Let's talk about lemongate

[ChillyPolly]

 

I believe you've forgotten an incredibly simple one along these lines:

 

GRRM originally wrote her as being in Tyrosh, switched it to Braavos and made a mistake in keeping the lemon tree.

 

All he said in the SSM was that yes, it pointed to sometihing. That something could have easily been, "that I made a mistake."

 

Theoretically, he COULD mean that, If he wants to mislead us.  In which case, count me fooled.  'Cause I'm going to be dumb and trust him.

 

I think he knows perfectly well that we're not going to interpret "that would be telling" as "that would be admitting I made a mistake".

[ChillyPolly]

 

And this, if I recall correctly, was close to Ran's take on it as well. His thought was that it was basically proximate to a non-answer by George with no real implications.

 

Yes, but he did not say that GRRM told him that privately or anything.  It's just Ran's interpretation of the same words we see.  

[idio]

 

Yes, but he did not say that GRRM told him that privately or anything.  It's just Ran's interpretation of the same words we see.  

 

Definitely agree. Just saying that someone who literally knows GRRM as much--or more--than anyone has that opinion, which I think is worth pointing out.

[idio]

 

Theoretically, he COULD mean that, If he wants to mislead us.  In which case, count me fooled.  'Cause I'm going to be dumb and trust him.

 

I think he knows perfectly well that we're not going to interpret "that would be telling" as "that would be admitting I made a mistake".

 

Hypothetically speaking, if we assume the above as a given: Why would you interpret his comments as being "misleading"?

 

Can we get the SSM in this thread? I can't seem to find it.

[ChillyPolly]

 

Can we get the SSM in this thread? I can't seem to find it.

 

http://imgur.com/EXN26tk

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

i always took the walking lizard with scythe claws as komodos. i like this raptor idea, i like it a lot! 

[Rippounet]

So "they" need not refer to Viserys.

Even if it does refer to Viserys, read the quote carefully and you'll see that it never places him in the house. The first thing "they" do is get exiled from the house.

It think that's a stretch. Or, to put it another way, I think it requires a convenient interpretation of the text. And this is coming from someone who actually tends to share your views on the subject.

I see this more as a "con." But if you see a way to rephrase the theory (pros&cons) in an objective way, I'll take it.

 

That may be your point but chilly poly specifically says (again and again) that Lemons cannot be grown in cool climates because they need sun and heat. As long as s/he keeps saying such things, people are going to point out it's false.

I added something about IRL (In real life) versus ITB (In the books) in the OP. I think ChillyPolly's argument is based on the text, which says that lemon trees don't grow in cold climates (as per Sharna, for instance). That this is false IRL does not necessarily mean much for the text.

Anyway, I added this point. Hope it helps.

 

Great , except .... now your wording implies there was no climate discrepancy until GRRM said there was one.

For many people (if not most) this was the case. I tried to rephrase my introduction to make it clearer, but I'm walking a fine line here.

 

I believe you've forgotten an incredibly simple one along these lines:

 

GRRM originally wrote her as being in Tyrosh, switched it to Braavos and made a mistake in keeping the lemon tree.

 

All he said in the SSM was that yes, it pointed to sometihing. That something could have easily been, "that I made a mistake."

This is unlikely because [spoiler] the WoW Mercy chapter contains yet another reminder that lemons should not grow in Braavos. [/spoiler]

I've included this as a theory though, because it does deserve it's own entry.

[Lost Melnibonean]

 
:frown5: NEVAR!
 
I made the Lemon Cakes from the Feast of Ice and Fire.... they were tasty... pry lemons from my cold dead hands...

I was not able to enjoy a single glass of lemonade this summer.

[Lost Melnibonean]

 
Theoretically, he COULD mean that, If he wants to mislead us.  In which case, count me fooled.  'Cause I'm going to be dumb and trust him.
 
I think he knows perfectly well that we're not going to interpret "that would be telling" as "that would be admitting I made a mistake".

You and many others might feel mislead, but I and many others would not.

[mmenolas]

 

Theoretically, he COULD mean that, If he wants to mislead us.  

 

I don't feel that it would be misleading.  You're reading it with a bias toward confirming your own theory.  I'm reading the same thing with a complete indifference to the entire lemongate nonsense, and to me it sounds mostly like a non-answer.  Or at least, an answer that could equally mean that it means something important like Dany being with the Sealord, something meta like catching his error, something complex like Dany misremembering, etc.  It is worded such that it doesn't really give any information, and is a non-answer, but you can easily read into it confirmation for your pet theories...  Overall, I wouldn't call it misleading.

 

You and many others might feel mislead, but I and many others would not.

:agree:

[I Dream of Dragons]

Dany doesn't remember Viserys at the house with the red door. In fact, she specifically remember that the house with the red door wasn't his home:

 

-AGoT Daenarys

 

The major con for 1A is the servants stealing the Targaryen family jewels after Darry died. There is no way the servants could have done this no matter the loyalty of the Sealord. The explanation that Darry died of his sickness in the tiny window of time between one Sealord being dispossessed and the next stepping up is too big of a coincidence to be credible.

 

and a pro for 2B why Dany would have grown up in Dorne:

 

-ADwD Barristan 

Deleted as it was already addressed. =)

[ChillyPolly]

 

I don't feel that it would be misleading.  You're reading it with a bias toward confirming your own theory.  I'm reading the same thing with a complete indifference to the entire lemongate nonsense, and to me it sounds mostly like a non-answer.

 

I see.  You are entirely objective, because you believe lemongate is "nonsense".  Your objectivity has allowed you to interpret GRRM's statement accordingly.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Jon Cons Red Beard's theory about Oberyn bringing the Lemon tree and it representing the Dorne connection is not bad.  It always seemed to me like Danys early childhood memories had simply mashed together since she had moved around so much.  She was in Lys and Tyrosh where Lemon trees do grow, and any house could have a red door.

 

The problem though is the question of whether that ever happened. Doran produced this marriage pact after anybody who could have testified to it's authenticity died. He produced it after the current Sealord died, Oberyn was killed by Gregor, and Darry had died 11 years prior. There's no one but himself to claim that it ever happened. And realistically, if he had this card up his sleeve, then why sent Quentyn to Essos and not Oberyn? Oberyn not only knows Essos having spent many years there in his youth, but he could actually have verified to Dany that that marriage pact was real and that he had signed it. Yet instead he sent Oberyn to King's Landing.

 

And another thing though, we're told that Oberyn rarely left Dorne after the Rebellion

 

 

His father ignored the sally. "Prince Oberyn's presence here is unfortunate. His brother is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action. But Oberyn has always been half-mad."

"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?"

"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it."

 

So really I have to kind of look at the supposed marriage pact and decide that it's a fake and never happened. In which case, I can't accept that Oberyn is the one who brought a lemon tree to Braavos as to me Oberyn never was in Braavos.

 

You make some good points, but I must counter:

 

 

Yes, the use of "they" does imply Viserys, but it doesn't explicitly state it. After all:

 

So "they" need not refer to Viserys.

 

 

 

Even if it does refer to Viserys, read the quote carefully and you'll see that it never places him in the house. The first thing "they" do is get exiled from the house.

 

 

The context is confusion about whether "home" is literal or figurative. Yes, on the first read it appears that Viserys didn't feel at home in the House with the Red Door. But Viserys's misunderstanding of "home" is a red flag that indicates further misunderstanding of "home."

 

 

 

True. I included it because it independently corroborates the idea that Dany is from Dorne.

 

I'd also add that the "they" is problematic to declare it means Viserys was actually in the House with the Red Door because Dany gives us her itinerary there of all her travels leading up to Pentos in AGOT after leaving Braavos and she never mentions returning to Braavos. Yet Dany recalls sailing to Braavos with Visery when she's old enough to talk and contemplate how cool it would be to be a sailor. I.e Dany is probably like around 5 years old when she remembers sailing to Braavos. Yet Dany's only known trip to Braavos occurred when she was a newborn when Darry snuck her out of Dragonstone. Which Dany shouldn't remember, and shouldn't be able to do what she does on her trip to Braavos. So that doesn't add up.

 

 

 

I believe you've forgotten an incredibly simple one along these lines:

 

GRRM originally wrote her as being in Tyrosh, switched it to Braavos and made a mistake in keeping the lemon tree.

 

All he said in the SSM was that yes, it pointed to sometihing. That something could have easily been, "that I made a mistake."

 

Except GRRM has been over and over again repeating that lemons come from Dorne. Two of his released WOW chapters do this as well. He keeps coming back to that so it can't be a mistake otherwise he'd have stopped writing it. Instead he reinforces it with every book

[ChillyPolly]

For many people (if not most) this was the case. I tried to rephrase my introduction to make it clearer, but I'm walking a fine line here.

 

Okay.  Walk on, dude!

 

I just don't see how this compromise will make anyone happy.  I mean, if no such discrepancy exists in the text, is it meaningful for GRRM to acknowledge that this discrepancy exists in the text?  One cannot acknowledge what is not there.

 

It seems to me that the same people who denied that the discrepancy existed, are the same people denying that GRRM acknowledged the discrepancy.

 

There were other lemonhaters who argued that that the climate discrepancy was a mistake (which necessarily conceded that it did in fact exist).  I think you're better off trying to compromise with them.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

IThis is unlikely because [spoiler] the WoW Mercy chapter contains yet another reminder that lemons should not grow in Braavos. [/spoiler]

I've included this as a theory though, because it does deserve it's own entry.

 

[spoiler]He did the same with the Alayne chapter as every lemon that can be found in the Vale is used to make a 12 foot lemon cake and Littlefinger promises Sansa that he will order more lemons from Dorne. [/spoiler]

[Richard Writhen]

If it is indeed a minor continuity error it is not really alone. With the Freys in ASOS before the Red Wedding I think there is one.

 

 

 

 

If it isn't, Oberyn could have brought it as a gift to the Sealord, and maybe Dany was also staying there. It's relatively viable. On the show, Oberyn said he had indeed spent much time in Essos.

[Ser Creighton]

Again? Well lets see, can it be symbolic? Yes, can you have a peach tree in Braavos, it appears you can. Gift from Oberyn? Possibly, I have suggested this before along with others. You know what is really funny about this? Nobody ever addresses the other two trees. There are 3 significant trees.

 

The lemon tree at her home in Braavos.

 

The Peach tree in Vaes Tolloro, oh and let me explain this to you, Peaches do not grow in blazing deserts, they just don't. They actually require the cold, a chilling cycle so they can hibernate and not have the production of sugar kill them.

 

The persimmon tree at the top of the great pyramid of Meereen.

 

3 Trees made a subject of places she stayed.

 

Symbolic? Sure. In their natural habitat? Not a single one. Literal trees in the books? Probably, we know at least two of them are. Is it it incredibly difficult to grow a peach in a place called the red waste? Yes, yes it is, in fact it is impossible, and yet there it is, in a place she was living in.

 

So ok for a peach tree in the Red Waste, but not okay for a lemon tree in Braavos?

[RoamingRonin]

Every time I see this subject come up I know exactly how the Targaryens felt each time a Blackfyre rose in rebellion.

Dany doesn't remember Viserys at the house with the red door. In fact, she specifically remember that the house with the red door wasn't his home:
 
-AGoT Daenarys
 
The major con for 1A is the servants stealing the Targaryen family jewels after Darry died. There is no way the servants could have done this no matter the loyalty of the Sealord. The explanation that Darry died of his sickness in the tiny window of time between one Sealord being dispossessed and the next stepping up is too big of a coincidence to be credible.
 
and a pro for 2B why Dany would have grown up in Dorne:
 
-ADwD Barristan 

That's because King's Landing was his home. Here's the full quote you've taken out of context:

"How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!" He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. "How are we to go home?" he repeated, meaning King's Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.
Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

As for Dany reminding Barristan of Ashara, what of it? She's not her daughter. Jorah looks at her and sees Lynesse. Jaime sees something of Tyrion in Brienne. Catelyn sees Arya in Brienne as well. Jorah and Barristan have come to love her (in their own ways) and it doesnt help she shares similar traits with the women they used to love.

[ChillyPolly]

 

So ok for a peach tree in the Red Waste, but not okay for a lemon tree in Braavos?

 

Going by the text, there is no discrepancy with the former, but a discrepancy with the latter.   The text associates peaches with southern climates, and that's where we find them.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Ser Creighton, on 10 Sept 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

So ok for a peach tree in the Red Waste, but not okay for a lemon tree in Braavos

 

Going by the text, there is no discrepancy with the former, but a discrepancy with the latter.   The text associates peaches with southern climates, and that's where we find them.

If George had several references in the text to how peaches shouldn't grow in the Red Waste, then you'd have a point. But once again the lemonhaters are mistaking IRL and ITB.