Why has House Dayne been so quiet?

[Sly Wren]

I can't quote Ned directly, but roughly "Ser Arthur Dayne, the finest knight who used a sword called Dawn would have killed me if not for Howland Reed." I also hate Chekov's Gun, but it's very applicable here. I feel we'll have to learn a lot about Eddard, and that line will play a big part IMO.

Ned's guilt/regret/whatever over Arthur's death stands out even to Bran, who's just a little kid. Seems like there's a lot off stuff about Ned and his regrets that we don't know. And some of that has to do with Arthur.

Agreed. From the very little info in the text, one thing I know, unless we've been lied to, is that Arthur was Rhaegar's oldest, best, and most trusted friend and companion. Taking a small leap of faith, if anyone knows about  what Rhaegar ascertained about the prophecy from those ancient scrolls and what he meant to do about it, it was Arthur. That has been a mystery since before the time of AGOT and yet the characters surrounding it have remained relevant enough to be almost constantly reiterated in the text even though they've been supposedly dead for almost 20 years. Also, the fact that GRRM has refused to reveal the house words of the Dayne's, as of yet, because that would be "telling", leads me to believe they will play a huge part before the conclusion of the final installment in the series. In fact, my personal feeling is that they have, were, are, and will.

Agreed--what Arthur knew and did about it is still unknown. Martin's spent a fair amount of time showing us how complicated and difficult the role of the KG is. How hard it is even for the good ones to know what's best to do. How easy it is to mess up. And who is the paragon (so far) of KG? Arthur. Martin doesn't seem to like leaving "paragons" untouched. Am therefore wondering how much Arthur knew, what he did about it, and how much he did or did not know about Rhaegar's "plans."

[Sly Wren]

The opinion that I'd advance is that while people may look at the story proper and arrive at the conclusion that House Dayne is a minor house, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.  House Dayne is among the oldest Houses in Westeros, some 10k years.  The Starks are very close in that 'age' range.  A very striking similarity to these two houses?  They don't particularly involve themselves in Westerosi politics with respect to the squabbling and ladder climbing.  The Starks I would argue have lost some sense of their true purpose with respect to the North and being the guardians or wardens thereof, but the readers get enough clues that they indeed do have a higher purpose to the realm than just being a Great House who's legacy is somewhat similar to the houses of old that have faded like Gardener, or Harren.  The Starks aren't interested in sitting the I.T. or advancing their stature, they're about maintaining, keeping true to their purpose, even in this part of the story where we as readers see that House Stark has lost a crucial link or awareness of that purpose.  I'd argue that House Dayne is the same in that regard.  They serve the realm, a greater purpose than individual house aims/interests.  I think they may be the propellant to that portion of the story coming to bear and illustrating to the readers that indeed these other houses that have been playing the Game of Thrones to this point and the most prominent in the story with respect to our perceptions of their relative stature and power are off-base and counter to the purpose that these Houses are serving, to the realm.  

Especially with the bolded. The Daynes have been quiet re: the game of thrones. But Martin made clear in the Game prologue that the real problem is not the game of thrones. It's the Others. And how to deal with them. 

The Daynes (and their unknown words) are in among the Hightowers (We Light the Way) and the Yronwoods (We Guard the Way). Ancient, not-Rhoynish-looking houses who seem to have a VERY old tradition of service with the Sword of the Morning. They may not be interested in the politics. But they seem to have a tie to "protecting the weak" if Arthur is any indication. 

That's the role they'll play--one way or another. 

I'd bet a lot of money that their House words are "Bringers of Light" or something similar.

I'm holding out for Here Comes the Sun.

Or Good Day Sunshine.

Or just something with a catchy chorus. 

[LmL]

Especially with the bolded. The Daynes have been quiet re: the game of thrones. But Martin made clear in the Game prologue that the real problem is not the game of thrones. It's the Others. And how to deal with them. 

The Daynes (and their unknown words) are in among the Hightowers (We Light the Way) and the Yronwoods (We Guard the Way). Ancient, not-Rhoynish-looking houses who seem to have a VERY old tradition of service with the Sword of the Morning. They may not be interested in the politics. But they seem to have a tie to "protecting the weak" if Arthur is any indication. 

That's the role they'll play--one way or another. 

I'm holding out for Here Comes the Sun.

Or Good Day Sunshine.

Or just something with a catchy chorus. 

Sly Wren has a great thread speculating about Jon as the SotM - I'm on mobile and can't link to it, but Sly you should leave a link for the folks here to check out. :)

[Beorn Snow]

House Dayne: Our herrings are red.

No seriously. They might do something crazy in next book. I´ve no idea what. Maybe it´s mostly back-story and not so much things they do in the future.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I think they've been quiet because they're not a politically powerful house and are suffering from a major internal crisis. Their heir is missing and Allyria's betrothed was made an outlaw and then died. A member of their cadet branch just tried to kill a princess. They have bigger things to worry about than courtly intrigues and revenge plots if the very existence of their house is in jeopardy. 

That said, I think they will be important in the future. If the Daynes didn't matter in the long run, then I doubt GRRM would be reminding us of Ashara's involvement with the Starks as late as ADWD. 

 

[Dorian Martell]

I'd bet a lot of money that their House words are "Bringers of Light" or something similar.

I was thinking "We don't reveal story plots" or "Look at how huge my sword is"

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren has a great thread speculating about Jon as the SotM - I'm on mobile and can't link to it, but Sly you should leave a link for the folks here to check out.

You are very nice! Here's the link to  The-sword-of-the-morning one. And here's -The second thread-.

House Dayne: Our herrings are red.

No seriously. They might do something crazy in next book. I´ve no idea what. Maybe it´s mostly back-story and not so much things they do in the future.

"Our Herrings are Red, but Our Sword is White!"

And it could all be backstory with all of the Dawn and Great Empire of the Dawn stuff. But Jon sees that Sword like revelation. And Jaime and others keep bringing Arthur up. I think something Dayne-ish will happen.

I was thinking "We don't reveal story plots" or "Look at how huge my sword is"

"You Think You Know Sword Envy? I'll Show You Sword Envy!"

That would look odd on their letterhead, though. . .

[1000th Lord Commander]

I don't regard House Dayne as a minor house. Clearly they have a long history, and a important sword, and they were one of the kings Nymeria sent to the Wall, as well as the fact that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne.

 

I think that thier silence during the war of 5 kings is simply due to the fact that they have a boy lord, and few actual members to take part in any story. Most of what we've seen of house Dayne is backstory.

 

I thin they definitely have a role to play in the upcoming books

[Shuvuuia]

Redwyne twins and Fowler twins are mentioned, yes, but that's about it. I'm pretty obsessed by these books, but I couldn't tell you without googling just what they did. Does the fact that they're mentioned necessitate further mention? Daynes are more important in that we hear about Ashara via Barristan, and Arthur is one of three knights in Ned's dream. Then there's the one who attacks Myrcella. For me that's enough. I just want this story to get itself together, and move on.

that's what I mean, current Daynes of Starfall aren't mentioned after Edric's appearence. It would be easier for someone (say, Darkstar or Arianne) to briefly explain what's going on with them, just a couple of lines, and move on. But because there is no mentioning them - and I doubt that GRRM forgot about Edric and Allyria -, people think we would see them (again in case of Ned) or something important will happen. Although I personally don't think it would be super important.

And there are many, many less important characters who are still frequently mentioned and will probably have their resolutions in the end, so a couple of passages about two Daynes(Edric already established) won't harm the book.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't believe that they are as powerful as they used to be, so they don't play an important role yet, something like the thing that happened to Velaryons. Once they were great but now they are not important enough.

[OuttaOldtown]

I'd bet a lot of money that their House words are "Bringers of Light" or something similar.

Their words have been withheld from us, the audience, not the characters in the story, if it were so obviously closely tied to the sword wielded by the savior of an entire religious sect why wouldn't their House be tied to R'hllor & their customs? Or at the very least why wouldn't red priests have an interest in Dawn? 

[Belgarad]

Their words have been withheld from us, the audience, not the characters in the story, if it were so obviously closely tied to the sword wielded by the savior of an entire religious sect why wouldn't their House be tied to R'hllor & their customs? Or at the very least why wouldn't red priests have an interest in Dawn? 

 

The author has stated that the only reason their house words have been withheld is because they would essentially spoil a certain plot point.  My assumption is that the plot point is that Dawn is the original Lightbringer.

[OuttaOldtown]

The author has stated that the only reason their house words have been withheld is because they would essentially spoil a certain plot point.  My assumption is that the plot point is that Dawn is the original Lightbringer.

That's not what I'm questioning, I'm aware of that, what I'm saying is if it's that obviously connected to lightbringer why wouldn't red priests make Starfall a major site for a Red Temple? I know where you're coming from & the popular theory, I do think it's possible as Hightower words 'We light the way' could also be connected. What I question is how he'll manage to make it THAT directly linked to lightbringer while never having a red priest suggest anything of the sort to us in five books..

[LmL]

That's not what I'm questioning, I'm aware of that, what I'm saying is if it's that obviously connected to lightbringer why wouldn't red priests make Starfall a major site for a Red Temple? I know where you're coming from & the popular theory, I do think it's possible as Hightower words 'We light the way' could also be connected. What I question is how he'll manage to make it THAT directly linked to lightbringer while never having a red priest suggest anything of the sort to us in five books..

Not sure if you've read any of my mad ramblings, but I have reason to suspect there were TWO "lightbringer" swords in the Dawn Age (you can't have a good sword fight with only one magic sword, after all). Azor Ahai was actually not a hero, but a villain, and his "Lightbringer" sword was a prototype for Valyrian steel, in a way - it was black steel, forged in dragonfire with blood magic. Dawn, however, has common symbolism with icy things, like the milkglass bones of the Others and their "pale swords" that are "alive with moonlight." Basically my hypothesis is that Azor Ahai was something of an invader in Westeros, and the First Men (proto-Stark, most likely) defeated him with the original Ice, a magical white sword, which is now known as Dawn. Dawn / original Ice was the "real" Lightbringer, in that it "brought the light," whereas AA's black sword was more of a "Nightbringer," a light-drinking sword. 

In this scenario, it makes sense that the R'hllorists haven't had anything to do with Starfall. Think about what we know of the R'hllorists and fire magic practitioners in general - it's a lot of shadow and darkness, quite frankly. Human sacrifice, shadow babies, "touching the darkness" to reach the light, Asshai by the Shadow, all the Valyrian magic, Drogon the "winged shadow" with black fire and black blood... not a lot of light-bringing going on. Meanwhile, icy things are quite luminescent - the Others are "pale shadows" whose swords glow, for example. I think Martin is paling with us a bit here, playing on our expectations that fire brings light and ice is cold and death. After a fire burns, everything is black and cold, but when something is frozen, it shines. Something like that. You know he's looking for a way to make "Ice" the "good guy," at least in some way - he's definitely on #teamIce. 

[OuttaOldtown]

Not sure if you've read any of my mad ramblings, but I have reason to suspect there were TWO "lightbringer" swords in the Dawn Age (you can't have a good sword fight with only one magic sword, after all). Azor Ahai was actually not a hero, but a villain, and his "Lightbringer" sword was a prototype for Valyrian steel, in a way - it was black steel, forged in dragonfire with blood magic. Dawn, however, has common symbolism with icy things, like the milkglass bones of the Others and their "pale swords" that are "alive with moonlight." Basically my hypothesis is that Azor Ahai was something of an invader in Westeros, and the First Men (proto-Stark, most likely) defeated him with the original Ice, a magical white sword, which is now known as Dawn. Dawn / original Ice was the "real" Lightbringer, in that it "brought the light," whereas AA's black sword was more of a "Nightbringer," a light-drinking sword. 

In this scenario, it makes sense that the R'hllorists haven't had anything to do with Starfall. Think about what we know of the R'hllorists and fire magic practitioners in general - it's a lot of shadow and darkness, quite frankly. Human sacrifice, shadow babies, "touching the darkness" to reach the light, Asshai by the Shadow, all the Valyrian magic, Drogon the "winged shadow" with black fire and black blood... not a lot of light-bringing going on. Meanwhile, icy things are quite luminescent - the Others are "pale shadows" whose swords glow, for example. I think Martin is paling with us a bit here, playing on our expectations that fire brings light and ice is cold and death. After a fire burns, everything is black and cold, but when something is frozen, it shines. Something like that. You know he's looking for a way to make "Ice" the "good guy," at least in some way - he's definitely on #teamIce. 

Yes I have indeed, we agree on much and more. 

[Durran Durrandon]

The conversation between Edric and Arya is interesting. He really does seem to be feeling her out for what Ned has told him about Jon, and he seems interested in Jon. He goes so far as to name Jon his milk-brother, which is not normally an association a lord would want to make with a bastard. Now we could just chalk that up to Edric being a bit less of a dick than half the nobles in Westeros, which seems to be the case; He seems like a nice kid, relatively speaking, but I suspect he knows something about Jon.

Jon is likely to be resurrected in the sense that Beric has been, before the end of book 6, and we have seen what Beric is. He lights his sword on fire with the blood from his had. Now Beric's sword breaks, because it is an ordinary sword, and you aren't actually supposed to light your sword on fire.However, I suspect that if Jon gets Dawn from Edric and he pulls the same stunt, Dawn will do something else entirely. Thought Dawn isn't the only dragon steel sword that this could occur with.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

The conversation between Edric and Arya is interesting. He really does seem to be feeling her out for what Ned has told him about Jon, and he seems interested in Jon. He goes so far as to name Jon his milk-brother, which is not normally an association a lord would want to make with a bastard. Now we could just chalk that up to Edric being a bit less of a dick than half the nobles in Westeros, which seems to be the case; He seems like a nice kid, relatively speaking, but I suspect he knows something about Jon.

Jon is likely to be resurrected in the sense that Beric has been, before the end of book 6, and we have seen what Beric is. He lights his sword on fire with the blood from his had. Now Beric's sword breaks, because it is an ordinary sword, and you aren't actually supposed to light your sword on fire.However, I suspect that if Jon gets Dawn from Edric and he pulls the same stunt, Dawn will do something else entirely. Thought Dawn isn't the only dragon steel sword that this could occur with.

I definitely agree with the first paragraph.

 

With the second, Dawn is not Dragon Steel or VS, it's forged from the heart of a fallen star/meteor and already gives off its own glow like moonlight. Not sure about the Beric like resurrection either, Cat still has the lords kiss, and that would blow for Jon's story in many ways. I don't know where Ned is or if he has access to Dawn or how he would get it all the way up to the wall. Also, lighting an already naturally self lit sword of unknown composition might  jeopardize its structural integrity, or it could possibly make it even more badass. I don't know, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[LmL]

I tend to think Jon will be more like Coldhands than Beric, as I think Coldhands is an undead skinchanger or greenseer, one whose soul was temporarily stored in his animal and put back in a resurrected / wighted body. Or, he could be a "fiery Coldhands," which would have more of his soul / personality intact than Beric. 

Agree with Durran that Edric seems to know a bit more than he lets on, and that he will become somewhat relevant in relation to Dawn in the last two books. 

I still think Darkstar will steal it for a time, however.

And I don't think Dawn should be covered in blood, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

[Sly Wren]

The conversation between Edric and Arya is interesting. He really does seem to be feeling her out for what Ned has told him about Jon, and he seems interested in Jon. He goes so far as to name Jon his milk-brother, which is not normally an association a lord would want to make with a bastard. Now we could just chalk that up to Edric being a bit less of a dick than half the nobles in Westeros, which seems to be the case; He seems like a nice kid, relatively speaking, but I suspect he knows something about Jon.

Or about the history of the potential connection between the Starks and the Daynes. Edric seems a bit surprised by Arya's lack of knowledge re: Wylla. As though knowing the connection between the Starks and the Daynes and Starfall should be common knowledge for Lady Arya Stark. 

He's also very deferential to her--as you said, he seems like a really polite kid, but that deference seems like it's taught.

Am also wondering if it might be less that Edric "knows" something than that the Daynes of Starfall freely discuss Winterfell and the Starks. That we're getting a glimpse into their culture vs. the kibosh Ned put on all things coming near Asahra Dayne. Eric thinks it's acceptable to stress that he's milk-brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell--seems like the Daynes might think this is perfectly acceptable conversation. Gives a glimpse (maybe) in how the Daynes see the Starks.

Perhaps a bit like Jojen and Meera's surprise that Bran never heard the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. . . 

With the second, Dawn is not Dragon Steel or VS, it's forged from the heart of a fallen star/meteor and already gives off its own glow like moonlight.

Yes--Dawn's not Valyrian Steel. But I think it might be dragonsteel. Dragon glass is a naturally occurring substance--not produced by dragons. Am thinking that Dawn is also made from a naturally occurring substance--heart of a falling star (or comet) called dragonsteel.

But I agree that  lighting it up seems unlikely--all of the swords lit on fire are "wrong"--sounds like a sword that lights itself is the key.

Am now back to wondering what such a sword might do to Darkstar--will it know it's in the wrong hands?

[Durran Durrandon]

I definitely agree with the first paragraph.

 

With the second, Dawn is not Dragon Steel or VS, it's forged from the heart of a fallen star/meteor and already gives off its own glow like moonlight. Not sure about the Beric like resurrection either, Cat still has the lords kiss, and that would blow for Jon's story in many ways. I don't know where Ned is or if he has access to Dawn or how he would get it all the way up to the wall. Also, lighting an already naturally self lit sword of unknown composition might  jeopardize its structural integrity, or it could possibly make it even more badass. I don't know, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yeah, I am playing word games. We are told that the last hero had a sword of dragon steel, by Sam. But this should have been thousands of years before Valyria, so dragon steel can't be Valyrian steel, unless they both share a common origin. I suspect the dragons that dragon steel was forged from were the meteorites that fell from the destroyed moon in the Qartheen, a thousand thousand dragons. I will leave debates as to weather Dawn was forged from the comet or the moon bits to others for now.