The Heresy essays: X+Y=J : Arthur + Lyanna=J

[SFDanny]

I'll argue that I'm being consistent here in urging a proper caution on the use of this passage

For some reason GRRM has stated that the passage needs to be treated with caution. We don't know why and how far, but he did say it and so it seems unwise, given the context, that we should dismiss all doubts. Why issue that warning in the first place when it is self evident that the sky was not literally streaked with blood and Lord Eddard's companions were not then wraiths. As I said; context is everything.

I agree it is unwise to dismiss all doubts. I'm not asking for literal acceptance all aspects of Ned's dream. I'm asking for evidence that contradicts what is not only in Ned's dream, but is also supported both in the appendix of AGoT, and in the Lyanna entry of the app around one topic - Lyanna's death taking place at the Tower of Joy. So, yes, context is everything. The context of evaluating Lyanna's location when she dies is these three sources all support the idea she was at the Tower. We have nothing other than wishful thinking that indicates she was somewhere else.

Wolfmaid,

a quick point and I'll try to come back and respond to more later. You keep saying the Tower of Joy is in a desert. Please read the following:

"The more restless of the First Men pushed onward and made homes for themselves in the foothills south of the Red Mountains, where storms moving north were won't to drop their moisture, creating a fertile green belt. Those who climbed farther took refuge amongst the peaks in hidden valleys and high mountain meadows where the grass was green and sweet." (TWoI&F 236)

I think it is time to stop pushing the idea the Tower of Joy is in a desert. It is in a mountain pass. In areas describe as much different than the desert sand to the south. Perhaps even in an area where roses grow.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 

This is to both of you SFDanny (1) it is unreasonable and unrealistic to look to others concerning memory of where Lynna died. We have no idea who "they" are,Howland has yet to have his input so the only person we have to realistically look to is Ned.No one else.

You can't claim to remember nothing after your sister dies,yet remember aftermath to give vivid details about what you did with the bodies of you men plus 3 kgs but don't mention for example you or Howland wrapping Lyanna's body for transport.(2)He gives no detail about her because she was IMO not there. Now you labled the dream being about Lyanna's bed of blood which is a mischaracterization of the dream. He could hear her screaming atleast the first scream and the roses flying across a blood streaked sky that very well have been what did Lyanna in and that's all he would have needed to let it be her bed of blood.Does that in the context of the dream means she was actually there? Or was it symbolic for her bed of blood?

Women's bed of blood are suppose to be in childbirth yes ( Asha and Brienne are examples of that probably not going to be the case because they chose to fight as men do) As Lyanna did ,but the battle of women are suppose to be in CB where does the bloody bed  of fighters (men) occur?

Come on lets think beyond the veil and ask the important questions of ok .The point is Ned gives details of two events separately because they are separate but there is something that links them.

I disagree it is evidence of absence Corbon because some chose not to look at whats  around it.(3)Outside of the dream to the events themselves.What's going on what's the atmosphere the climate etc.

As i said before one doesn't claim to have no memory of an incident then give vivid detail of the incident and exclude a seeingly important element that would solidify Lyanna being there.That doesnt make sense.

(4)Secondly, concerning the room being filled with the smell of blood and roses. So she is in the desert supposedly in hiding there's no rose gardens in that region which leaves two options.

1.Where this "room" is,is located where that smell can come in.

2. Someone during a time of war in winter is saying eff privacy i'm going to make sure to keep up a continiuous supply of roses from X to the tower.

This thing about absence of evidence works but if the evidence is in the critical thinking i'm sorry but no.Excuse me but Howland is mentioned we know he and Ned rode away because Ned said so in his waking state.We know because GRRM said so.You guys loose this one.I'm sorry.

So SFDanny apologies if you were were offended by me saying i see no evidence,but i'm being truthful. And if you guys reply to me is to prove that she wasn't there i made a case and a good one.

Location in a time of war where privacy is suppose to be an issue in relation to access of  roses.

Ned's waking memory not mentioning Lyanna in any capacity if she was there is huge .If you want to say its ambiguous and it really is i will copt to that but to say that she was there as you all have done and then get offended because i say she wasn;t .i really don't understand how you all can be like that.Doesn't that seem a tad bit hyprocritical.

 

(1) it is unreasonable and unrealistic to look to others concerning memory of where Lynna died. We have no idea who "they" are,Howland has yet to have his input so the only person we have to realistically look to is Ned.No one else.

This is disingenuous. I won't speak for others in this thread, but I am not looking to other characters in the novels to provide evidence of where Lyanna was when she died, nor am I asking what other characters in the novels may or may not know about Lyanna. I'm looking to you to show those indications from the text that she wasn't at the Tower of Joy. Because you are the one saying that she wasn't and maintaining that there is plenty, plenty of evidence that she wasn't. That "evidence" that you see and that I don't see is what I'm trying to obtain.

 

(2)He gives no detail about her because she was IMO not there.

Is this the evidence that she wasn't there?

 

(3)Outside of the dream to the events themselves.What's going on what's the atmosphere the climate etc.

Okay. What is going on? What is the atmosphere? What is the climate? It one thing to say "what's going on", etc., but you can't just leave it at that. Tell us what it is about these things leads you to believe what you contend.

 

(4)Secondly, concerning the room being filled with the smell of blood and roses. So she is in the desert supposedly in hiding there's no rose gardens

Where is the evidence that she was in the desert and that there were no rose gardens? Other than you saying it, I mean.

(Parenthetically, aren't the roses Ned remembers "dead and black" rather than fresh ones? If so, then nearby rose gardens aren't really necessary, are they? And isn't is possible that these roses could be one of the "not always literal" parts of the dream, i.e. metaphorical and symbolic roses?)

 

To sum up, the only thing you have been doing is raising questions about the story (which, don't get me wrong, is a fine thing to do). However, going on to claim that raising questions amounts to "evidence" for a contrary view is just absurd. A contrary view needs to be supported by references in the text. I haven't seen any provided.

And I'll repeat: I'm not asking for the points-of-view of any character. I would like to see the evidence that you have to support what you claim.

[LmL]

 

I agree it is unwise to dismiss all doubts. I'm not asking for literal acceptance all aspects of Ned's dream. I'm asking for evidence that contradicts what is not only in Ned's dream, but is also supported both in the appendix of AGoT, and in the Lyanna entry of the app around one topic - Lyanna's death taking place at the Tower of Joy. So, yes, context is everything. The context of evaluating Lyanna's location when she dies is these three sources all support the idea she was at the Tower. We have nothing other than wishful thinking that indicates she was somewhere else.

Wolfmaid,

a quick point and I'll try to come back and respond to more later. You keep saying the Tower of Joy is in a desert. Please read the following:

I think it is time to stop pushing the idea the Tower of Joy is in a desert. It is in a mountain pass. In areas describe as much different than the desert sand to the south. Perhaps even in an area where roses grow.

Not only that, but Neds waking memory of the bed of blood scene has dead black roses. Only in the stylized dream sequence are blue roses there. And that could certainly be more of a dream representation of Lyanna's presence than anything - that's how interpret it, certainly. The blood across the sky is a common way for Martin to describe sunset - "the color of a blood bruise" is used often. He does this when he needs death (specifically blood) symbolism in a scene. So, Lyanna's "storm" of blue roses across a blood sky are basically a compound symbol indicating her presence there... again, according to my interpretation.

Of course since I identify Lyanna with the dying moon maiden archetype, her rose bits and moon blood in the sky, described as a storm, makes a ton of sense - that's the storm of the moon's death. The rain of bloody stone meteors, the storm of swords (flaming swords). Part of heliotrope as a flower idea is that the moon is a flower (a sun-drinking flower) and when the moon dies by Lightbringer insemination, she is de-flowered. The black moon meteors are bits of the moon goddess's body, and so the rose petals turn black in one scene, and are a bloody storm in another. They should be in the sky, just as Lyanna should be in the tower, to represent the celestial realm where the moon maiden died. 

[LmL]

(1) it is unreasonable and unrealistic to look to others concerning memory of where Lynna died. We have no idea who "they" are,Howland has yet to have his input so the only person we have to realistically look to is Ned.No one else.

This is disingenuous. I won't speak for others in this thread, but I am not looking to other characters in the novels to provide evidence of where Lyanna was when she died, nor am I asking what other characters in the novels may or may not know about Lyanna. I'm looking to you to show those indications from the text that she wasn't at the Tower of Joy. Because you are the one saying that she wasn't and maintaining that there is plenty, plenty of evidence that she wasn't. That "evidence" that you see and that I don't see is what I'm trying to obtain.

 

(2)He gives no detail about her because she was IMO not there.

Is this the evidence that she wasn't there?

 

(3)Outside of the dream to the events themselves.What's going on what's the atmosphere the climate etc.

Okay. What is going on? What is the atmosphere? What is the climate? It one thing to say "what's going on", etc., but you can't just leave it at that. Tell us what it is about these things leads you to believe what you contend.

 

(4)Secondly, concerning the room being filled with the smell of blood and roses. So she is in the desert supposedly in hiding there's no rose gardens

Where is the evidence that she was in the desert and that there were no rose gardens? Other than you saying it, I mean.

(Parenthetically, aren't the roses Ned remembers "dead and black" rather than fresh ones? If so, then nearby rose gardens aren't really necessary, are they? And isn't is possible that these roses could be one of the "not always literal" parts of the dream, i.e. metaphorical and symbolic roses?)

 

To sum up, the only thing you have been doing is raising questions about the story (which, don't get me wrong, is a fine thing to do). However, going on to claim that raising questions amounts to "evidence" for a contrary view is just absurd. A contrary view needs to be supported by references in the text. I haven't seen any provided.

And I'll repeat: I'm not asking for the points-of-view of any character. I would like to see the evidence that you have to support what you claim.

The bolded is what it comes down to. I've been asking this question for months, ever since I discovered there was a hardened group of people who are convinced RLJ isn't tue. 

Like you, I haven't seen it yet. I'm seeing a lot of torturing of language around the ToJ to create a sliver of doubt... and I keep saying, over and over again, "if Martin is fooling is with Lyanna at the tower, there will be clues about the real answer." And I mean actual evidence indicating where she was, pointing in another direction. It's the same with the larger RLJ question - if. it RLJ, where's the trail of breadcrumbs? I really appreciate SlyWren's investigation of parallel arcs in the Stark girls, and her. Jon / SOTM imagery. But those ideas really should be supported by other lines of evidence. Logistical evidence should be found to support the symbolic parallels. Whatever the answer is WILL have been foreshadowed, so we should be able to find it. Anyway. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yep. Using the tower as a trump card one way or another, given the text itself and the SSM--use caution.

Seems like if we really want to analyze the possibility of Arthur as Jon's father, we need to look at other evidence.

IE: how Sansa and Arya both echo their aunt. And when they are in real trouble with the Targ wannabes (Lannisters), a sworn brother (Yoren and Hound), a fighter (Yoren, Hound, Syrio), a KG who has rejected his cloak (Hound)--that's who gets them out. And who Sansa begins to fantasize about, despite his being the wannabe Targs' "loyal dog."  

Here and in other ways, Sansa and Arya give us information on Lyanna. Seems like we should pay attention to it.

The thing is, Clegane makes it clear he's not loyal to the Lannisters anymore.. Meanwhile, according to Ned's dream, Arthur still was very loyal to his KG vows. Quite a huge difference.

[LmL]

The thing is, Clegane makes it clear he's not loyal to the Lannisters anymore.. Meanwhile, according to Ned's dream, Arthur still was very loyal to his KG vows. Quite a huge difference.

That's why the symbolic / parallel arc type evidence needs to be supported by logistical evidence, because the parallels are murky. Every parallel has some things changed, and some left out, because Martin has to make the pattern fit the given situation. That's why he uses transformations or near-death situations to symbolize death, because he can't kill someone every time he wants to create a metaphor or parallel arc. 

[Ygrain]

The bolded is what it comes down to. I've been asking this question for months, ever since I discovered there was a hardened group of people who are convinced RLJ isn't tue. 

Like you, I haven't seen it yet. I'm seeing a lot of torturing of language around the ToJ to create a sliver of doubt... and I keep saying, over and over again, "if Martin is fooling is with Lyanna at the tower, there will be clues about the real answer." And I mean actual evidence indicating where she was, pointing in another direction. It's the same with the larger RLJ question - if. it RLJ, where's the trail of breadcrumbs? I really appreciate SlyWren's investigation of parallel arcs in the Stark girls, and her. Jon / SOTM imagery. But those ideas really should be supported by other lines of evidence. Logistical evidence should be found to support the symbolic parallels. Whatever the answer is WILL have been foreshadowed, so we should be able to find it. Anyway. 

Not to mention the torturing of logic, like Lyanna eloping and hiding with some guy at a place which another guy called "tower of joy" or Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar after the visit to the brothel being just an unrelated flash of thought aka red herring.

Months back, we were promised "plenty of clues" and the like when the essays come out, yet the plenty is about as plentiful and supportive as the RW feast, and about as valid. 

[Sly Wren]

The thing is, Clegane makes it clear he's not loyal to the Lannisters anymore.. Meanwhile, according to Ned's dream, Arthur still was very loyal to his KG vows. Quite a huge difference.

An enormous difference, yes. Sansa only ever gets shadows of what she actually needs. The Hound saves her from the crowd and Dontos tries to appease Joff's anger with the melon mace. The Hound refuses to beat Sansa. Arys Oakheart protests beating her, but then does so, still regretting his failure over that in his POV. The Hound is helpful, but very flawed with both Sansa and Arya. Same with Yoren and even Beric with Arya.

These girls, who very clearly hit Lyanna's plot points in Game and Storm, need something better. Sansa, who bookends Lyanna's known plot before we're halfway through Game has it nailed: there are no true knights. Yet she longs for one. And that's what she needs--not schemers. 

And, in Clash, the novel where Sansa repeatedly thinks how there are no true knights and how much she needs a true knight, who do we find out is the finest knight according to her father? A statement he makes with an emotion even little boy Bran notices? In all of the other novels, there are multiple Dayne reference. Ned's statement about Arthur in Clash is the only mention of Arthur in that novel. And it echoes Sansa's statements. 

Point is: Martin's been very clear that Sansa's plot is echoing Lyanna's. And Sansa is completely disillusioned re: bards and princes. But knights still protect her at times somewhat: Lothor Brune backs off Marillion. If we want to know who helped Lyanna and whom she may have loved, we should be keeping a close eye on Sansa.

[Sly Wren]

Not only that, but Neds waking memory of the bed of blood scene has dead black roses. Only in the stylized dream sequence are blue roses there. And that could certainly be more of a dream representation of Lyanna's presence than anything - that's how interpret it, certainly. The blood across the sky is a common way for Martin to describe sunset - "the color of a blood bruise" is used often. He does this when he needs death (specifically blood) symbolism in a scene. So, Lyanna's "storm" of blue roses across a blood sky are basically a compound symbol indicating her presence there... again, according to my interpretation.

Of course since I identify Lyanna with the dying moon maiden archetype, her rose bits and moon blood in the sky, described as a storm, makes a ton of sense - that's the storm of the moon's death. The rain of bloody stone meteors, the storm of swords (flaming swords). Part of heliotrope as a flower idea is that the moon is a flower (a sun-drinking flower) and when the moon dies by Lightbringer insemination, she is de-flowered. The black moon meteors are bits of the moon goddess's body, and so the rose petals turn black in one scene, and are a bloody storm in another. They should be in the sky, just as Lyanna should be in the tower, to represent the celestial realm where the moon maiden died. 

A strong possibility. But the narrative clearly has Sansa echoing her aunt. And Sansa has innately rejected the sun figure. And his whole family. She seeks a true knight. A hero. NOT a sun. 

The books aren't done, but given that Sansa and Arya are both moon maids who have rejected the fire-people wannabes and respect the fighters who save them; considering that Sansa's sexual thoughts have come back to the Hound more than once--Martin's made the tie between Sansa and Lyanna very clear. Same with Arya and Lyanna. Really seems like we should pay attention whom they seek out and whom they reject.

[wolfmaid7]

@Ygrain:

 

On my phone so quoting is a bit messed up.But are you serious? 

 

All we have seen from you guys regarding "this" issue is a whole lot of avoidance especially when confronted with things that shake and threatened your view. It becomes a "where are all the clues we don't see them" in hopes I believe of burning sound prospects in statements like the above.

 Your arguement for Lyanna being at the tower based on

1.a context of a dream

2.The app

Just got owned and no amount of diversion is going to change that.

 

Sly wren and Superunknown put an excellent esssy and arguement together that has Arthur as a very good prospect based on character echoing through Sansa and symbolism on a whole.

 

@ Everyone as we are winding down i"ll do the summary of points made in the thread when i go back to the hotel a bit later.Until keep up the good work .

[Darren Long]

No reason for the promise or to hide it from Jon, really if this were the case. 

[LmL]

A strong possibility. But the narrative clearly has Sansa echoing her aunt. And Sansa has innately rejected the sun figure. And his whole family. She seeks a true knight. A hero. NOT a sun. 

The books aren't done, but given that Sansa and Arya are both moon maids who have rejected the fire-people wannabes and respect the fighters who save them; considering that Sansa's sexual thoughts have come back to the Hound more than once--Martin's made the tie between Sansa and Lyanna very clear. Same with Arya and Lyanna. Really seems like we should pay attention whom they seek out and whom they reject.

I happen to see Sansa's salvation as moving towards self reliance and away from rescuers of any kind, particularly males. Just my take. 

I'd also caution against making to much out of specifics with these parallels - that's only one line of inquiry and it's a very murky one. 

[LmL]

 

On my phone so quoting is a bit messed up.But are you serious? 

 

All we have seen from you guys regarding "this" issue is a whole lot of avoidance especially when confronted with things that shake and threatened your view. It becomes a "where are all the clues we don't see them" in hopes I believe of burning sound prospects in statements like the above.

 Your arguement for Lyanna being at the tower based on

1.a context of a dream

2.The app

Just got owned and no amount of diversion is going to change that.

 

Sly wren and Superunknown put an excellent esssy and arguement together that has Arthur as a very good prospect based on character echoing through Sansa and symbolism on a whole.

 

@ Everyone as we are winding down i"ll do the summary of points made in the thread when i go back to the hotel a bit later.Until keep up the good work .

Wolfmaid, you've done nothing of the sort. In fact I think it is you who are refusing to acknowledge when your arguments have been rebutted. There's a lot more evidence that the dream and the app for Lyanna at the tower, and for you to attempt to say that's all there is lessens your credibility - not to me - but to everyone. One has only to read King Monkey's essay - part of your own Heresy essays - to realize this is not even close to true. You still have not presented any evidence indicating that Lya was anywhere but the tower, and none of your RLJ alternatives can get off the ground without doing so. Everything you've presented as "evidence" has been rebutted, and quite thoroughly. Abscense of evidence is not evidence of absence. Grossly misstating the evidence for and against is not going to convince anyone that RLJ has problems or that anything else is plausible. You need positive evidence of some other parentage, and you need to poke holes in RLJ. Your attempts to do so at the ToJ have fallen woefully short. 

i mean how many times do people have to point out to you that the description of the dream and it's three elements is not inside the actual dream? Yet you keep saying the only evidence is the dream. I'm not being mean or hyperbolic to suggest that lessens your credibility. 

[Melifeather]

Like it or not the World book is considered "semi-canon" by George, and he said only the ASOIAF books should be considered "canon". 

Even though the World book is said to be written by Maester Yandel, George humorously said the book was written by maesters, and I believe he was referring to himself, Elio, and Linda. It shouldn't be taken as a fact-based encyclopedia, but rather an in-world history book with a historical record of Lyanna's abduction that King Robert Baratheon believed to be true. This doesn't mean that is the way George will reveal it.

You may think we are only a small hard-core group that doesn't believe RLJ is true and that if it wasn't true, there should be clues that point in another direction. We assert that those clues do exist, and I believe the the truth can be found within parallel inversions of the current story. Each essay in the X+Y=J series presents the various alternatives that GRRM laid out for us to follow. Some are correct and some are just as wrong as R+L=J.

Just remember, we tried to show you the evidence, but you rejected it.

 

[Sly Wren]

I happen to see Sansa's salvation as moving towards self reliance and away from rescuers of any kind, particularly males. Just my take.

I agree that both Sansa and Arya are growing more independent. But they aren't superwomen. They're little more than children. Arya is still a child. They still need to work with people to get what they want. And Lyanna needed help, too. A wolf-blooded woman child of surpassing loveliness. 

 I'd also caution against making to much out of specifics with these parallels - that's only one line of inquiry and it's a very murky one. 

And if Martin had made the echo of Sansa and Lyanna murky, I'd be more cautious. But he's hit the highlights pretty clearly:

QUOTE ON LYANNA'S DEATH AND BURIAL: 

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I

QUOTE ON LADY'S DEATH AND BURIAL: "No," Ned said. "Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice." The words tasted of bile in his throat, but he forced them out. "If it must be done, I will do it."

Cersei Lannister regarded him suspiciously. "You, Stark? Is this some trick? Why would you do such a thing?"

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin." Game, Eddard III.

QUOTE ON SANSA'S TAKE ON BARDS WHO CALL HER A ROSE: Bring me? She did not like the sound of that. "Are you a guardsman now?" Littlefinger had dismissed the Eyrie's captain of guards and put Ser Lothor Brune in his place.

"Do you require guarding?" Marillion said lightly. "I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,' I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her."

I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him. Instead she nodded, and let him escort her down the tower steps and along a bridge. The High Hall had been closed as long as she'd been at the Eyrie. Sansa wondered why her aunt had opened it. Normally she preferred the comfort of her solar, or the cozy warmth of Lord Arryn's audience chamber with its view of the waterfall. Storm, Sansa VII

QUOTE ON LYANNA'S ROLE: Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

QUOTE ON SANSA'S ROLE: "Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

This offer did surprise him. "Sansa is only eleven." Game, Eddard I

Martin, in Game and affirmed in Storm, has VERY clearly tied Sansa to Lyanna's plot line. Through in Arya's defense of the squires and we know the initial cause of the death of the wolf-maid: Targ like spite and power plays against the wolf. That's the sun-figure's, dragon figure's, fire figure's role: initial spite. How the wolf-maid got pregnant we haven't seen. But we know what Martin is labelling as the initial source of the wolf-maid's death: Targ spite.

[LmL]

Like it or not the World book is considered "semi-canon" by George, and he said only the ASOIAF books should be considered "canon". 

Even though the World book is said to be written by Maester Yandel, George humorously said the book was written by maesters, and I believe he was referring to himself, Elio, and Linda. It shouldn't be taken as a fact-based encyclopedia, but rather an in-world history book with a historical record of Lyanna's abduction that King Robert Baratheon believed to be true. This doesn't mean that is the way George will reveal it.

You may think we are only a small hard-core group that doesn't believe RLJ is true and that if it wasn't true, there should be clues that point in another direction. We assert that those clues do exist, and I believe the the truth can be found within parallel inversions of the current story. Each essay in the X+Y=J series presents the various alternatives that GRRM laid out for us to follow. Some are correct and some are just as wrong as R+L=J.

Just remember, we tried to show you the evidence, but you rejected it.

 

Feather Crystal, I'm really tired of you heretics trying to conflate the two meanings of canon or pretending they don't exist. If we are talking canon as in authentic works of the author - the published books, as Martin says - then TWOIAF is canon. If we mean "is all of the info in TWOIAF definitely true?" as in, is all the info in TWOIAF "canonical info," then it's "pretty damn close," as George says. 

Please stop pretending like George is declaring one of his own books not part of the canon, because that is clearly not what he was saying. He was referring to the maesterly bias, which is the second meaning of canon - what we know to be true - not the first definition. 

Again, this is really not hard to grasp. TWOIAF has an unreliable narrator just as every book does. It's no different. 

When George says "only the books are canon" that means TWOIAF and D & E as well as the five novels. They are all "books" - I hope we agree on that - and they are written by George Martin. Since when is TWOIAF not a book?

[LmL]

I agree that both Sansa and Arya are growing more independent. But they aren't superwomen. They're little more than children. Arya is still a child. They still need to work with people to get what they want. And Lyanna needed help, too. A wolf-blooded woman child of surpassing loveliness. 

And if Martin had made the echo of Sansa and Lyanna murky, I'd be more cautious. But he's hit the highlights pretty clearly:

QUOTE ON LYANNA'S DEATH AND BURIAL: 

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I

QUOTE ON LADY'S DEATH AND BURIAL: "No," Ned said. "Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice." The words tasted of bile in his throat, but he forced them out. "If it must be done, I will do it."

Cersei Lannister regarded him suspiciously. "You, Stark? Is this some trick? Why would you do such a thing?"

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin." Game, Eddard III.

QUOTE ON SANSA'S TAKE ON BARDS WHO CALL HER A ROSE: Bring me? She did not like the sound of that. "Are you a guardsman now?" Littlefinger had dismissed the Eyrie's captain of guards and put Ser Lothor Brune in his place.

"Do you require guarding?" Marillion said lightly. "I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,' I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her."

I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him. Instead she nodded, and let him escort her down the tower steps and along a bridge. The High Hall had been closed as long as she'd been at the Eyrie. Sansa wondered why her aunt had opened it. Normally she preferred the comfort of her solar, or the cozy warmth of Lord Arryn's audience chamber with its view of the waterfall. Storm, Sansa VII

QUOTE ON LYANNA'S ROLE: Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

QUOTE ON SANSA'S ROLE: "Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

This offer did surprise him. "Sansa is only eleven." Game, Eddard I

Martin, in Game and affirmed in Storm, has VERY clearly tied Sansa to Lyanna's plot line. Through in Arya's defense of the squires and we know the initial cause of the death of the wolf-maid: Targ like spite and power plays against the wolf. That's the sun-figure's, dragon figure's, fire figure's role: initial spite. How the wolf-maid got pregnant we haven't seen. But we know what Martin is labelling as the initial source of the wolf-maid's death: Targ spite.

I totally get where you are coming from and you know I believe in looking for parallels. But they are murky because every parallel has some things changed, or inverted, or split out amongst several people (as with Sansa's bards). It's difficult to figure out which details are the same and which are charged for the specific iteration. That's why it's murky - you have to collect several parallel arcs and compare them all to the original, and see which details appear in multiple versions. That's what I meant. And then, we need to corroborate the symbolic parallels with other types of evidence. That's what I meant by saying be careful, and don't JUST look at parallels. Because Sansa does not solely exist to show us Lyanna. She's doing other things and her own things also. 

[Sly Wren]

I totally get where you are coming from and you know I believe in looking for parallels. But they are murky because every parallel has some things changed, or inverted, or split out amongst several people (as with Sansa's bards). It's difficult to figure out which details are the same and which are charged for the specific iteration. That's why it's murky - you have to collect several parallel arcs and compare them all to the original, and see which details appear in multiple versions. That's what I meant. And then, we need to corroborate the symbolic parallels with other types of evidence. That's what I meant by saying be careful, and don't JUST look at parallels. Because Sansa does not solely exist to show us Lyanna. She's doing other things and her own things also. 

And I get where you are coming from as well.

Being careful not to over apply symbolism and parallels is something to worry about. And Sansa is her own person.

But, when I get a chance, I will put the imagery and plot points together--I think they really hold. And it's not just Sansa: in Clash, where Sansa repeatedly thinks of and prays for a true knight she does not get, thinks what a true knight is, Bran remembers Ned's statement on Arthur--the finest knight. After finding the master of horse with a woman, Bran thinks of the finest knight. And then, "He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire" Clash, Bran III.

So, be careful--very good advice. But keeping an eye out? Also seems prudent. Especially since the references and parallels and connections get even more explicit in Storm.

[LmL]

And I get where you are coming from as well.

Being careful not to over apply symbolism and parallels is something to worry about. And Sansa is her own person.

But, when I get a chance, I will put the imagery and plot points together--I think they really hold. And it's not just Sansa: in Clash, where Sansa repeatedly thinks of and prays for a true knight she does not get, thinks what a true knight is, Bran remembers Ned's statement on Arthur--the finest knight. After finding the master of horse with a woman, Bran thinks of the finest knight. And then, "He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire" Clash, Bran III.

So, be careful--very good advice. But keeping an eye out? Also seems prudent. Especially since the references and parallels and connections get even more explicit in Storm.

Yeah you should put it together in an essay for sure, since you've got such a bead on it. I would recommend finding other Lyanna parallels and comparing them to Sansa. That's the approach I am taking with AA - I'm comparing all the characters who check some of the boxes to find what they have or do in common. 

[wolfmaid7]

Wolfmaid, you've done nothing of the sort. In fact I think it is you who are refusing to acknowledge when your arguments have been rebutted. There's a lot more evidence that the dream and the app for Lyanna at the tower, and for you to attempt to say that's all there is lessens your credibility - not to me - but to everyone. One has only to read King Monkey's essay - part of your own Heresy essays - to realize this is not even close to true. You still have not presented any evidence indicating that Lya was anywhere but the tower, and none of your RLJ alternatives can get off the ground without doing so. Everything you've presented as "evidence" has been rebutted, and quite thoroughly. Abscense of evidence is not evidence of absence. Grossly misstating the evidence for and against is not going to convince anyone that RLJ has problems or that anything else is plausible. You need positive evidence of some other parentage, and you need to poke holes in RLJ. Your attempts to do so at the ToJ have fallen woefully short. 

i mean how many times do people have to point out to you that the description of the dream and it's three elements is not inside the actual dream? Yet you keep saying the only evidence is the dream. I'm not being mean or hyperbolic to suggest that lessens your credibility. 

LML despite your clear intent to incite,inflame and be divisive the fact remains that you have failed and others have failed to put up a defense against this. The funny thing is as usuall you all made this about RLJ and threat to this theory thus completely forgetting that this was about Arthur.But you all couldn't help yourselves couldn't you? So insecurities began to show.

All you have to go on and everyone of you that insist Lyanna was at the tower Rhaegar called joy is

1. A dream that GRRM himself gave a warning about because he's right its not literal.Whether there are elements of facts dreams don't have a rhyme or reason to them.So factual elements while occuring in in the same space as the dream in real life may have happened far from each other.

a. Brings me to this point we can sync elements of dream to Ned's waking memories.The fight in the dream happened but better than that we got what he did with the bodies afterwards.Time and detail was slated to tell what Ned did with the bodies of his men and the kgs.Futhermore he remembers this event minus the symbolism very clearly.

b. He hears Lyanna scream,swords clash and rose petals across a blood streaked sky.We know that in reality it would be near impossible for Ned to hear Lyanna scream.For one not with all the clashing of swords and grunting of men and not if she was so bad her voice was a whispher.Her scream and the symbolism after it does'nt put her there.It may very well be the way dreams are mixing events.

2. What we do know is that Ned in the Crypt doesn't recall anything beyond Howland removing Lya's hand from him.Classic shock.

3. I was unaware that the Princes pass if that is where the toj is had a rose garden or any garden of a sort along its route.So somebody correct me there if i'm wrong.

But yet what you all come to me with is 

1. The dream puts her there with no physical evidence in the form of even Ned recollecting that she is.But as usuall the absence of evidence arguement is not evidence of absence is what you all fall back on.Depiste being shown look all you ahve to do is critically think about this.

2. The app. Dude look the app reflects common thinking that's it.Accept that or accept that Cersie and Jamie's kids are Robert's and Jon is Ned's son.You question the above because clues point to Jon not being Ned's. So don't knock clues being there that support Lya not being at the tower.Which really doesn't prove who fathered her.Soooooo.