Do you consider these characters villains?

[Ser Hyle]

 

Bran Stark - gray area - not a villain, but guilty of an evil act - slightly excused by his being a child.

 

 

I'm curious as to why Bran would even be in consideration as a villain. The 'evil act' you speak of was warging Hodor, I assume. It was first done out of desperation and very likely saved the lives of four people including Hodor himself. I would hardly consider that evil. Yes, he does it more later on, but there's no malicious intent; it's clear he loves Hodor. Hodor is also aware what Bran is doing and it doesn't seem to cause him to resent Bran for it.

 

[Ser Hyle]

Whilst Tywin has committed many evil acts I would not call him a villain, when he was ruling Westeros as Hand of the King he was very capable and good for the realm. He is extraordinarily hard and ruthless but he does not use his power solely for evil, he brought peace and prosperity to the realm-which is more than can be said for any of the current kings/queens.

This is ridiculous.

[John Doe]

And true.so at worst. she is Dexter

[Lion of the West]

This is ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure that's how all the texts in the books goes on the subject.

[Taenqyrhae]

I'm curious as to why Bran would even be in consideration as a villain. The 'evil act' you speak of was warging Hodor, I assume. It was first done out of desperation and very likely saved the lives of four people including Hodor himself. I would hardly consider that evil. Yes, he does it more later on, but there's no malicious intent; it's clear he loves Hodor. Hodor is also aware what Bran is doing and it doesn't seem to cause him to resent Bran for it.

 

He has broken Hodor in, but in his more recent wargings of Hodor, which are for the intention of exploring the caves and being with Meera, he describes Hodor as disappearing off inside himself - not really sharing in the experiences.  In the early warging attempts, Hodor suffered anguish that had him trembling and gagging.  Have you ever suffered something so painful it made you throw up in your mouth a little?  Hodor did, Bran knew this, and Bran kept doing so for reasons that were not related to self-preservation.  He's trained Hodor to not resist his intrusion and Hodor responds by doing something rape victims often do and people forced to go through other unpleasant things do.  Disappearing inside himself for hours on end as his body is possessed has to be harmful to Hodor's psyche.

[Ser Hyle]

Bold are the villains.

Bran Stark- Eats human flesh and mind rapes Hodor for now hes more of a villain
Arya Stark- Kills people but still not evil deep down, grey character 

 

Why aren't you holding Bran to the same standards, or you somehow believe that Bran is 'evil deep down'?

Arya has actually killed innocent people. I'm not excusing it, but you can't ignore the context that Bran was a wolf when he ate human flesh; it didn't provide his body with any sustenance/nourishment. Also he doesn't warg Hodor for shits n' giggles or so he can have a big viable body to go and do evil acts with; he does it because it's necessary - either to stop him from wailing and getting them all killed or for completing his journey down the caves. I can't fathom how people would consider Bran a villain at this point in the story. It's almost like arguing that Ramsay is a hero.

[Ser Hyle]

He has broken Hodor in, but in his more recent wargings of Hodor, which are for the intention of exploring the caves and being with Meera, he describes Hodor as disappearing off inside himself - not really sharing in the experiences.  In the early warging attempts, Hodor suffered anguish that had him trembling and gagging.  Have you ever suffered something so painful it made you throw up in your mouth a little?  Hodor did, Bran knew this, and Bran kept doing so for reasons that were not related to self-preservation.  He's trained Hodor to not resist his intrusion and Hodor responds by doing something rape victims often do and people forced to go through other unpleasant things do.  Disappearing inside himself for hours on end as his body is possessed has to be harmful to Hodor's psyche.

To me there's a vast difference between taking advantage of someone for the purpose of utility rather than malice vs. purposely ordering the torture and murder of innocent people like Tywin and Cersei are guilty of. In this context, if Bran = villain, Tywin/Cersei = a new word that means 'worse than villain'

[Taenqyrhae]

To me there's a vast difference between taking advantage of someone for the purpose of utility rather than malice vs. purposely ordering the torture and murder of innocent people like Tywin and Cersei are guilty of. In this context, if Bran = villain, Tywin/Cersei = a new word that means 'worse than villain'

All of Tywin's decisions were utilitarian.  One could argue that Tywin was justified for some of his atrocities in that he was trying to preserve his family's power.  Bran brain-raped Hodor because he was bored and didn't like getting left alone by his friends.

[John Doe]

All of Tywin's decisions were utilitarian.  One could argue that Tywin was justified for some of his atrocities in that he was trying to preserve his family's power.  Bran brain-raped Hodor because he was bored and didn't like getting left alone by his friends.

This exactly. 

[Wavey Sauce]

how can she be seen as a villain? . if you don't count the stable boy, she has only kill some scummy people. She also care for smallfolks. at worst, she is an antihero.

Um I think you are agreeing with me, or didnt read my post right. I said in no way is she a villain at all

[Ser Hyle]

All of Tywin's decisions were utilitarian.  One could argue that Tywin was justified for some of his atrocities in that he was trying to preserve his family's power.  Bran brain-raped Hodor because he was bored and didn't like getting left alone by his friends.

You're comparing the possession of one man against the murder of babies, the gang rape of a child, sexual assault of his own son and the rampant torture, murder, dislocation, and impoverishment of thousands, maybe tens of thousands of farmers and villagers. You don't see the difference in scale and scope of these crimes?

Also, the perpetrator of the 'brain rape' by someone who is 'bored and left alone by his friends' is an 11 year old child, who very likely doesn't fully understand the level at which he's violating Hodor because Hodor seems to accept it/gotten used to it.

[Nevets]

Tywin is not evil because he did what was necessary to preserve the status of his family or the realm.  He is evil because he went way beyond what was necessary.  It was not necessary to send Gregor Clegane rampaging across the Riverlands in response to Tyrion's kidnapping.  It was not necessary to order Tysha Gang-raped.  He has this idea that overreaction is the way to maintain his and his family's power, and that has lead to atrocities and other evil acts.

Arya:  She killed Insurance Man because she felt she had no choice and allowed herself to be convinced he had cheated his customers.  Also, given that he is a FM target, itis likely that if she hadn't killed him, someone else would have.  In any case, we don't know the real reason for his death.  As for Dareon, he did abandon his brother crows in Braavos to have a good time, and did desert the NW, which is a capital offense where Arya is from.  While I am troubled by this act (I think it is her worst act), I don't see that it makes her evil.  Troubled, yes, but not evil.  Not yet.  But I think that if she remains with the FM very long, she could very easily go down the road toward becoming evil.  But she is not there yet.

As for Bran, he is too young and inexperienced to know better.  Nuff said.

[Taenqyrhae]

You're comparing the possession of one man against the murder of babies, the gang rape of a child, and the rampant torture, murder, and dislocation, and impoverishment of thousands, maybe tens of thousands of farmers and villagers. You don't see the difference in scale and scope of these crimes?

Also, the perpetrator of the 'brain rape' by someone who is 'bored and left alone by his friends' is an 11 year old child, who very likely doesn't fully understand the level at which he's violating Hodor because Hodor seems to accept it/gotten used to it.

Bran has an understanding of Hodor's distress that nobody has - he has felt the pain, tasted the vomit, senses him withdrawing within himself.  He has been told that doing what he is doing is considered very wrong, and I doubt he would do it if Hodor could say anything other than "Hodor" - Bran knows he has the perfect victim, a mentally damaged stable boy who is powerless to stop a young prince from exploiting him repeatedly.  Bran feels shame over what he does, but does it anyway because the power is too tempting for his morality to stop him from taking it.  He keeps it secret from everybody except his victim.

Sadly, if Bran ends up hurting Meera with Hodor, as foreshadowed, it's going to get even worse.  Bran is going to abandon Hodor to accept all the blame.  The poor, kind, child-like servant who has been a literal beast of burden for the nobility for years is going to also take on the burden of blame for Bran's rape or worse of Meera.

[Son of Man]

All of Tywin's decisions were utilitarian.  One could argue that Tywin was justified for some of his atrocities in that he was trying to preserve his family's power.  Bran brain-raped Hodor because he was bored and didn't like getting left alone by his friends.

Ok, fair point.  It is hard to judge a high official or a ruler acting in an official capacity.  President George Bush sent men to battle, to capture Saddam Hussein and many people, many innocent Iraqi civilians died in the process.  That decision and that official act resulted in the deaths of more people than from John Malvo's Bushmaster rifle.  Does that mean that President Bush is more evil (for lack of a better term) because he ordered men to capture an enemy head of state, killing many to accomplish the objective?  It's not always easy judging people in Tywin's position when the act is not personal.  If Aerys considered it legal, what happened to the Reynes, then from a legal angle, Tywin did no wrong.  The moral perspective can be different.  Tywin did it because the Reynes rebelled against his family.  His response was brutal, to set his world to rights and to prevent anyone from challenging his house again.  My opinion, I think Tywin went overboard.  But we don't live in that world where failure and weakness can mean death rather than losing your monthly sales commission.   Theirs is a less-developed system, and one means to preserve and protect your power, your life, is to put the fright on your potential rivals to make them think twice about crossing you.  Consequences for them are different from what they are for us.  Take Slynt.  Was Janos murdered?  No, an execution is different from murder.  Yet the results are the same.  

[Ser Hyle]

Bran has an understanding of Hodor's distress that nobody has - he has felt the pain, tasted the vomit, senses him withdrawing within himself.  He has been told that doing what he is doing is considered very wrong, and I doubt he would do it if Hodor could say anything other than "Hodor" - Bran knows he has the perfect victim, a mentally damaged stable boy who is powerless to stop a young prince from exploiting him repeatedly.  Bran feels shame over what he does, but does it anyway because the power is too tempting for his morality to stop him from taking it.  He keeps it secret from everybody except his victim.
Sadly, if Bran ends up hurting Meera with Hodor, as foreshadowed, it's going to get even worse.  Bran is going to abandon Hodor to accept all the blame.  The poor, kind, child-like servant who has been a literal beast of burden for the nobility for years is going to also take on the burden of blame for Bran's rape or worse of Meera.

To me there's a disconnect between immoral/harmful acts like Bran/Hodor and villainy. A villain in a story is an antagonist in the plot. He may turn out to be, but he's not currently .Bran is much closer to a protagonist up to this point. 

If Bran does harm Meera as Hodor and then allow Hodor to take the blame, he will still be light-years behind the unnecessary pain and suffering that Tywin has caused innocent people. Like I said, If Bran is a 'villain' in this scenario, we need a new word to describe Tywin's villainy.

 

[talvikorppi]

The more I think about it...

Nobody is actually a "villain", not in the literary sense.

Sure, there are some bad guys. Villaneous guys.

Maybe some guys (Roose Bolton, Bowen Marsh etc.) have done villaneous acts, but they're not "villains", in the straight forward sense. Fair enough, most aSoIaF/GOT fans hate the Boltons

We love to hate Ramsay, bit he's not a villain, just a total shit.

GRRM's writing doesn't do outright villans. Very many "bad" persons/characters, or "bad" ones, who turn out to be "good".

[Ser Hyle]

The more I think about it...

Nobody is actually a "villain", not in the literary sense.

Sure, there are some bad guys. Villaneous guys.

Maybe some guys (Roose Bolton, Bowen Marsh etc.) have done villaneous acts, but they're not "vilains", in the straight forwerd sense of the word. Fair enough, most aSoIaF/GOT fans hate the Boltons

We love to hate Ramsay, bit he's not a villain, just a total shit.

GRRM's writing doesn't have outright villans. Very many "bad" persons/characters, or "bad" ones, who turn out to be "good"

 

vil·lain

ˈvilən/

noun

 

1. 1.

   (in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.

By this literary definition, tthe Red Wedding for example, rendered Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey villains.

 

[John Doe]

To me there's a disconnect between immoral/harmful acts like Bran/Hodor and villainy. A villain in a story is an antagonist in the plot. He may turn out to be, but he's not currently .Bran is much closer to a protagonist up to this point. 

If Bran does harm Meera as Hodor and then allow Hodor to take the blame, he will still be light-years behind the unnecessary pain and suffering that Tywin has caused innocent people.

1. That would be wrong though, those words are not interchangeable. Take "Catch me if you can" for example, the cop played by Tom Hanks is certainly not a villain even though he is the antagonist.

 

2. Don't forget the suffering of the innocent caused by Robb Stark, if you are talking about the war.

[Taenqyrhae]

To me there's a disconnect between immoral/harmful acts like Bran/Hodor and villainy. A villain in a story is an antagonist in the plot. Bran is not this. He may turn out to be, but he's not.

If Bran does harm Meera as Hodor and then allow Hodor to take the blame, he will still be light-years behind the unnecessary pain and suffering that Tywin has caused innocent people. Like I said, If Bran is a 'villain' in this scenario, we need a new word to describe Tywin's villainy.

 

Evil has less to do with the consequences for your actions and more to do with the reasons behind those actions.  Doing harmful things for selfish reasons is more evil than doing harmful things for non-selfish reasons.

By definition a villain in literature is someone whose evil actions are important to the plot - being the primary antagonist is not part of that definition.  Bran's warging of Hodor is important to the plot.  The actions are evil because they are harmful and performed for selfish reasons.  The fact that there are people who do worse things in the story does not diminish the villainy of Bran's exploitation of Hodor.  Humbert Humbert is a villain, even though he is the protagonist of Lolita.  It does not matter that he only kills one person, who was a child pornographer - his exploitation of Lolita, even though she grows used to it and starts using it as a way to manipulate him, is an evil act.  There are worse people in the world - even in the book, one could argue that Quilty is a more evil person than Humbert…but that doesn't mean we need a new word to describe mass murderers to keep them in a different category from Humbert.

[Ser Hyle]

1. That would be wrong though, those words are not interchangeable. Take "Catch me if you can" for example, the cop played by Tom Hanks is certainly not a villain even though he is the antagonist.

 

2. Don't forget the suffering of the innocent caused by Robb Stark, if you are talking about the war.

1. See the above definition of villain. Antagonist was the wrong term.

 

2. Robb Stark didn't hire a renowned group of beyond brutal torturers rapists and murderers like the Bloody Mummers     and order them to rape, pillage, torture and murder innocent people. There's no comparison.