Do you consider these characters villains?

[Hound_Reborn]

I think it's up to our perception on whom we think is a villain with certain characters, sure there are some clear cut villains like Tywin, Cersei, Ramsey, Gregor & Littlefinger.

However other characters listed could be put in the grey area & everyone likes a certain character & would defend them to the end of their lives or could just hate them by the way either the characters are written or how their chapters go.

To sum my opinion up in this list, it'll go like this;

Jaime Lannister: Villain turning more morally grey: He's using his mind more than his ability to fight, sure he did the right thing killing the King, which saved many lives, but he still pushed Bran out of a window, I feel he's been twisted by his family & is realizing he needs to stop effectively be his family's puppet (I personally think Cersei manipulated Jaime into becoming an unpleasant person & his father got it in his head, "If Targaryans can have children with their sisters, why can't I?")
Tywin Lannister: Villain, I don't need to say more what's been said.
Tyrion Lannister: Both, he knows he's not a good man, but he does have that occasion where he does the right thing, but I feel he's a bit more complicated than Jaime personally, with his Aunt saying he was more like Tywin than Jaime or Cersei were, I feel that was for his ruthlessness & cunning & his political ability(though I feel Tyrion is infintely more clever than Tywin ever was).
Cersei Lannister: Villain, and a really stupid one too. I really don't like her chapters either personally.
Petyr Baelish: A creepy villain (though I think the book is more subtle, as it always is, show Baelish just looks dodgy, even if you don't know who he is)
Varys: Even after all these books, I don't know. I don't trust him, but I don't he wants to watch the world burn like Littlefinger. Not sure on him personally. I would never put him in the good category though.
Theon Greyjoy: As Theon, Villain, he's a prat to everyone I felt no sympathy for him, as Reek, you pity him, but for me he'll never be good, but I feel sympathy for Reek, but none for Theon.
Victarion Greyjoy: Villain who's as thick as a castle wall. Plot against your brother all you want, you're gonna get caught.
Aeron Greyjoy: Villain, in a bit of a state too, I personally think all the Ironborn are villains especially with what they do outside of their lands, which they can't seem to even keep stable.
Bran Stark: Good, sure warging into Hodor isn't very nice, but that's the worst I think he's done.
Arya Stark: Good, she's done bad things, but that was just to get out of situations that could really only be solved by how she could deal with them best. She's a survivor, that's why she done well with Sandor, a fellow survivor whom also did wrong, but at heart was a person more than his scary (even Arya gets creeped out by him) than his appearance would suggest
Stannis Baratheon: Good, but more on the grey area, he's done wrong, but he feels remorse for it, Melissandre hasn't got him wrapped around her finger, he's been an atheist since he saw his parents die. I'm sure it's his wife that follows her & Stannis abides, but keeps an open mind to what she says, heck if he followed her Davos would be on a burning stake.
Daenerys Targaryan: Ugh, here we go to my least favorite character in literature. I'm going to say... Villain. I just can't pity her, she' had everything handed to her, from armies (granted she loses a bit of it when Drogo dies, but then gets) Dragons, a new army (even though they seem pretty crap in Meereen). She also has this delusional God complex & don't get me started on Astapor, she cannibalized the city, which is now spreading disease. She hasn't got a clue what she's doing & has caused more damage than good. You might say she's got good intentions, but if you're going to continue with death & destruction, you're just kidding yourself. Also she may think these people are freedmen & women, but I feel they're slaves to her now, which again, despite your so called good intentions, you've caused these people to starve to death, let them commit crimes & let them get away with it & killed potentially 163(was it that? I can't remember) innocent higher ups.
Just something that some people may find controversial of me, but I personally only think people like Daenerys because she's pretty, if she looked like Umbridge, no-one would give two sh*ts. That's honestly what I get from show only fans & book fans would try to say she's a savior, but honestly, a savior wouldn't have nearly every place they've been to destroyed.

Rant Over.

[imaginepageant]

Every character is a villain to some other character. Ned was a villain in Cersei's eyes. Robb was a villain to every innocent man enlisted to fight for the Lannisters. Jon was a villain to the wildlings he pledged loyalty to and then betrayed and killed. Dany was a villain to the slavers.

And every villain is a hero in their own mind.

As for who I consider a villain... probably only the Others, and that's only because we don't know their motive yet, so they seem to be no more than beings of doom and destruction at this point. Wait, okay, and Ramsay, because he's just plain sadistic.

Two of the series' greatest "villains," Cersei and Tywin, aren't villains in my mind, because I understand why they're doing what they're doing. Tywin didn't want Robb Stark dead because he loved killing people, it was just the quickest and easiest way to win the war, so he took the opportunity. It may not have been "honourable," but it saved the lives of the crown's forces that would have died in a drawn-out war, and that means that the crown is left with better defenses to deal with the next threat against it. Cersei was more relatable earlier on in the series—like Tywin, she did what was necessary to protect herself and her family and their future—and as the story goes on, her "villainous" actions can be attributed to her building madness. If the legal system can differentiate between guilt and insanity, why shouldn't readers of literature?

[John Doe]

 I really gotta rewatch, it's been mad long. I coulda sworn Posca gets taken over by Antony in the will.

But all slavers are the same. It's not like The Wire where cops and robbers are to be despised, yet Bunk and Michael are still applauded. All slavers are evil, we are not meant to own each other; Owning slaves is abysmal but making your living off the trade of them is beyond.

I agree that some slaves do better, we see Tyrion and the grotesques live better lives then most smallfolk. But their kids are destined to wear jingle bells, and what if they don't look as funny as Tyrion? Or clever as Posca? They'll be auncitoned cheap, away from its family.

And the life of a smallfolk sucks, sure. But it's not like in Slavers Bay there were either nobleman or slaves, they had their poor too. Volantis has its peasants unable to vote, and slaves in excess. 

Also, if a slave is the recipient of a crime, nothing happens. If a smallfolk is they can go to court and see Ned or Randyll. Lol I grant you being a smallfolk sucks, but there's at least options.

 

It's slightly better, but not much.

Not all slavers are the same, I think it's Dany who remarks slaver's bay is worse than Qarth.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think there's some confusion in this thread.  A villain is a literary construction, IMO, not a judgement on the moral stature of a person.  It has to do with whether a character is standing in the Heros way, and doing at least some Bad Stuff to stop the hero.

i would say in this way that Theon and Jaime were clearly villains in Bran/Robb/catelyn and Neds stories, respectively.  Later their role changed.  Jaime has become IMO a hero in the story.  Theon is a victim so far, neither hero nor villain.  Tywin and cersei are the big villains in tyrions story, as well as for the Starks.  Baelish is a villain across the board.  Boltons, freys, the green grace, hizdar, Gregor, all villains.

Another example, i was wondering why of the greyjoys, OP only included Aeron and Vic?  Euron and Balon are villains, certainly.  Victarion is a sort of protagonist in the way all POVs are but he's not a hero or a villain despite doing horrible stuff.  Aeron is... Just a kind of there.  

[INCBlackbird]

I think there's some confusion in this thread.  A villain is a literary construction, IMO, not a judgement on the moral stature of a person.  It has to do with whether a character is standing in the Heros way, and doing at least some Bad Stuff to stop the hero.

i would say in this way that Theon and Jaime were clearly villains in Bran/Robb/catelyn and Neds stories, respectively.  Later their role changed.  Jaime has become IMO a hero in the story.  Theon is a victim so far, neither hero nor villain.  Tywin and cersei are the big villains in tyrions story, as well as for the Starks.  Baelish is a villain across the board.  Boltons, freys, the green grace, hizdar, Gregor, all villains.

Another example, i was wondering why of the greyjoys, OP only included Aeron and Vic?  Euron and Balon are villains, certainly.  Victarion is a sort of protagonist in the way all POVs are but he's not a hero or a villain despite doing horrible stuff.  Aeron is... Just a kind of there.  

I didn't include characters that in my experience are universally considered villains (that's also why Ramsay, Roose, the mountain... aren't on the list) because the idea was to talk about the characters that people disagree about, to talk about the controversy arround them. it's not really anything new to state that Euron is a villain, I don't think anyone would say he's not.

I have to say that I don't fully agree with you actually, because when I look up definitions of what a villain is it's usually a combination of doing evil things, having bad intensions and being opposed to the protagonist. So I don't think it's just about the perspectives of the protagonists, that's a part of it for sure but calling a character a villain is often a judgement on the characters moral stature. Though I do think that people have different stances on what a villain exactly means, that's why I asked for definitions because it makes it easier to understand why someone would call a certain character a villain, clearifying what your definition of it is creates consistency. So I guess this is your definition which is totally fine, but I don't think it's "THE" definition so to say. Also because I don't think it's a word that has a completely objective definition, it's not that simple.

[Hugorfonics]

It's slightly better, but not much.

Not all slavers are the same, I think it's Dany who remarks slaver's bay is worse than Qarth.

 That's my point. Qarth may not truly be the greatest city that ever was or will be, but at least it doesn't thrive (almost) solely on suppling slaves to the entire world like Slavers Bay.

Owning slaves is evil. But the folks by the Bay cut off balls and babies and puppies while the girls are put in pleasure houses for training. It's a district where rapists and murderers are the most common profession. Slavers Bay is pure evil. 

Nah being a smallfolks monumently better. They can move up in the world(any knight can make a knight, or not even like Dunk), they can travel, own taverns, become a maester, septon or sailer, in the ironislands they can captain a ship and vote at kingsmoots. 

Slaves are chained more then not. Whatever they want, they can't do. They're destined, as are they're decendents to wear a collar forever. The only way out is to escape and become a fugitive like Rorge or Gared. Being a slave is the worst thing to be

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

 

 

If the average age of those executed is 25 year old.  That means those people have been living off the backs of their slaves for that many years!  That's a choice, not an imposition.  They chose to continue to benefit, chose to ignore what went on at the Walk of Punishment because it paid for their life style.  The day their comrades nailed 163 children to the cross sealed their fate to pay back for all of those years of living off the suffering of others.  People always have choices.  They could have left the city and gone into exile, to live a harsh but honest life.  Instead they chose to continue to profit from the slave trade. _*If they have been raised that way, and raised to think it is ok to inflict suffering and enslave people, then they do deserve execution.  They're not Dany's victims.  They're the victims of their own brutal, selfish, and hard-hearted upbringing.  Their forefathers and their ancestors will have to shoulder that guilt. 

_*This is like a pit bull who was raised brutally and ended up killing all of the dogs in the neighborhood that now had to be euthanized.  Feel sorry for the dog, don't hate the dog, but the blame is not on the judge who ordered the vet to administer the dose.  Blame it on the dog's human parents who raised it that way, raised it so that it no longer knew compassion.  Those slavers who got executed have their forefathers to blame.

 OMG very good, sir.  The masters came from a culture so devoid of compassion and a culture that robbed the freedom, dignity, and lives from millions of people over a thousand years that they all have blood on their hands.  They could have rebelled against their own class.  They could have started a revolution if they felt any compassion at all for the slaves.  Instead they chose to continue benefiting from the slave trade and to continue enjoying the fighting pits.  Just like the pit bull in your analogy, they will have to be put down to ensure the continued freedom for the former slaves and the permanent end to slavery. 

Their upbringing created monsters who basically do what Ramsay does, except do it as a profession.  Is it any less evil because it's done for business rather than recreation?  I think not.  Still, their system and their way of life cannot be allowed to continue.  Dany is absolutely on the right to say, "they can live in my world or die in theirs."  The masters are like trained pit bulls that know no other way.

I hope you don't mind me changing the color of your fonts.   

 Owning slaves is evil. But the folks by the Bay cut off balls and babies and puppies while the girls are put in pleasure houses for training. It's a district where rapists and murderers are the most common profession. Slavers Bay is pure evil. 

Slaves are chained more then not. Whatever they want, they can't do. They're destined, as are they're decendents to wear a collar forever. The only way out is to escape and become a fugitive like Rorge or Gared. Being a slave is the worst thing to be

 

I don't necessarily subscribe that there is such a thing as pure evil, but Slaver's Bay and the owners come the closest.  They deserved to be punished.

 

[ultravioletgaia]

 

A villain is basically the "bad guy" in a story.  The antagonist, the Voldemort.  Ramsay is a villain.  Arya, Bran and Daenerys are all protagonists.  Like I said, morally ambiguous actions doesn't make a character a villain.  It can make them a bad person, yeah, but right now they're clearly protagonists and we're supposed to be rooting for them.

If you're trying to say that you think their actions make them bad people, then fine, argue that.  But I don't see how a character having flaws makes them a villain.

As i said, Bran and Daenerys are protagonist. But i think Arya is a villain. And i have never rooted for her and we are not 'supposed' to be rooting for somebody. As George himself said "the villain is the hero of the other side"

[SeanF]

As i said, Bran and Daenerys are protagonist. But i think Arya is a villain. And i have never rooted for her and we are not 'supposed' to be rooting for somebody. As George himself said "the villain is the hero of the other side"

I think Arya is a very tragic character.  I don't see her as a villain at this stage.  If she finishes as one, then it will be because of the horrors she's had to endure.

[YclGlr]

Jaime Lannister - He is no villain at all. It is palpable that he always wished to be a stereotype gallant knight. Yet serving for The Mad King affected his character development in a very bad way. Eddard Stark's and other people's judgement did not actually help either. He should not have been condemned as a Kingslayer or a man without honour. What he did was something he should have done a long time ago. Bias against him has made him who he is. He was just a lost soul and found it with the help of Brienne.

Tywin Lannister - He is definitely no angel, but he is no villain either. Although he is utterly cruel when he is defied, he is not a sadistic character.

Tyrion Lannister - Definitely not a villain.

Cersei Lannister - I dont know if she is a villain or not but she is definitely a stupid, arrogant wench.

Petyr Baelish - Definitely villain.

Varys - So far it seems he is a ''good'' character who understands what needs to be done for the ''good'' of the common people. If he ever gets to have a House of his own, his word should be ''It is for the greated good.''

Theon Greyjoy - He is not a villain but he is very stupid, which are generally the same thing.

Victarion Greyjoy - So far he seems like a barbaric guy. Uncivilized as he is, hard to decide whether he is good or not. But such a barbaric figure could not be ''good'' even he wished to be. 

Aeron Greyjoy - Religious nutjobs. The way i see it, a freaking villain, just like the High Sparrow.

Bran Stark - A stereotype character so far, seems he has no evil in his, yet he is just a child now, we shall see.

Arya Stark - She does not kill without a good reason, however she has a potential to become the utmost villain.

Stannis Baratheon - To me he is villain. Not that in heart, but his understanding of just is just too harsh, too unforgiving. He can only be a good person in an utopic world where everyone behaves.

Daenerys Targaryan - She also has a good heart, yet because of ignorance she is also villain. She did not think of the consequences of ending slave trade, attacking Astapor, Yunkai, Meeren. Trusting in her freakish dragons, she saw it within her rights to do whatever she likes. As it is revealed by Tyrion later, most of the slavers are no different than most of the lords in Westeros. And most of the slaves have as much right as the common folk in Westeros. Being the stupid child she is and with the additional arrogance of having dragons she has condemned all the slavers as ''monsters''. And calling those people her children, the arrogance of it!

Excluding Ramsay, Roose, Walder, Cersei, Amory, Gregor, Daenerys is definitely the worst character in the books to me. 

[Wavey Sauce]

As i said, Bran and Daenerys are protagonist. But i think Arya is a villain. And i have never rooted for her and we are not 'supposed' to be rooting for somebody. As George himself said "the villain is the hero of the other side"

arya a villain? With all the crap she has been through and dealt with? Hope your somewhat kidding

[Taenqyrhae]

arya a villain? With all the crap she has been through and dealt with? Hope your somewhat kidding

Theon has been through a lot more, still a villain.  Having a tough life doesn't excuse you from being a villain, though often it is the cause of someone becoming a villain.

Because of her young age, I don't consider Arya a villain, though.  She is amoral and misguided, dangerous and possibly permanently broken, but it's not her fault she spent a good portion of her life living the life of a child soldier and was recruited into an ancient death cult that has been brainwashing her.

[Hugorfonics]

I don't necessarily subscribe that there is such a thing as pure evil, but Slaver's Bay and the owners come the closest.  They deserved to be punished.

 

 Yeah, that sounds pretty cliche. But you know, fuck slavers. I would disagree with the punishment aspect. Was Jorah properly punished? I'd say to excess, though that's the only real way he could understand the evil he committed. 

As grimy as the wise masters were, they were law abiding citizens, Dany does not punish the previous rapes, because most of her subject were rapists, she can't geld them all or something to that accord. Dany believes in rehiblitation. If Kyra can look at her rapist as a hero, then I see no reason to punish before the chance of amends. 

[John Doe]

 That's my point. Qarth may not truly be the greatest city that ever was or will be, but at least it doesn't thrive (almost) solely on suppling slaves to the entire world like Slavers Bay.

Owning slaves is evil. But the folks by the Bay cut off balls and babies and puppies while the girls are put in pleasure houses for training. It's a district where rapists and murderers are the most common profession. Slavers Bay is pure evil. 

Slaves are chained more then not. Whatever they want, they can't do. They're destined, as are they're decendents to wear a collar forever. The only way out is to escape and become a fugitive like Rorge or Gared. Being a slave is the worst thing to be

 

I agree, however I do think it's ot the act of owning slaves that make these people evil, but how they treat them. It's the same as with westerosi lords.

[Hugorfonics]

I agree, however I do think it's ot the act of owning slaves that make these people evil, but how they treat them. It's the same as with westerosi lords.

 But if they weren't treated like that they wouldn't be slaves. They'd be useless and cheap or master killers and run aways. Slaves Bay is a business that's been mastered its production for centuries.

Westeroi Lords administer laws and such. Otherwise they have no contact with the smallfolk. A master is always in possession of its slave, the difference is staggering.

Lords can do evil, but they can also do good like pay and promote. The best a master can do is not whip. 

Having zero liberty is an inexcusable way of living, if someone makes you live like that, they're evil.

 

[Batbob45]

arya a villain? With all the crap she has been through and dealt with? Hope your somewhat kidding

how can she be seen as a villain? . if you don't count the stable boy, she has only kill some scummy people. She also care for smallfolks. at worst, she is an antihero.

[John Doe]

Arya is pretty much a psychopath.

[Ser Hyle]

Ah the only one that really leans toward villain for me is Baelish, and that is because, from what we've learned about him, he is willing to do anything - screw anyone over, kill anyone and climb over their bodies - to get what he wants. And all he seems to want is power or something else equally selfish or he just likes to sow misery. I just don't see any redeeming motivations for the lives lost in the conflict he started. 

The other characters on the list have all done bad things, but some of their motivations are justifiable and understandable. The ends justifies the means type approach that Twyin employs can be reprehensible, but I did think he was sincere in his comments about how crazy it is that killing less people at dinner is better than killing more in an going war. 

Sorry to not be able to add anything more, but it's the last day of my short work week and my ability to think is waning quickly.  

You don't consider Cersei a villain? She gives innocent people to Qyburn to experiment on and ultimately kill. What could possibly lead you to think those actions (among many other terrible things) are "justifiable and understandable"?

[Batbob45]

Arya is pretty much a psychopath.

so at worst. she is Dexter

Cersei(she did kill her friend), Ramsey(don't need to explain) and LF(what he did to Jeyne) are more psycho than her

[Taenqyrhae]

how can she be seen as a villain? . if you don't count the stable boy, she has only kill some scummy people. She also care for smallfolks. at worst, she is an antihero.

She assassinated a moneylender/insurance agent for doing his job.  I am no fan of the insurance industry, but denying claims is not worthy of the death penalty, even if someone is really upset over the loss.

One of my Dad's life insurance policies did not pay off because of a technicality that was brought on by his own senility.  It didn't seem fair, it sucked, but that's how insurance companies make their money.  If anyone deserved to be punished, it would be the investors in the insurance company, as they were the ones profiting from it, and I wouldn't want anyone to die for it.