of-the-box thinking' but is actually a load of garbage.

R+L=D - So Dany, a confirmed Targ, is actually a secret Targ? Makes no sense.

B+A=J - Does not explain why Ned never tells Cat, or anyone for that matter.

[Rippounet]

Ok, not sure if this is the place to discuss it, but why the heck not...

 

Depends on what you interpret as clues. People saying it =/= clue, rather a red herring. There is even an opposite opinion (Harwin), not to mention that it would be heavily OOC for Ned and is not shown in his thoughts at all in any way. And then there is Barristan's thought about young girls prefering fire men over mud men, in the same book where Brandon is presented as a book case of fire man perfectly willing to deflower a noble maiden and not marry her.

The only issue with B+A is Barristan's thought that Ashara committed suicide "soon after" her child was stillborn, which doesn't fit with conception at HH, but we don't really know if the affair somehow continued or if the hindsight of +15 years makes a year or so "soon after"

Thanks for your answer.

Well, Ashara is certainly a red herring as Jon's mother. She could still be someone else's imho. Dany may be my pet theory at the moment, but other less extravagant possibilities remain.

As for the OOC, I think this argument doesn't work so well since Ned started courting Ashara at Harrenhal, at a time when he wasn't supposed to marry Catelyn. In fact, Harwin pretty much says so himself:

 

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

I would be careful about Barristan's thoughts, as they are both vague and definitely not objective. Certainly Brandon seems "the kind" to "disnohor" Ashara (based on Lady Dustin's experience), but whether or not this happened is something else. Barristan could even mistakenly believe it was Brandon, when we know from Meera that Ned was the once who danced with her. There's even the possibility (which I presented before) that Brandon did dishonor Ashara and that Ned proposed to marry Ashara to cover for his brother's mess. The idea that Ned and Ashara indeed had something going on is well supported by the text imho.

 

All in all, what I'm suggesting is that Ned could easily have seen Ashara again at some point after Harrehall. Martin himself stated that Ashara didn't remain in Starfall during the entire war ; we know that Ned went to Starfall himself to give back Dawn to the Daynes after the events at the ToJ. I'd say there is a strong possibility that Ned only ended his relationship with Ashara after his marriage to Catelyn (when he had to), and thus that maybe he was actually the father of her child, without necessarily compromising his honor (or at least, not too much).

 

The only thing standing in the way of this theory is that Barry believes Ashara had a stillborn daughter before committing suicide. But is he reliable? And even if he is, when did Ashara have this stillborn daughter exactly? Because Ashara survived the war and Baristan knows little about her whereabouts, it seems almost certain that she wasn't in KL with Elia during the sack. Thus, Ned would have seen Ashara and ended whatever they had after the Trident or after the Sack. And of course, the best moment for Ned to see Ashara was after lifting the siege on Storm's End, when the war was ended and they were both in the same geographical area.

 

You see where I'm going with this. If Ned saw Ashara "one last time" while he was looking for his sister in Dorne, then she could have fallen pregnant shortly before or after the ToJ. If the "stillborn daughter story" and/or her suicide were false (intended to cover up her pregnancy), she could have given birth... 8 or 9 months after Lyanna gave birth to Jon.

Now, why would they need to cover up Ashara's pregnancy so badly? Because Ned had already promised Lyanna to raise Jon as his son at the ToJ, and thus had a bastard already. The Dornish pretty much remained Targ loyalists long after the war, so anyone who knew about it all would have understood the need to protect Jon's identity. So Ned took Jon North while Ashara and her child remained in Dorne.

 

Is this too crackpot? Maybe, but something like this could explain a number of things. Even if my conclusion is wrong, I'd say something important began with Ashara at Harrenhal and only ended when Ned took the road back to Winterfell. Something big enough that we are only left with bits and pieces of the puzzle. And I don't think this is just about making R+L=J harder to guess. I'll welcome any evidence that this is not possible.

[Darth Sidious]

The only evidence towards A+Stark= Dany or Jon is the fact that Ashara went missing, she committed suicide yer her body wasn't found, i believe in R+L=J , but i have entertained the thought regarding those theories, the dont fit the the timeline.. I think that's the main problem, the only one to fit the timeline of RR is R+L

 

R + L = J does fit the timeline.  Aerys + Rhaella = Dany also fits.  And when you factor in that GM already confirmed that Jon was born 9 months prior to Dany, that would rule out the option of the two being twins. 

 

What I find surprising is the lack of theories concerning Brandon Stark's bastards.  The man kept his dick busy.  Unless he was shooting blanks, as we say here in America, that poon hound has to have some bastards running around in the north and in the riverlands.   Any bastard of his could range in age from 19 to about 25.  Darkstar Dayne misses the age window by a year or two, but there are sure to be other possibilities.

[Ygrain]

Thanks for your answer.

Well, Ashara is certainly a red herring as Jon's mother. She could still be someone else's imho. Dany may be my pet theory at the moment, but other less extravagant possibilities remain.

You're welcome :-)

 

My pet theory - not my invention, but I like it a lot - that Ashara's child is actually her supposed sister Allyria. Someone noted that if she is still only betrothed to Beric, and gossiping with the young Ned, she is probably still in her teens. There are even RL cases of parents passing off their grandchild as their child, to spare them the social stigma.

 

 

As for the OOC, I think this argument doesn't work so well since Ned started courting Ashara at Harrenhal, at a time when he wasn't supposed to marry Catelyn. In fact, Harwin pretty much says so himself:

It does, because Ned "never was the boy he was", and taking his pleasures "was not a sin that could be laid at Eddard's feet" (paraphrasing). Mind you: I'm not saying that he wouldn't fall for Ashara, I'm saying that it would be OOC for him to dishonour her by having sex with her. Harwin doesn't think anything happened between them in the first place, and his "no harm" argument is based solely on the fact that neither was promised, i.e. no vows would be broken, but doesn't take into account Ashara's lost virginity.

 

 

 

[Rippounet]

 

R + L = J does fit the timeline.  Aerys + Rhaella = Dany also fits.  And when you factor in that GM already confirmed that Jon was born 9 months prior to Dany, that would rule out the option of the two being twins.

 

The problem with this SSM is that since Rhaella is already pregnant when she leaves King's Landing (after the Trident and before the Sack), Dany should have been born about 6 months after Jon, not 8 or 9.