The Heresy essays: X+Y=J : Arthur + Lyanna=J

[Sly Wren]

Yeah you should put it together in an essay for sure, since you've got such a bead on it. I would recommend finding other Lyanna parallels and comparing them to Sansa. That's the approach I am taking with AA - I'm comparing all the characters who check some of the boxes to find what they have or do in common. 

A fair point.

Though finding parallels with a mythical, symbolic, prophetic figure is a bit different. I'm not arguing that Lyanna is an ancient myth Sansa and Arya have elements of. Not fulfilling a prophecy. Rather, Martin's writing his repeats--like Robert's Rebellion, Ned' repeating past mistakes--the echoes of past events vs. a mythical archetype.

So, much more specific than an "AA type." Family repeating and varying facts from other family and events. Old stories come again, not prophesies. The echoes are evidence.

Now, if I can find the time. . . . 

[Ygrain]

 

On my phone so quoting is a bit messed up.But are you serious? 

 

All we have seen from you guys regarding "this" issue is a whole lot of avoidance especially when confronted with things that shake and threatened your view. It becomes a "where are all the clues we don't see them" in hopes I believe of burning sound prospects in statements like the above.

 Your arguement for Lyanna being at the tower based on

1.a context of a dream

2.The app

Just got owned and no amount of diversion is going to change that.

 

Sly wren and Superunknown put an excellent esssy and arguement together that has Arthur as a very good prospect based on character echoing through Sansa and symbolism on a whole.

 

@ Everyone as we are winding down i"ll do the summary of points made in the thread when i go back to the hotel a bit later.Until keep up the good work .

A blatant lie here, as LmL illustrated above. As for "your" as in, "my personal", I will reiterate:

No app is needed to figure out where Lyanna died, and figuring out that she died at ToJ is NOT based solely on the dream. It is based on Ned's waking memory of Lyanna dying in a room that smelled of blood and roses and extracting a promise(s) from Ned, on the narrative descriptor of the dream "Lyanna in her bed of blood", i.e. her death, on the dream elements of blood, roses and Lyanna, and on Ned's response "I promise".  In other words, it is based on the textual analysis and knowledge of the ways of writing, general as well as Martin-specific: we get only a rudimentary detail first, acting like snowball when more and more layers are added. If a character's death is established as important (and we know it is, because it has been haunting Ned ever since), then the when and where must be established, as well as further details of the circumstances. The "when" is correct in the dream - after the siege of SE, when Ned went with his friends, and the dream goes "as it had been in life". The dream correctly sets the scene - the fight - the outcome of which is again known from Ned's waking memory. So, in fact, while using figurative elements (wraiths, blood in the sky, storms of rose petals) and not necessarily being a literal recording of the conversation, the dream is true in its gist. There is zero ground for claiming that the "where" is false, zero textual elements placing Lyanna elsewhere. "It's a dream" is NOT textual evidence, it's wishful thinking.

And BTW, while you are busy patting each other's shoulder, I hope that you do realize that Jon couldn't have been conceived by Ashara, Wylla, Lyanna, Ned, Rhaegar, Mance, Tywin, Howland, Robert and whoever else you have on your list simultaneously. Meaning, only one option is right and the rest of the excellent cases are just dead wrong. 

----

When bringing up parallels, Arya defending Micah was brought up somewhere above (or was it another thread?) The best parallel for Lyanna, though, is Jon (an uninvolved person) standing up to defend Samwell against three brutes in the training session. 

 

[wolfmaid7]

Ygrain:There is zero ground for claiming that the "where" is false, zero textual elements placing Lyanna elsewhere. "It's a dream" is NOT textual evidence, it's wishful thinking.And BTW, while you are busy patting each other's shoulder, I hope that you do realize that Jon couldn't have been conceived by Ashara, Wylla, Lyanna, Ned, Rhaegar, Mance, Tywin, Howland, Robert and whoever else you have on your list simultaneously. Meaning, only one option is right and the rest of the excellent cases are just dead wrong. 

1. If you can show me where it is stated Dorne or the Princes Pass has a flower garden that would be cool.So to reverse the thinking on this  a room smelling of roses places her elsehwere because.....see below

2. If you could explain to me the purpose of being in hiding and going unseen having "someone" bring fresh flowers from somewhere to the tower when their are battles happening all over that would be nice.

OR...She had to be in a local that was near a place that had flowers i.e garden or close proximity to one that would provide privacy and saftey during a time of war where someone could have brought them.

It is a dream or the info is in the context of a dream that is all that's needed to be said. You nor anyone has given anything other than

1. The app

2.she was in the dream therefore she was there.That makes nooooo sense it a fallacy of reasoning. We have physical proof that the kgs figt took place there because Ned's waking moments recollecting it validates that element in the dream.

3. By the way where are the subtle clues on stuff like this?

You tell me what validates Lyanna was there other than the dream.You can't tell me that no matter how hard you all have yelled.You haven't done that.

Its logical thinking Ygrain try it you might like it.Have fun with this,take part instead of being an antagonist;taking stuff so personal as if i'm attacking a core value in your life.

I have to ask ,are you for real with that bolded statement? I'm sorry ofcourse you are nevermind i don't know why i'm suprised.I expected as much truth.You all really raising the feathers are you?

Everyone has the right to present their prospect and the clues as they see them.That is the point of the project.And to have them seen through unbiased and eyes that are "capable" of putting aside preconcieved notions ( some people don't have that ability it seems) When this is all over we can line them up side by side and have them dance.So if you are one of those able to take a page out of KMs book and judge an essay on its own merit and maybe you won't be so threatned and resort to 

 

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

When bringing up parallels, Arya defending Micah was brought up somewhere above (or was it another thread?) The best parallel for Lyanna, though, is Jon (an uninvolved person) standing up to defend Samwell against three brutes in the training session.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Jon is meant to be a parallel of Lyanna in that scene. The person that he is meant to be an echo of is more than likely Arthur Dayne in that scene, although I can not prove it at this point. Jon is joined in his defense of Sam by Pyp and Grenn. Pyp is described as having ears like a bat which would put him in the role of Whent. Grenn's nickname is the Aurochs placing him as the Bull or Hightower. I don't recall ever hearing that Whent and Hightower helped Lyanna to defend anyone.

[wolfmaid7]

I actually agree with Lyanna/Jon parallel in that scene. What he did with Sam seems a replay of Lyanna and Howland against the 3 would be men that were suppose to have honor.But the above works to i never thought of that.

[Lady Dyanna]

It's one of the echoes that I've been trying to play with. Pyp and Grenn were the only ones I could identify for sure. Although it also does parallel the scene with Micah and Joffrey and Arya as well. Both Sam and Joff recieve similar head injuries. I'm not sure if either scene is meant to echo the defense of Howland or some other as yet unknown scene.

[LmL]

1. If you can show me where it is stated Dorne or the Princes Pass has a flower garden that would be cool.So to reverse the thinking on this  a room smelling of roses places her elsehwere because.....see below

2. If you could explain to me the purpose of being in hiding and going unseen having "someone" bring fresh flowers from somewhere to the tower when their are battles happening all over that would be nice.

OR...She had to be in a local that was near a place that had flowers i.e garden or close proximity to one that would provide privacy and saftey during a time of war where someone could have brought them.

It is a dream or the info is in the context of a dream that is all that's needed to be said. You nor anyone has given anything other than

1. The app

2.she was in the dream therefore she was there.That makes nooooo sense it a fallacy of reasoning. We have physical proof that the kgs figt took place there because Ned's waking moments recollecting it validates that element in the dream.

3. By the way where are the subtle clues on stuff like this?

You tell me what validates Lyanna was there other than the dream.You can't tell me that no matter how hard you all have yelled.You haven't done that.

Its logical thinking Ygrain try it you might like it.Have fun with this,take part instead of being an antagonist;taking stuff so personal as if i'm attacking a core value in your life.

I have to ask ,are you for real with that bolded statement? I'm sorry ofcourse you are nevermind i don't know why i'm suprised.I expected as much truth.You all really raising the feathers are you?

Everyone has the right to present their prospect and the clues as they see them.That is the point of the project.And to have them seen through unbiased and eyes that are "capable" of putting aside preconcieved notions ( some people don't have that ability it seems) When this is all over we can line them up side by side and have them dance.So if you are one of those able to take a page out of KMs book and judge an essay on its own merit and maybe you won't be so threatned and resort to 

 

 

 

How many times to people have to tell you that the ToJ was not in the desert? That the red mountains are a belt of fertility? That the roses Ned remembers in his walking recollection were black and dead? There is no issue here with the roses. And this has been pointed out to you, several times, but yet... you keep raising this as evidence, and saying we are ignoring your evidence. We are not, your evidence doesn't exist, it's been debunked. 

Hypocritically, you continue to ignore all the evidence people have presented that Lyanna was at the ToJ, as you did in the comment above. 

For god's sake, why would three KG be there if there was not a blood royal present? Their presence at the ToJ is itself evidence. 

The death of the White Bull at the birth of Mithras (Jon) is evidence. 

All of Ned's recollections (which KingMonkey analyzed very well) that indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna are the parents are also clues that Lyanna was at the ToJ. 

And most of all, the description of the dream - a recurring dream - as being about the 3 KG, the tower long fallen, and the bed of blood indicate Lyanna was there. If Lyanna wasn't there, it's a dream about fighting 3 KG at an empty tower. And that's not about Lyanna then.

I don't even know why any of us waste the time here - this has all been said in this thread. But you just keep saying "ALL YOU HAVE IS THE APP AND THE DREAM" as if saying so makes it true. 

All you have is... what exactly?

You know what, just never mind. I think I've had my fill of this "intellectual exercise." Call me when you find some evidence. At least Lady Dyanna and Sly Wren can find some kind of symbolism which connect Jon to Arthur... now if only there was some kind of firmer evidence to corroborate it, you'd have something. If any of your arguments trying to poke holes in RLJ made sense, you'd have something. And if Jon is Arthur's son, then you should be able to find both.

Good luck. 

 

[Ygrain]

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Jon is meant to be a parallel of Lyanna in that scene. The person that he is meant to be an echo of is more than likely Arthur Dayne in that scene, although I can not prove it at this point. Jon is joined in his defense of Sam by Pyp and Grenn. Pyp is described as having ears like a bat which would put him in the role of Whent. Grenn's nickname is the Aurochs placing him as the Bull or Hightower. I don't recall ever hearing that Whent and Hightower helped Lyanna to defend anyone.

Neither do I recall Dayne, Whent and Hightower standing up to three, if you want to be punctual.

Your observation of Pyp-Grenn and Whent-Hightower parallels is an interesting one but since the situations are never a 100% copy of each other, there can be multiple parallels included. Standing up for a weaker person against three bullies is definitely a replay of the Lyanna, Howland and the three squires scenario. The Magnificent Three, if intended that way, may be another, but since the only scenario known with those three is the ToJ fight, I can't really figure out what purpose would it serve when the situations are so very different.

1. If you can show me where it is stated Dorne or the Princes Pass has a flower garden that would be cool.So to reverse the thinking on this  a room smelling of roses places her elsehwere because.....see below

2. If you could explain to me the purpose of being in hiding and going unseen having "someone" bring fresh flowers from somewhere to the tower when their are battles happening all over that would be nice.

OR...She had to be in a local that was near a place that had flowers i.e garden or close proximity to one that would provide privacy and saftey during a time of war where someone could have brought them.

It is a dream or the info is in the context of a dream that is all that's needed to be said. You nor anyone has given anything other than

1. The app

2.she was in the dream therefore she was there.That makes nooooo sense it a fallacy of reasoning. We have physical proof that the kgs figt took place there because Ned's waking moments recollecting it validates that element in the dream.

3. By the way where are the subtle clues on stuff like this?

You tell me what validates Lyanna was there other than the dream.You can't tell me that no matter how hard you all have yelled.You haven't done that.

Its logical thinking Ygrain try it you might like it.Have fun with this,take part instead of being an antagonist;taking stuff so personal as if i'm attacking a core value in your life.

I have to ask ,are you for real with that bolded statement? I'm sorry ofcourse you are nevermind i don't know why i'm suprised.I expected as much truth.You all really raising the feathers are you?

Everyone has the right to present their prospect and the clues as they see them.That is the point of the project.And to have them seen through unbiased and eyes that are "capable" of putting aside preconcieved notions ( some people don't have that ability it seems) When this is all over we can line them up side by side and have them dance.So if you are one of those able to take a page out of KMs book and judge an essay on its own merit and maybe you won't be so threatned and resort to 

Quit beating the horse which has been dissected for you by multiple people multiple times (like, the content of the dream versus the description of the dream, which you have been freely ignoring), and provide textual support placing Lyanna anywhere else. Until then, buh-bye.

[Sly Wren]

For god's sake, why would three KG be there if there was not a blood royal present? Their presence at the ToJ is itself evidence.

But the dream only says the three men wait before the round tower. No mention of how or when they got there. Were they there guarding someone beforehand? Just got there? No idea. Text gives no context. We can infer different contexts that are compatible with the text. But the text doesn't give it--does not tell us how or why the men are before the round tower. Just that they are waiting.

And most of all, the description of the dream - a recurring dream - as being about the 3 KG, the tower long fallen, and the bed of blood indicate Lyanna was there. If Lyanna wasn't there, it's a dream about fighting 3 KG at an empty tower. And that's not about Lyanna then.

But the dream fragment is interrupted. No way to determine for sure what happened next because Ned gets interrupted (Martin is VERY fond of interrupting the presentation of vital evidence. . . grumble). No way to know for sure how the three things listed all relate to Lyanna's bed of blood. How they all unite in the dream around Lyanna. 

Without more data, the tower is like an inkblot. We need more data. 

[Melifeather]

Feather Crystal, I'm really tired of you heretics trying to conflate the two meanings of canon or pretending they don't exist. If we are talking canon as in authentic works of the author - the published books, as Martin says - then TWOIAF is canon. If we mean "is all of the info in TWOIAF definitely true?" as in, is all the info in TWOIAF "canonical info," then it's "pretty damn close," as George says. 

Please stop pretending like George is declaring one of his own books not part of the canon, because that is clearly not what he was saying. He was referring to the maesterly bias, which is the second meaning of canon - what we know to be true - not the first definition. 

Again, this is really not hard to grasp. TWOIAF has an unreliable narrator just as every book does. It's no different. 

When George says "only the books are canon" that means TWOIAF and D & E as well as the five novels. They are all "books" - I hope we agree on that - and they are written by George Martin. Since when is TWOIAF not a book?

I have never said it's not a book. I am defining what is and isn't "canon". Only the ASOIAF books are canon when it comes to supporting various theories. With that definition of canon, the World book is not canon. George himself said that "semi-canon" is "good".

The World book was written by three people, not just George. Biases, inconsistencies, and omissions have crept in.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 

I have never said it's not a book. I am defining what is and isn't "canon". Only the ASOIAF books are canon when it comes to supporting various theories. With that definition of canon, the World book is not canon. George himself said that "semi-canon" is "good".

The World book was written by three people, not just George. Biases, inconsistencies, and omissions have crept in.

Biases, inconsistencies and omissions do not constitute what is or is not canon. As LmL has eloquently explained multiple times. There are biases, inconsistencies and omissions in ASoIaF as well, and that does not affect their status as canon at all. "Canon" =/= "true".

And with that, I will echo and agree with what Ygrain and LmL said just above and take my leave from this ludicrous thread.