Feel bad for Ashara Dayne

[purple-eyes]

This beautiful girl seems to be quite unfortunate: 

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

2. She had a stillborn child which is very unfortunate. Lyanna died but she birthed a Jesus Christ of planetos. So at least she had that position of Virgin Mary of planetos. But ashara did not even manage to have her own blood left in the world. 

3. Her brother was killed by ned because arthur had to guard another stark. Seriously, house stark is the bane of house dayne! One stark ruined and indirectly killed ashara and two Starks destroyed arthur. Thanks the dirty backstabbing of howland reed. (Howland must be too shamed to show his face outside of the neck) 

4. She is likely the most beautiful woman in HH tourney but nobody crowned her as queen of love and beauty. Honestly It is also a dishonor for her if queen of love and beauty is supposed to go to most beautiful woman. Barristan won so many tourney through his Life but when this once he really should win, he lost! Come on. Please tell me he made a dive for rhaegar's public relationship, otherwise I will not forgive him. Even jorah won Jaime for the love of his lady. 

5. Even after death, she was rumored to birth a bastard for ned and this is a slight of her honor. She was used as a smokescreen for Jon's parentage, who is not her child at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

6. If a certain theory is to be believed, she's spent years living in the Westeros version of Florida. Poor girl indeed.

[purple-eyes]

6. If a certain theory is to be believed, she's spent years living in the Westeros version of Florida. Poor girl indeed.

that is Florida? Ok, maybe key west. 

But I always feel like aegon was living a Amazon river life style. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

This beautiful girl seems to be quite unfortunate: 

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

The rumor? This was never said.  

[purple-eyes]

The rumor? This was never said.  

Oh, sorry I mean our rumor. 

Speculation may be better wording.  

[Texas Hold Em]

This beautiful girl seems to be quite unfortunate: 

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

2. She had a stillborn child which is very unfortunate. Lyanna died but she birthed a Jesus Christ of planetos. So at least she had that position of Virgin Mary of planetos. But ashara did not even manage to have her own blood left in the world. 

3. Her brother was killed by ned because arthur had to guard another stark. Seriously, house stark is the bane of house dayne! One stark ruined and indirectly killed ashara and two Starks destroyed arthur. Thanks the dirty backstabbing of howland reed. (Howland must be too shamed to show his face outside of the neck) 

4. She is likely the most beautiful woman in HH tourney but nobody crowned her as queen of love and beauty. Honestly It is also a dishonor for her if queen of love and beauty is supposed to go to most beautiful woman. Barristan won so many tourney through his Life but when this once he really should win, he lost! Come on. Please tell me he made a dive for rhaegar's public relationship, otherwise I will not forgive him. Even jorah won Jaime for the love of his lady. 

5. Even after death, she was rumored to birth a bastard for ned and this is a slight of her honor. She was used as a smokescreen for Jon's parentage, who is not her child at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sacreligeous thing to say.  Jesus Christ never betrayed anyone.  Jon Snow is not a Jesus Christ figure. He's just a foolish young man elected to an office, which he shortly betrayed.   And there is no proof that Lyanna's baby lived.  Nor is there any proof that it's Jon.  Jon could just as likely be the whelp of Wylla the fisherman's daughter and Ned Stark.  Even better, the product of Brandon and Ashara herself.  Then there's the Jon Rayder (Mance+Lyanna=Jon) theory that's getting some attention recently.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Sacreligeous thing to say.  Jesus Christ never betrayed anyone.  Jon Snow is not a Jesus Christ figure. He's just a foolish young man elected to an office, which he shortly betrayed.   And there is no proof that Lyanna's baby lived.  Nor is there any proof that it's Jon.  Jon could just as likely be the whelp of Wylla the fisherman's daughter and Ned Stark.  Even better, the product of Brandon and Ashara herself.  Then there's the Jon Rayder (Mance+Lyanna=Jon) theory that's getting some attention recently.  

Oh dear I don't know where to start... Ok, Mance+Lyanna=Jon isn't a theory or a serious theory that needs some attention and Brandon was dead when Jon was conceived. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

that is Florida? Ok, maybe key west. 

But I always feel like aegon was living a Amazon river life style. 

 

I meant the theory that she married Howland and has been living at Greywater Watch ever since. I think kids nowadays are calling it "H + A = J + M", but it's hard to keep up with all these math formulas in this fandom.

[purple-eyes]

I meant the theory that she married Howland and has been living at Greywater Watch ever since. I think kids nowadays are calling it "H + A = J + M", but it's hard to keep up with all these math formulas in this fandom.

it is interesting but i think it is not true. 

there is no need for ashara to hide under a different name in neck if she married howland reed. 

She should have at least visited her family once in a while. 

for example, when her eldest brother died. 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

A Stark. I believe she had too much honor to expect something from Brandon. Would be just like expecting something from Robert. More likely, she promised herself to Ned. But Ned had to betray this promise because Brandon died stupidly, and Ned had to marry Cat.

[Mrs. Levi Ackerman]

 

 Lyanna died but she birthed a Jesus Christ of planetos. So at least she had that position of Virgin Mary of planetos. 

What????????Dufaacc??? 

[purple-eyes]

A Stark. I believe she had too much honor to expect something from Brandon. Would be just like expecting something from Robert. More likely, she promised herself to Ned. But Ned had to betray this promise because Brandon died stupidly, and Ned had to marry Cat.

but if it is ned, why ned never thought about her? 

And if she just promised herself, why it is a dishonor? 

In this case, she must have a child for ned. 

But we never saw ned remembered his "first born" daughter. 

[BalerionTheCat]

but if it is ned, why ned never thought about her? 

And if she just promised herself, why it is a dishonor? 

In this case, she must have a child for ned. 

But we never saw ned remembered his "first born" daughter. 

Ned does not think a lot of the events around Rhaegar, Lyanna, Harrendal. He never told of the tourney to his children for example. Doesn't mean they are not important, not painful for him. But it was in Cat's mind. She believed Ashara is Jon's mother. Why would Ned react so violently?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her.

Honestly, Brandon banging Ashara serves very little the whole story. While Ned breaking a promise he made and losing tragically the girl he loved, justify Ned's extreme commitment to honor, to protect children, and his difficult beginning with Cat.

[purple-eyes]

Ned does not think a lot of the events around Rhaegar, Lyanna, Harrendal. He never told of the tourney to his children for example. Doesn't mean they are not important, not painful for him. But it was in Cat's mind. She believed Ashara is Jon's mother. Why would Ned react so violently?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her.

Honestly, Brandon banging Ashara serves very little the whole story. While Ned breaking a promise he made and losing tragically the girl he loved, justify Ned's extreme commitment to honor, to protect children, and his difficult beginning with Cat.

yeah, this part is strange. 

This is why I always feel ned at least indeed loved ashra (one sided) 

Otherwise he did not need to be so rude and extreme on this. 

But since it was rumored that ashara died because her beloved man was dead too. 

I guess ashara slept with Brandon who was killed by Aerys

 

[BalerionTheCat]

But since it was rumored that ashara died because her beloved man was dead too.

A rumor? You mean something invented here?

To me Ashara had some reason to kill herself. Her brother dead, her daughter dead. It was only after Ned departure, when she had nothing left, that she killed herself. To me it is proof that Ned meant a lot for her.

[purple-eyes]

A rumor? You mean something invented here?

To me Ashara had some reason to kill herself. Her brother dead, her daughter dead. It was only after Ned departure, when she had nothing left, that she killed herself. To me it is proof that Ned meant a lot for her.

I agree. but in this situation the daughter is from Ned, right?

I am just wondering if Ashara indeed had a daughter with Ned and also had a tragic ending due to her love with Ned, Ned should have remembered her more. In this case, Ned technically betrayed her and caused her death. It must be a biggest pain for him. 

But he never thought about her and their stillborn daughter at all. 

Not even once. Much less than he thought about Lyanna. 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

I agree. but in this situation the daughter is from Ned, right?

I am just wondering if Ashara indeed had a daughter with Ned and also had a tragic ending due to her love with Ned, Ned should have remembered her more. In this case, Ned technically betrayed her and caused her death. It must be a biggest pain for him. 

But he never thought about her and their stillborn daughter at all. 

Not even once. Much less than he thought about Lyanna. 

 

We have not been often enough in Ned's head to know what he thought of Ashara and what happened after the ToJ. I would rather believe he refused to think and talk about it, because it was too painful, too traumatic. Anyway, GRRM has apparently some purpose in keeping Ashara in the dark for now. And again, I don't see what purpose it could have in relation with Brandon.

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

This beautiful girl seems to be quite unfortunate: 

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I personally think too much is made of Barristan's version of Ashara & Harrenhal. His recollection is suspect. We know that Martin loves unreliable narrators. Selmy is smitten with Ashara & views her through rose-colored glasses just like Robert does with Lyanna.

Also, he's got an overzealous view of knightly honor & intimate relations. There were plenty of Kingsguard that got some nookie on the side, Selmy would've never done that & bespoiled his knightly honor. Don't forget, Ashara is Dornish & Dorne has fairly liberal views pertaining to sex & marriage. Ashara could've been more along the lines of Arrianne Martel when it comes to sex than noble ladies from other areas of the 7 kingdoms. I think that Selmy would've viewed it as being "dishonored" even if Ashara had a paramour or was the aggressor in a consensual love affair. A noble lady with sexual agency does not fit his worldview. That's just how he rolls.

Lastly IIRC Barristan is the only character that suggests she was dishonored or that a Stark was involved (correct me if I'm wrong) & he says she turned to a Stark. This could mean she was dishonored by someone else & went to a Stark for help or comfort.  It could mean she was dishonored by one Stark & went to another Stark for help. It could mean she had a consensual relationship with a Stark but in Selmy's mind he still considered it a dishonor or stain on her character. Or Selmy could've been clueless & things didn't go down as he remembered it at all. Regardless, I've always been hesitant to take his recollections of Ashara at face value. 

[purple-eyes]

 

I personally think too much is made of Barristan's version of Ashara & Harrenhal. His recollection is suspect. We know that Martin loves unreliable narrators. Selmy is smitten with Ashara & views her through rose-colored glasses just like Robert does with Lyanna.

Also, he's got an overzealous view of knightly honor & intimate relations. There were plenty of Kingsguard that got some nookie on the side, Selmy would've never done that & bespoiled his knightly honor. Don't forget, Ashara is Dornish & Dorne has fairly liberal views pertaining to sex & marriage. Ashara could've been more along the lines of Arrianne Martel when it comes to sex than noble ladies from other areas of the 7 kingdoms. I think that Selmy would've viewed it as being "dishonored" even if Ashara had a paramour or was the aggressor in a consensual love affair. A noble lady with sexual agency does not fit his worldview. That's just how he rolls.

Lastly IIRC Barristan is the only character that suggests she was dishonored or that a Stark was involved (correct me if I'm wrong) & he says she turned to a Stark. This could mean she was dishonored by someone else & went to a Stark for help or comfort.  It could mean she was dishonored by one Stark & went to another Stark for help. It could mean she had a consensual relationship with a Stark but in Selmy's mind he still considered it a dishonor or stain on her character. Or Selmy could've been clueless & things didn't go down as he remembered it at all. Regardless, I've always been hesitant to take his recollections of Ashara at face value. 

I agree barri can not be trusted 

That is why I think it is not a dishonor, it is a mutual love relationship. no matter with brandon or Ned. 

there is a problem that she chose to commit suicide. 

So this means this relationship is quite serious for her, not something casual like what Arianne had.

Honestly it could be either brandon or ned. 

 

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

I agree barri can not be trusted 

That is why I think it is not a dishonor, it is a mutual love relationship. no matter with brandon or Ned. 

there is a problem that she chose to commit suicide. 

So this means this relationship is quite serious for her, not something casual like what Arianne had.

Honestly it could be either brandon or ned. 

 

I don't have any evidence to prove it & try not to get too tinfoily or into fanfic territory. But my gut instinct tells me that Ashara had a consensual relationship with someone & Barristan being Barristan believes that Ashara is so beautiful, perfect, & pure that it must've been forced or coerced.

I'm not sure whether she was just having a good time or truly in love. Based on Arianne's behavior, who is the only female POV character from Dorne, I'm leaning more towards she was just getting her freak on & not seriously in love. And Arianne isn't the only Dornish character that expresses liberal sexual behavior: Prince Llewyn of the Kingsguard has a paramour openly at court, Prince Oberyn has many bastards & brings his paramour to court (& King Joffrey's wedding), Lady Nym was having 3somes with the Fowler twins, and Arianne & Tyene have a 3some as their 1st sexual experience (I forgot who the male was). Dornish people have no qualms about having sex for pleasure. I think Ashara probably had an attitude similar to the other Dornish we know of. 

I also agree that if she did have consensual sex it was with a Stark but I personally think it was Brandon. We know that Brandon was a player. He took Lady Dustin's maidenhead & there's no reason to believe that she was his only one. Ned, on the other hand was young, honorable, & too shy to even ask her to dance. I don't see how he could be too shy to approach her to dance one day & bedding her days later. If it was Ashara & Ned, I think she'd have to have been the primary instigator. Brandon reminds me of Robert so I could totally see him talking Ashara into giving shy little Ned a pity dance but whispering "if you want to dance with a real man, meet me in my tent later..." I could see Brandon having no qualms whatsoever with bedding the chick Ned was crushing on, especially if she was the most beautiful girl in attendance.

Plus, if Ashara is a free-spirited, sex-loving Dornish woman is she going to want the shy virgin guy that's going to fumble awkwardly through the situation or a tall, handsome, bold, experienced Brandon who will know how to rock her world? I know which one I'd choose! Lol.