King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 We only hear of a lemon tree, but we don't know if it bore fruit. A lemon tree might grow in a cooler climate in a long summer without necessarily producing any lemons. It would still be a lemon tree, right? And how would someone who was max 5 (as that's when Darry died according to the app) know that a lemon tree without lemons is a lemon tree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because someone pointed out to her "look at the baby velociraptor sitting in your lemon tree, Princess". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOne-EyedHound Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Lets not. There's lemongate threads all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because someone pointed out to her "look at the baby velociraptor sitting in your lemon tree, Princess". Ah the old nonsensical "velociraptor" argument. I mean, do you people not realize that dinosaurs only don't exist on Earth because of extinction events? Not because of any climatogical changes and what not that would make present day Earth an incompatible environment for them? Dinosaurs exist in GRRM's world because nothing killed them off, not because the Sealord can control the weather to such a degree that a "velociraptor" can live in Braavos. A "velociraptor" in Braavos is simply any other animal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visenya the Dragon Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I see the lemon tree is symbolic for justice for her family. Dany is bitter about what happened to her family. In order for her to get to the red door(red keep, iron throne room) she will need to get justice for her family(lemon tree) . Dany will realise the house with the red door(home) is the same as Viserys dream of home, but not willing to do anything like Viserys to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellatrix Stark Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 After reading the Princess and the Queen a while back, and then doing a reread of the series, I had a wierd feeling that maybe Darry, Dany, and vicerys only pretended to vacate Dragonstone, but actually hid out there just like Aegon?, not sure of the name exactly and don't have the books with me, did while he healed up before going back to KL . Basically hiding right under the nose of who is looking for them. That's an interesting theory. Aegon II did hide out at Dragonstone but, essentially, no one was there so that's how he hid and healed in a year's time. I'm certain Dragonstone has hidden caves/ rooms that a baby could be hidden and no one would know. Good theory though, didn't think of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Ah the old nonsensical "velociraptor" argument. I mean, do you people not realize that dinosaurs only don't exist on Earth because of extinction events? Not because of any climatogical changes and what not that would make present day Earth an incompatible environment for them? Dinosaurs exist in GRRM's world because nothing killed them off, not because the Sealord can control the weather to such a degree that a "velociraptor" can live in Braavos. A "velociraptor" in Braavos is simply any other animal My (facetious) comment about the velociraptor had nothing to do with the climate, but rather that the patronage of the Sealord might allow Dany access to exotic plants and animals, either as a guest in his home or somewhere under his protection. I should have added "...your lemon tree from Prince Oberyn". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Except the books say that Dany didn't stay at the Sealord's palace The parchment was written in the Common Tongue. The queen unrolled it slowly, studying the seals and signatures. When she saw the name Ser Willem Darry, her heart beat a little faster. She read it over once, and then again. “May we know what it says, Your Grace?” asked Ser Barristan. “It is a secret pact,” Dany said, “made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper’s men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness.” She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. “The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne’s help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran’s daughter Arianne for his queen.” Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange? Dany says that the marriage pact was made while she lived in the house with the red door. Not while she lived in the Sealord's palace, after she just read a document declaring that the Sealord witnessed the marriage pact. She clearly separates the Sealord from the house with the red door. It's always been a nonsensical proposition, not only from the text having Dany not put them together after she's just presented with something bearing the Sealord's name, but from the lemon trees not living in Braavos, from the lack of hills and fields that Dany remembers playing in, a house clearly being different from a palace, from the servants robbing her after Willem died, and pretty much everything. The "Sealord's Palace theory" is a complete farce. It's never even remotely fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I have no skin in the Lemon Game, but if lemons are meant to have significance to Dany, either on a symbolic or foreshadowing level, then shouldn't said lemon references be made with frequency in Dany's own chapters rather than in the chapters of the Stark girls? I'm asking purely out of curiosity, as I keep seeing posts in this thread mentioning TWOW Alayne and Mercy chapters with very little reference to Dany's wealth of chapters on already-published novels, excluding the memory from AGOT of the House in Braavos. Are there other mentions of lemons in Dany's chapters that aren't being brought up in this thread? There are other examples of lemons in Dorne. The two recent preview chapter just go to show that Martin is continue to point it out. It makes sense in those chapters 1) Sansa loves lemoncakes 2) Arya is in Braavos. Dany hasn't been in Braavos during the books and I don't recall her eating lemons. Having Irri and Jhiqui bring her a lemon and Dany asks where are they from. "Lemons from come from Dorne it is known." Might have been a little too direct. Also I am sure there are places in Essos where lemon trees grow. Just not usually in Braavos. I met they grow in Tyrosh however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Except the books say that Dany didn't stay at the Sealord's palace I did say "or under his protection". I don't necessarily believe the house with the red door HAS to be in Braavos, I'm just looking for ways it could be possible. I don't hate the lemongate conspiracy as such, more the leaps many do from "the house wasn't in Braavos" to "she is an imposter/the child of R+L or A+NorB/some Valyrian baby they handed over to Viserys for some unknown reason (just to make his life even harder) then promptly brainwashed him into thinking she was his sister all along". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 The red door , green grass and lemon trees . A wish ,a dream , a premonition . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 I've been thinking for a while now that the House with the Red Door is central to Dany's identity. By that I mean how she defines herself, sees herself, and possibly what she truly wishes for and what her personal values are. We don't have to go into parentage for the location of the House with the Red Door to have massive consequences. Just take two basic what-if scenarios: - What if... The memory is an illusion, and Dany realizes that she was never really happy in her entire life? - What if... She finds out that the House is in a secluded place somewhere no one would find her if she hid there to lead a peaceful life? I believe the HwtRD is important, and thus lemongate as well. But I think one should look for the impact on her self-perception, and thus, how this could change her. What I wonder if whether she could take a turn for the worst and become the incarnation of fire magic gone wild, devastating Westeros with "fire and blood" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I've been thinking for a while now that the House with the Red Door is central to Dany's identity. By that I mean how she defines herself, sees herself, and possibly what she truly wishes for and what her personal values are. We don't have to go into parentage for the location of the House with the Red Door to have massive consequences. Just take two basic what-if scenarios: - What if... The memory is an illusion, and Dany realizes that she was never really happy in her entire life? - What if... She finds out that the House is in a secluded place somewhere no one would find her if she hid there to lead a peaceful life? I believe the HwtRD is important, and thus lemongate as well. But I think one should look for the impact on her self-perception, and thus, how this could change her. What I wonder if whether she could take a turn for the worst and become the incarnation of fire magic gone wild, devastating Westeros with "fire and blood" ... This is what I have always leaned toward. I don't think that this precludes the 'mistake' theory either. GRRM has already said he is considering a 'twist' that he hadn't thought of before but that is organic to the story. There is no reason he couldn't fold his error into Danys wider arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 This is what I have always leaned toward. I don't think that this precludes the 'mistake' theory either. GRRM has already said he is considering a 'twist' that he hadn't thought of before but that is organic to the story. There is no reason he couldn't fold his error into Danys wider arc. Other than the fact that both Mercy and Alayne were published before he mentioned the twist. The lemons have never been an error otherwise he wouldn't still be publishing material 20 years later that still keeps pointing it out as not adding up. He'd have just never mentioned anything about where lemons come from if he'd made a mistake with the house with the red door in "Braavos" instead of keep on putting out new material that keeps drawing lemons back to Dorne and not Braavos. And the info dumps drawing our attention to this have been becoming more frequent, and not less frequent as he puts on new material which again doesn't make any sense if it wasn't meant to be on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Other than the fact that both Mercy and Alayne were published before he mentioned the twist. The lemons have never been an error otherwise he wouldn't still be publishing material 20 years later that still keeps pointing it out as not adding up. He'd have just never mentioned anything about where lemons come from if he'd made a mistake with the house with the red door in "Braavos" instead of keep on putting out new material that keeps drawing lemons back to Dorne and not Braavos. And the info dumps drawing our attention to this have been becoming more frequent, and not less frequent as he puts on new material which again doesn't make any sense if it wasn't meant to be on purpose. You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that 'Lemongate' is the twist he is talking about I am saying that he is willing to incorporate stuff into his work that wasn't planned from the start. So, for example, he realised he had made the 'mistake' in the first instance but then decided that it would actually fit better into Dany's arc if her memory of her happy childhood was unreliable. So he continued to make reference to lemons and trees etc to lay the ground work for Dany's realisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Lemongate is real. Doesn't anyone else think the red door on the house is as out of place in Bravos as the lemon tree? Especially given the usual color pallet of the rich in Bravos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meemaw Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I read a theory that Dany is a reincarnation of Rheagar and the lemon tree and the red door is the Tower of Joy. Its his memory's that is filtering through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 And how would someone who was max 5 (as that's when Darry died according to the app) know that a lemon tree without lemons is a lemon tree?'Cause her old bear told her it was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because someone pointed out to her "look at the baby velociraptor sitting in your lemon tree, Princess". :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Ah the old nonsensical "velociraptor" argument. I mean, do you people not realize that dinosaurs only don't exist on Earth because of extinction events? Not because of any climatogical changes and what not that would make present day Earth an incompatible environment for them? Dinosaurs exist in GRRM's world because nothing killed them off, not because the Sealord can control the weather to such a degree that a "velociraptor" can live in Braavos. A "velociraptor" in Braavos is simply any other animalMan, and I thought our local coyote was a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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