Feel bad for Ashara Dayne

[purple-eyes]

I don't have any evidence to prove it & try not to get too tinfoily or I to fanfic territory. But my gut instinct tells me that Ashara had a consensual relationship with someone & Barristan being Barristan believes that Ashara is so beautiful, perfect, & pure that it must've been forced or coerced.

I'm not sure whether she was just having a good time or truly in love. Based on Arianne's behavior, who is the only female POV character from Dorne, I'm leaning more towards she was just getting her freak on & not seriously in love. And Arianne isn't the only Dornish character that expresses liberal sexual behavior: Prince Llewyn of the Kingsguard has a paramour openly at court, Prince Oberyn has many bastards & brings his paramour to court (& King Joffrey's wedding), Lady Nym was having 3somes with the Fowler twins, and Arianne & Tyene have a 3some as their 1st sexual experience (I forgot who the male was). Dornish people have no qualms about having sex for pleasure. I think Ashara probably had an attitude similar to the other Dornish we know of. 

I also agree that if she did have consensual sex it was with a Stark but I personally think it was Brandon. We know that Brandon was a player. He took Lady Dustin's maidenhead & there's no reason to believe that she was his only one. Ned, on the other hand was young, honorable, & too shy to even ask her to dance. I don't see how he could be too shy to approach her to dance one day & bedding her days later. Brandon reminds me of Robert so I could totally see him talking Ashara into giving shy little Ned a pity dance but whispering "if you really want to dance, meet me in my tent later..." I could see Brandon having no qualms whatsoever with bedding the chick Ned was crushing on, especially if she was the most beautiful girl in attendance.

Plus, if Ashara is a free-spirited, sex-loving Dornish woman is she going to want the shy virgin guy that's going to fumble awkwardly through the situation or a tall, handsome, bold, experienced Brandon who will know how to rock her world? I know which one I'd choose! Lol.

yeah. Brandon is much more likely. 

But she delivered the child and killed herself later, 

so it should not be just like a one night standing for fun thing, right? 

She could have had protective moon tea like arianne. 

and she would not kill herself for a man who she only used for one night's pleasure. 

Her later behavior hinted that she is serious in love. 

so Brandon should be blamed. He had a fiancée already. 

And by the way, ashara is a Stony dornish. They follow andal tradition more. 

So they may not be very liberal in sex. 

As far as we know, arthur did not have a lover. 

 

 

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

yeah. Brandon is much more likely. 

But she delivered the child and killed herself later, 

so it should not be just like a one night standing for fun thing, right? 

She could have had protective moon tea like arianne. 

and she would not kill herself for a man who she only used for one night's pleasure. 

Her later behavior hinted that she is serious in love. 

so Brandon should be blamed. He had a fiancée already. 

And by the way, ashara is a Stony dornish. They follow andal tradition more. 

So they may not be very liberal in sex. 

As far as we know, arthur did not have a lover. 

 

 

You're right on several points. Ashara was Stoney Dornish & they were probably less liberal than the Sandy variety. I still think they were probably a little more liberal that the other 6 kingdoms but they were probably less so than the Martels.

And she did have to experience significant heartbreak to commit suicide, I'm sure she loved her brother but being a member of the KG has its risks so I don't see his death alone being the reason to fling herself from a tower.

But... do we really have any strong evidence that Ashara was actually pregnant or that she commit suicide? I know Barristan & Catelyn refer to it in their POV chapters, but both of them were too far away to be actual witnesses so their thoughts and feelings on the subject were heresay. What other characters mentioned that Ashara was pregnant and/or that she commit suicide? I think I'm gonna have to do some digging on that one.

I think there are too many holes concerning Ashara, Harrenhal, the Tower of Joy, the death of Arthur Dayne, & what happened at Starfall to really piece together what happened. Martin was vague for a reason & I think that's because these all fit into the larger story. But what if Ashara was never pregnant? What if she didn't commit suicide? The possibilities are endless.

[Knight of the Turnip Tree]

I agree that there's just not enough evidence. Not even enough to say something is likely.

I would, though, think it fitting if Ashara did indeed have a stillborn child by Ned. It would, along with the R+L=J theory, explain why Ned is so very hard on himself. If he went to bed with Ashara and intended to wed her, but then went and married Catelyn for duty and because House Dayne, as a house loyal to his enemies, was no longer an option, then found out he'd given her a stillborn child and she subsequently killed herself, well, that would certainly haunt him. I could see that shame cementing his resolve to always act with honor. It would certainly be one of the many mistakes he mentioned when speaking with Cersei about him not taking the throne. It would also explain why he reacted so forcefully when Cat mentioned Ashara. The sadness in his voice when speaking with Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy might also be due to his relationship with Ashara.

Of course, like has been said, Ned barely, if ever, thought of Ashara. Though I just read through AGoT again, I can't remember if he does. I think there have been a few other instances where character weren't written of thinking of something they likely would have, which makes sense sometimes for literary reasons.

But like everyone's said: no evidence. Just theorizing.

[The Commentator]

This beautiful girl seems to be quite unfortunate: 

1. If the rumor can be trusted, she was dishonored by Brandon, who already had a fiancée and had no intention to marry her from the very beginning (Brandon sounds like a copy of Robert baratheon on this, no wonder lyanna thought Robert's nature can not change, she probably knew this from her dear brother Brandon) . If she indeed loved Brandon, Brandon was killed brutally so this is sad too. 

2. She had a stillborn child which is very unfortunate. Lyanna died but she birthed a Jesus Christ of planetos. So at least she had that position of Virgin Mary of planetos. But ashara did not even manage to have her own blood left in the world. 

3. Her brother was killed by ned because arthur had to guard another stark. Seriously, house stark is the bane of house dayne! One stark ruined and indirectly killed ashara and two Starks destroyed arthur. Thanks the dirty backstabbing of howland reed. (Howland must be too shamed to show his face outside of the neck) 

4. She is likely the most beautiful woman in HH tourney but nobody crowned her as queen of love and beauty. Honestly It is also a dishonor for her if queen of love and beauty is supposed to go to most beautiful woman. Barristan won so many tourney through his Life but when this once he really should win, he lost! Come on. Please tell me he made a dive for rhaegar's public relationship, otherwise I will not forgive him. Even jorah won Jaime for the love of his lady. 

5. Even after death, she was rumored to birth a bastard for ned and this is a slight of her honor. She was used as a smokescreen for Jon's parentage, who is not her child at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey purple-eyes, I'm not trying to disrespect you.  I'm puzzled by your reference to Jesus Christ and the child of Lyanna.  Look, that's stretching things to the point where even Mr. Fantastic can't reach.  If you're alluding to Jon Snow, he's more Judas than Jesus, their version of Benedict Arnold.  Jesus Christ is god to a lot of people.  It's your post, your thread, just know you open yourself to criticism from someone of the faith who might be offended when you compare God to a traitor and a hussy who ran into the arms of a married man to the virgin mary.  It doesn't bother me but it may others.  I'm not the whiny, infantile type who will run to the admins and beg  them to lock a thread anytime someone expresses a different opinion from mine but others are.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Actually, I feel worst for her because she's been sexually linked to pretty much every other guy with a dick in this story.

[The Commentator]

Actually, I feel worst for her because she's been sexually linked to pretty much every other guy with a dick in this story.

There are hints, though weak ones I must admit, that Ashara loved the boys.  She was flirtatious in her Dornish way.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There are hints, though weak ones I must admit, that Ashara loved the boys.  She was flirtatious in her Dornish way.

What's a "Dornish" way? Quentyn is Dornish and he's anything but flirtatious Obara is Dornish. Is she flirtatious too?

There is not even a certain that she in fact had a baby. People said so. We only know she danced with three guys. Ned, who was too shy to ask so he wouldn't ask for more; Arthur who was her brother; Jon Connington who, well... and Oberyn Martell who we know takes cares of his bastards.

 

[TimJames]

What's a "Dornish" way? Quentyn is Dornish and he's anything but flirtatious Obara is Dornish. Is she flirtatious too?

Is it racist to assume that All Dornish People Are Promiscuous?

[Good Guy Garlan]

"Is it racist to assume that All Dornish People Are Promiscuous?"

- Ser Bill O'Reilly

[Wavey Sauce]

Even tho Barristan lost the tourney he should have grown some balls and went and talked to her

[Wavey Sauce]

What's a "Dornish" way? Quentyn is Dornish and he's anything but flirtatious Obara is Dornish. Is she flirtatious too?

There is not even a certain that she in fact had a baby. People said so. We only know she danced with three guys. Ned, who was too shy to ask so he wouldn't ask for more; Arthur who was her brother; Jon Connington who, well... and Oberyn Martell who we know takes cares of his bastards.

 

Ashara was looked at as one of the hottest chicks in the land though, Obara is busted

[purple-eyes]

What's a "Dornish" way? Quentyn is Dornish and he's anything but flirtatious Obara is Dornish. Is she flirtatious too?

There is not even a certain that she in fact had a baby. People said so. We only know she danced with three guys. Ned, who was too shy to ask so he wouldn't ask for more; Arthur who was her brother; Jon Connington who, well... and Oberyn Martell who we know takes cares of his bastards.

 

yeah, Doran does not have a paramour as far as we know. Tystane seems to be a nice boy too. 

By the way, Oberyn is her liege lord, she should dance with him for courtesy. That is not flirting. 

Joncon is funny here. Why the hell he wanted to pick up a most attractive woman in the tourney to dance with her?

Was he mad with rhaegar at that moment?

 

[purple-eyes]

There are hints, though weak ones I must admit, that Ashara loved the boys.  She was flirtatious in her Dornish way.

Where are the hints?

She did not sound like flirtatious at all. 

Just because Howland reed was counting her dancing partners secretly, does not mean she is flirting. 

It only means she is very beautiful so she caught howland's eyes. 

Any girl will need to dance with multiple people in a ball like that.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

 

Ashara was looked at as one of the hottest chicks in the land though, Obara is busted

The way she grasps that spear, tho

[Wavey Sauce]

The way she grasps that spear, tho

She def wears the pants in any relationship shes in

[Good Guy Garlan]

 

She def wears the pants in any relationship shes in

[BalerionTheCat]

I agree barri can not be trusted 

That is why I think it is not a dishonor, it is a mutual love relationship. no matter with brandon or Ned. 

there is a problem that she chose to commit suicide. 

So this means this relationship is quite serious for her, not something casual like what Arianne had.

Honestly it could be either brandon or ned. 

 

She killed herself. So I don't think she was much like Arianne. The Daynes are supposed to be First Men and put lots of stock in their honor, not even allowing any of their Lord to wield their sword. Much more like Stark to me. This would also explain the friendship between the houses.

And the Starks are like a wolfpack, sticking together. I don't see Brandon helping Ned with Ashara, then fucking her. If it was something serious for Ned. Brandon loved his sister. He certainly loved his brothers too.

[purple-eyes]

She killed herself. So I don't think she was much like Arianne. The Daynes are supposed to be First Men and put lots of stock in their honor, not even allowing any of their Lord to wield their sword. Much more like Stark to me. This would also explain the friendship between the houses.

And the Starks are like a wolfpack, sticking together. I don't see Brandon helping Ned with Ashara, then fucking her. If it was something serious for Ned. Brandon loved his sister. He certainly loved his brothers too.

but he may think anyway ned did not have chance to win ashara's heart, so he will go ahead and do it. 

This sounds like something Brandon will do. 

[Sansa Snow]

but he may think anyway ned did not have chance to win ashara's heart, so he will go ahead and do it. 

This sounds like something Brandon will do. 

It seems to me that Brandon+Ashara theories are always based on Brandon being an asshole and not a good brother.

 

Where does this idea come from?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Where does this idea come from?

Nowhere. Brandon was said that he enjoyed sex and for some people this must mean that he was having sex with anyone no matter what.