Does Arya survives at the end and furthers the stark family line through gendry?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes, direwolves are less powerful than dragons, but what about it? I expect that Bran will aquire great powers as a sort of living god, [...]

A bit off-topic, but I find it really strange how Bran's "divinity" is used to "forbid" him of doing whatever he might want. I mean, isn't this supposed to be what being "a god" is all about? To be able to do whatever you want, whatever anyone else can't?

But, in Bran's case, I only see the opposite: he'll be a god, so he can't walk again, he'll be a god, so he can't come out of the cave ever again, he'll be a god, so he can't have children, he'll be a god, so he can't skinchange into a dragon... I guess he's just allowed to go sightseeing in Hodor's body for the LOLz.

 

[lojzelote]

 

A bit off-topic, but I find it really strange how Bran's "divinity" is used to "forbid" him of doing whatever he might want. I mean, isn't this supposed to be what being "a god" is all about? To be able to do whatever you want, whatever anyone else can't?

But, in Bran's case, I only see the opposite: he'll be a god, so he can't walk again, he'll be a god, so he can't come out of the cave ever again, he'll be a god, so he can't have children, he'll be a god, so he can't skinchange into a dragon... I guess he's just allowed to go sightseeing in Hodor's body for the LOLz.

 

Nearly all of my posts are at least a bit offtopic. :-)

I tend to be much more optimistic as to Bran's future than the majority. I'm pretty sure he will get out of that cave sooner or later, and spend a large part of his life as the Lord of Winterfell and kind, wise uncle of his sibling's children. As opposed to Bloodraven, he doesn't need the heartree's support to survive just yet.

As for his powers, it truly seems he will be practising the forbiden, i.e. skinchanging into Hodor (and so he gets his dream of becoming a warrior/knight at least for a time), he'll be also the most effective spymaster ever (able to see almost anything what's happening either in the present or even what happened in the past) and he'll be able to communicate the information to other people, he should be able to skinchange into an unlimited number of animals (wolves, ravens, bears, shadowcats, foxes, lions,... krakens), he could probably send nightmares to haunt people he hates and inspiring dreams to people he needs to influence... and much more. IIRC it said that the Arm of Dorne had been broken by the Children of the Forest to stop the First Men (albeit a little too late), and I've seen theories that the Neck is a result of a similar attempt... so who knows what else the Children hide up their sleeve. ;-)

I think that the concept of a greenseer is much more terrifying than that of a dragonrider. Sure, a dragonrider (who must have his/her dragon at hand!) can cause a lot of damage in a very short time if (s)he sets his mind to it, but (s)he or even dragon can be killed relatively easily (it's not like we haven't seen many dragon deaths in The World of Ice and Fire). Now, imagine someone like Bloodraven, holed in some hiding place, when nobody suspects what powers he has on his disposal; someone who can keep tabs on you all the time if he so chooses, who can enter your dreams and disturb your sleep, who can drive you insane by entering your mind, who can make any dog attack you and tear you apart, scare your horse,... I'd take my chances with a dragonrider as my mortal enemy any day, should the other option be a greenseer.

[lojzelote]

Thank you! I am a fan of both girls (see my signature), and have never understood the need to give Arya things that belong to Dany's character growth and development, as well as storylines associated with her. It's why I can't buy into Starkcest or Stark triumphalist fan theories. Yes, House Stark is awesome, and it's likely the surviving members will be instrumental in the outcome of the series, but there are other characters that GRRM cares about in the story, too.

No one is giving the Baratheons or the Targaryens Stark direwolves... "Nymeria is going to totally bond with Myrcella!" It's annoying when fans disregard Dany and parcel out her dragons to their favorites without much justification. Jon is likely an exception if R+L=J, and Bran might become powerful enough to compel one in the future (who knows), but that doesn't mean that the rest of the Starks will get their very own pet dragons... 

"Bran will probably warg a dragon! And since Arya's a warg, too, she's going to warg a dragon! And Rickon's on Skagos, and unicorns are magical creatures like dragons, so..." Not a chance.

You're welcome! (I tried to answer you before, but the new quoting system did not agree with me.) :-)

Yeah, I like the Starks and the Targaryens both, but these days it must appear I can't stand the former, since I'm putting down the Stark hype (and defending the Targaryens) more often than not. Sometimes I feel that most of the fandom bought too heavily into the Northern viewpoint, and views everything through the glasses of the Starks being the ultimate heroes of the books, with the rest of the cast serving only the function of supporting characters or antagonists.

One of the most annoying things is the Targaryen bashing. Bloodthirsty conqerors, foreigners too arrogant to adopt Westerosi ways, inbred madmen, dirty liers who want to keep dragons for themselves, blah blah blah. I wonder if they really believe that historical Starks conquered the North by conquering people's hearts first by being such great guys? Do they believe they held democratic elections? Do they believe they wouldn't have used dragons, did they have them? Do they believe that all historical Starks were good and just rulers? Yeah, it's easy to idealize the Stark history, since compared to the three centuries of Targaryen rule, we have very little information on the Stark kings.

As for the incest, I wonder if they despise Egyptian pharaohs and their sister-wives with the same gusto? (What I found most amusing were the reactions of some to the uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree... but they were only half-uncle and niece! Jon would totally get nauseous over the idea of sleeping with his aunt! Also, the brother/sister marriage is completely OK if it's Jon with either Sansa or Arya... sometimes I wish for Jon to be really Ned and Ashara's son and then have the Jon/Stark girl romance, just to see people's reactions.)

And when it comes to magical abilities... it's perfectly okay if Bran can be a greenseer because it's in his blood (as Bloodraven says), but it would be way too eugenics-like if the Targaryens could bond with dragons because it's in their blood? The worst I've seen are the posters, who usually claim that the whole dragon gene thing is a nonsense and Targaryen propaganda... until the moment there's a theory which gives them the tiniest chance that the Stark children could have a drop of Targaryen blood... then suddenly the idea of the "blood of the dragon" becomes much more possible in their mind. The utter hypocrisy of it wants to make me puke.

 

[Winter's Cold]

If Arya gets a dragon, then I hope Dany gets a direwolf. After all, Dany is at least descended from the Blackwoods, while Arya has zero conection to the dragonlords or Valyrians of any kind.

Nah, not gonna happen. Dragons are symbolic of House Targaryen the same way direwolves are symbolic of House Stark. The three dragons will be bound to the three heads of the dragon just like the six direwolf pups had been bound to the six Stark children. There's no reason why Arya Stark, the daughter of Winterfell, should get a large fire-breathing lizard or become a head of the dragon.

No really, I freaking hate these theories which try to take certain characters' heirlooms and familars and give them to other characters that they like better. It's like the idea that Arya will die and Sansa will form a warg bond with Nymeria. Or the idea that Jon will get Drogon. Or the idea that Jon will somehow somewhere find/receive Dark Sister and gift it to Arya. (While I can imagine that Jon may get his hands on Dark Sister some day since he's likely Rhaegar Targaryen's secret son, I can't imagine why would he give this Targaryen heirloom to Arya since he had already given her Needle and she's not a proper warrior anyway, but an assassin. Should he lend that sword to any woman, then it should be one of the Mormont ladies, since he's currently borrowing their Longclaw... or better yet, return Longclaw and keep Dark Sister.)

The same goes for Bran and dragons. The idea why he should warg a dragon is more understandable in his case, but I don't think he will. I could imagine Bloodraven doing it, for a short time, but not Bran. Dragons and fire magic are just not the Starks' area.

The main reason these dragon theories occur is due to Dany having three dragons but only bonding tightly to one. Another reason is that wargs (Bran, Jon and Arya) can control other animals and dragons may play a pivotal role in the battle against the others. 

 

As for Dark Sister, Valyrian steel weapons don't have to remain connected to their original owners. Ice was melted down into two swords for House Lannister. Jon has Longclaw despite not being a Mormont. Red Rain was stolen from a knight by House Drumm. Dark Sister likewise could have a non Targaryen wielder. If Jon finds it, he might give it to Arya for at least two reasons. The first is that Jon definitely favors Arya over any other female character and Dark Sister was apparently made for a woman's hand. Jon already has Longclaw so he may as well let Arya use Dark Sister. The second is that while Needle has definitely served Arya well, it's of little use against wights and White Walker. Thus, Jon may give it to her for personal protection. 

[Arya-Jon]

 

Plus, I believe in the unholy theory of Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion, and assuming that, it would really be nonsensical that two main characters have secret Targaryen parentage, but a head of dragon becomes someone who is completely non-related to the Targaryens. As for his lion appearance in Dany's vision, I think it signals that in his heart of hearts his Lannister side will win in the end. Or maybe it simply means he will come to her as a Lannister. Afterr all, Jon Snow is represented as a blue rose, and he's not a Tyrell.

 

 

I have almost no doubts on Tyrion flying a dragon. Not only are there referenes in text, but the author said  this in 2007 in his live journal, where at that time  he had already teased many titbits before- These teases became less, only after 2011.

Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam’s virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will… ah… could… ah, never mind.

So Tyrion rides one of the dragons (and creates some mischievious schemes). But could he ever be the third or second head of the dragon. The reason he will never be is that he is turning into a villain , it runs against my own theory that the three heads of the dragon must be so united that they must almost be one. "Three heads the dragon  implies a high level of bonding between the three heads. They can never betray each other"

This post contains many hints of Tyrion turning to a more villainous role- http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/133199655689/tyrions-turn-to-villainy

I think towards the end of the story, Tyrion will turn against Dany and possibly betray her and become the person Jon and the rest will fight against.

There are worse ways to die than drowning. And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King’s Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a cross-bow bolt through the great Lord Tywin’s bowels. No man would mourn the thing that he’d become. I’ll haunt the Seven Kingdoms, he thought, sinking deeper. They would not love me living, so let them dread me dead.

A similar line was said by Bobbono when he was playing Tyrion in the Winds of Winter

As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love

This may seem  innocent lines to you guys. But I think it is Martin who is teasing  us with Tyrion's eventual future.

So if not Tyrion, who? Who can truly be united forever in purpose with Dany and Jon. I am pretty sure it is not Aegon. That unity is not possible.

Thats why I am a staunch believer in one of the Starks being a "head of the dragon" ,if at all the head of a dragon refers to three different people.  And honestly this prophesy is so open ended. The head does not necessarily imply a dragon head, but a head the dragon has (three heads the dragon has)  with him and who will support him and play a major role in his quest. Though the fact they are skinchangers and can possibly become a dragon the same way they can become a cat or a raven or form a bond with a dragon does not hurt.

Grrm has hinted the third head will not be a Targaryen", then why not someone among the Starks, who are much more likely to stay loyal to  Dany once they unite.

I am sorry, but I just cannot visualize a head of the dragon which betrays two other heads. That would be a mockery of the statement "Three heads the dragon has", because if the dragon has a head which betrays the remaining two heads, then that head was never truly his.  It was always a seperate head, and thats why Aegon and Tyrion will not be one of the head which "the Dragon has" , even if they ride dragons

 

 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Nearly all of my posts are at least a bit offtopic. :-)

I tend to be much more optimistic as to Bran's future than the majority. I'm pretty sure he will get out of that cave sooner or later, and spend a large part of his life as the Lord of Winterfell and kind, wise uncle of his sibling's children. As opposed to Bloodraven, he doesn't need the heartree's support to survive just yet.

As for his powers, it truly seems he will be practising the forbiden, i.e. skinchanging into Hodor (and so he gets his dream of becoming a warrior/knight at least for a time), he'll be also the most effective spymaster ever (able to see almost anything what's happening either in the present or even what happened in the past) and he'll be able to communicate the information to other people, he should be able to skinchange into an unlimited number of animals (wolves, ravens, bears, shadowcats, foxes, lions,... krakens), he could probably send nightmares to haunt people he hates and inspiring dreams to people he needs to influence... and much more. IIRC it said that the Arm of Dorne had been broken by the Children of the Forest to stop the First Men (albeit a little too late), and I've seen theories that the Neck is a result of a similar attempt... so who knows what else the Children hide up their sleeve. ;-)

I think that the concept of a greenseer is much more terrifying than that of a dragonrider. Sure, a dragonrider (who must have his/her dragon at hand!) can cause a lot of damage in a very short time if (s)he sets his mind to it, but (s)he or even dragon can be killed relatively easily (it's not like we haven't seen many dragon deaths in The World of Ice and Fire). Now, imagine someone like Bloodraven, holed in some hiding place, when nobody suspects what powers he has on his disposal; someone who can keep tabs on you all the time if he so chooses, who can enter your dreams and disturb your sleep, who can drive you insane by entering your mind, who can make any dog attack you and tear you apart, scare your horse,... I'd take my chances with a dragonrider as my mortal enemy any day, should the other option be a greenseer.

Let's go off-topic then, if the OP does not mind too much 

I certainly hope that Bran's story does not rob him of the human experience. I don't have any premonition for either option, as his arc so far is open enough to allow space for both alternatives.

But, I find it both especially sad and creepy to experience life through Hodor's body. Such an outcome would be in the mold of the bittersweet ending, giving Bran the shortest and most bitter end of the stick along with a storyline of exploring the "path to evil". It could, potentially, make a good story but it is not something I'd wish for the character.

However, the narrative role of Bran warging Hodor is, IMO, complementary to Jojen's remark about Bran's potential to skinchange into any beast -no exceptions cited- and to Varamyr's prologue about both the ethical as well as the "technical" aspect, practically proclaiming -IMO- the human as the most difficult animal to take over. That, I believe, is enough groundwork to allow [the author to have] Bran to control a dragon, if plot demands it.

Personally, I don't think the issue of "power balance" will be of much importance. After all, my take is that, by the end, the shape of world will be close to how maesters envisioned it, ie a world without magic; I expect dragons to perish, having played their role in the war for the Dawn. If Bran controls one, I think it is most likely to pass as a solution to the problem of not having a way to make it useful, since without a rider the dragon is just a wild animal and does no more than what their nature dictates. But anyway, the point is that Bran aquiring "godlike" attributes should mean that he is not bound to the rules that bind people under "normal procedures", so to say. So, unless there are two more characters, with certified Valyrian blood and (more importantly, to me) narrative relevance to ride the two spare dragons, I believe it's rather pointless to exclude Bran on the grounds of being a Stark.

(Btw, personally I don't see Jon as a future dragon rider, as I believe his role will be to lead men to battle which he can not really do from dragon back, not to mention that all this sword fighting practice will go wasted. That would mean, reduced narrative relevance for Jon as a potential dragon rider even though he ticks the presumed blood requirement.)

[Arya-Jon]

 

(Btw, personally I don't see Jon as a future dragon rider, as I believe his role will be to lead men to battle which he can not really do from dragon back, not to mention that all this sword fighting practice will go wasted. That would mean, reduced narrative relevance for Jon as a potential dragon rider even though he ticks the presumed blood requirement.)

Yep. Especially if he gets or makes Lightbringer, he will be like the only person who has nothing to fear from leading the ground forces. against Whitewalkers So why would he ride a dragon and leave the defending to someone else?

How many people does it leave? If the supposed theory of there being three dragon riders is true. Tyrion. Dany and ? I know some people talk about Aegon, but I just dont think he will leave his King's Landing ambitions aside to go on a quest to save Westeros. I also doubt he would make a relative nobody like Plumm a dragon rider if there are only three dragons to ride.

A Stark like Bran because of his narrative importance and because he is a greenseer is a much likelier candidate for warging it. He can also play a crucial role in reversing whatever magic Euron does using the dragon horn.

I feel that  the three heads of the dragon prophesy has nothing to do with dragon riding. I believe in Jon being Azor Ahai and Dany being the PTWP  (I think they are different even though many characters think they are same )

Azor Ahai prophesy says dragon would be woken from stone. In one place in the book it is plural. In another place it is singular. So Jon is the dragon woken from stone similar to how a Dragon egg was hatched in the novella "The mystery knight" of the  Dunk and the egg Series where the Egg hatched was Aegon who truly realized his power and identity as a Targaryen at that point. 

If Jon is already a dragon, why the need to ride a dragon to become the head of a dragon?

Maybe three heads of the dragon mean one person. And that makes sense because the word refered to is "The dragon" not "The dragons ". Yet it does mention three heads. How can that be possible?  One possiblity that they are the same person but have three heads. with Dany's being  Drogon ,Rhaegal Viserion .Or Jon's being Ghost , a Dragon and his own head.

However if it does refer to three people, how will it be possible that they are essetially one person with three heads. How can one person bond with two other so much that they are essentially one person, just have three different heads. 

As Aegon, Tyrion etc will not remain forever united with Dany and Jon. Bloodraven is too old to have too much impact (Else why bring Bran?). Starks are among the few protagonists left who can permanently unite with Dany and Jon through some bond or the other. In the case of Aegon, visenya and Rhaenys it was marriage because after marriage people say that you are one. Here it may be something else (maybe siblinghood) , maybe some greenseer magic or a marriage .

[lojzelote]

Let's go off-topic then, if the OP does not mind too much 

I certainly hope that Bran's story does not rob him of the human experience. I don't have any premonition for either option, as his arc so far is open enough to allow space for both alternatives.

But, I find it both especially sad and creepy to experience life through Hodor's body. Such an outcome would be in the mold of the bittersweet ending, giving Bran the shortest and most bitter end of the stick along with a storyline of exploring the "path to evil". It could, potentially, make a good story but it is not something I'd wish for the character.

However, the narrative role of Bran warging Hodor is, IMO, complementary to Jojen's remark about Bran's potential to skinchange into any beast -no exceptions cited- and to Varamyr's prologue about both the ethical as well as the "technical" aspect, practically proclaiming -IMO- the human as the most difficult animal to take over. That, I believe, is enough groundwork to allow [the author to have] Bran to control a dragon, if plot demands it.

Personally, I don't think the issue of "power balance" will be of much importance. After all, my take is that, by the end, the shape of world will be close to how maesters envisioned it, ie a world without magic; I expect dragons to perish, having played their role in the war for the Dawn. If Bran controls one, I think it is most likely to pass as a solution to the problem of not having a way to make it useful, since without a rider the dragon is just a wild animal and does no more than what their nature dictates. But anyway, the point is that Bran aquiring "godlike" attributes should mean that he is not bound to the rules that bind people under "normal procedures", so to say. So, unless there are two more characters, with certified Valyrian blood and (more importantly, to me) narrative relevance to ride the two spare dragons, I believe it's rather pointless to exclude Bran on the grounds of being a Stark.

(Btw, personally I don't see Jon as a future dragon rider, as I believe his role will be to lead men to battle which he can not really do from dragon back, not to mention that all this sword fighting practice will go wasted. That would mean, reduced narrative relevance for Jon as a potential dragon rider even though he ticks the presumed blood requirement.)

I strongly disagree with you about Bran. Bran should be bound by limitations as all the other characters. Just because he happens to be extremely strong in the First Men magic doesn't mean he has to master the kinds of magic Mirri or Melisandre use(d). That applies to dragons, too. They aren't "ordinary" animals like direwolves or shadowcats (or even humans!), they are magical, fire made flesh, and as I said before, the Starks lack the special relationship to fire magic. Bran surpassing "normal procedures" would be cheating, IMHO.

As for the future of the magic in the ASoIaF world, GRRM can either choose that a powerful magical "storm" will take place at the end of the books, and all the energy spent on that will mean that magic will decline once more (but not permanently, imho), or he will do what one of his friends and fellow writers had done, i.e. magic returns full force and humans stand before the challenge to adapt to the brave new world.

As for Jon, I don't believe that it makes much sense to have a secret Targaryen and not have him ride a dragon. It's not like if Targaryen blood was good for anything else, is it? As far his fighting skills are concerned, we know he has always been average, so I don't think it would be such a loss for the humankind. IIRC the only battle he took part in was the battle for the Wall at end of ASoS, no? Well, Tyrion led the defence of the King's Landing during the Blackwater, but it doesn't mean he's stuck to fight on a battlefield in a face to face combat.

[lojzelote]

Yep. Especially if he gets or makes Lightbringer, he will be like the only person who has nothing to fear from leading the ground forces. against Whitewalkers So why would he ride a dragon and leave the defending to someone else?

How many people does it leave? If the supposed theory of there being three dragon riders is true. Tyrion. Dany and ? I know some people talk about Aegon, but I just dont think he will leave his King's Landing ambitions aside to go on a quest to save Westeros. I also doubt he would make a relative nobody like Plumm a dragon rider if there are only three dragons to ride.

A Stark like Bran because of his narrative importance and because he is a greenseer is a much likelier candidate for warging it. He can also play a crucial role in reversing whatever magic Euron does using the dragon horn.

I feel that  the three heads of the dragon prophesy has nothing to do with dragon riding. I believe in Jon being Azor Ahai and Dany being the PTWP  (I think they are different even though many characters think they are same )

Azor Ahai prophesy says dragon would be woken from stone. In one place in the book it is plural. In another place it is singular. So Jon is the dragon woken from stone similar to how a Dragon egg was hatched in the novella "The mystery knight" of the  Dunk and the egg Series where the Egg hatched was Aegon who truly realized his power and identity as a Targaryen at that point. 

If Jon is already a dragon, why the need to ride a dragon to become the head of a dragon?

Maybe three heads of the dragon mean one person. And that makes sense because the word refered to is "The dragon" not "The dragons ". Yet it does mention three heads. How can that be possible?  One possiblity that they are the same person but have three heads. with Dany's being  Drogon ,Rhaegal Viserion .Or Jon's being Ghost , a Dragon and his own head.

However if it does refer to three people, how will it be possible that they are essetially one person with three heads. How can one person bond with two other so much that they are essentially one person, just have three different heads. 

As Aegon, Tyrion etc will not remain forever united with Dany and Jon. Bloodraven is too old to have too much impact (Else why bring Bran?). Starks are among the few protagonists left who can permanently unite with Dany and Jon through some bond or the other. In the case of Aegon, visenya and Rhaenys it was marriage because after marriage people say that you are one. Here it may be something else (maybe siblinghood) , maybe some greenseer magic or a marriage .

Why should Jon make Lightbringer? It has already been made, be it dragons, Dawn, or your regular Valyrian steel. (For that matter, I think that AAR is Dany.) But to answer your question> because while in a martial culture like Westeros there are hundreds of military commanders and ten thousands of warriors, dragons can be ridden by precious few people. Anyhow, as I've answered @Shadowcat, it's not like if Jon was anything all that special as a fighter or battle commander.

I believe that this business with three dragon heads is rather simple. The three heands of the dragon will be three dragonriders just like the last time. While the last time the "central one" (Aegon) of the trio was a male, flanked by two females (Visenya, Rhaenys), this time around the central one will be female (Dany)... and therefore it makes sense that the past will be mirrored, but in reverse, and she'll get two male companions, more precisely, two male relatives.

I really don't expect that the three heads will always be in agreement. Why should they? Having the "team" never argue about their goals and ways to reach them would take half the fun away, IMHO. Just because they "share a body", it doesn't mean that each of the heads can't have its own thought and ideas. ;-) For example, ADwD!Tyrion has a dream, in which he's got two heads, but while one head is laughing, the other one is weeping. Also, who's to say that the team won't fall apart at some point? It could well be one of Dany's three betrayals.

[Arya-Jon]

Why should Jon make Lightbringer? It has already been made, be it dragons, Dawn, or your regular Valyrian steel. (For that matter, I think that AAR is Dany.) But to answer your question> because while in a martial culture like Westeros there are hundreds of military commanders and ten thousands of warriors, dragons can be ridden by precious few people. Anyhow, as I've answered @Shadowcat, it's not like if Jon was anything all that special as a fighter or battle commander.

I believe that this business with three dragon heads is rather simple. The three heands of the dragon will be three dragonriders just like the last time. While the last time the "central one" (Aegon) of the trio was a male, flanked by two females (Visenya, Rhaenys), this time around the central one will be female (Dany)... and therefore it makes sense that the past will be mirrored, but in reverse, and she'll get two male companions, more precisely, two male relatives.

I really don't expect that the three heads will always be in agreement. Why should they? Having the "team" never argue about their goals and ways to reach them would take half the fun away, IMHO. Just because they "share a body", it doesn't mean that each of the heads can't have its own thought and ideas. ;-) For example, ADwD!Tyrion has a dream, in which he's got two heads, but while one head is laughing, the other one is weeping. Also, who's to say that the team won't fall apart at some point? It could well be one of Dany's three betrayals.

At this point I have realized that no amount of your arguments will convince me and  no amount of mine will convince you.

And thats normal. We are talking about a book where we are not really confident of how it will go. So we cannot really prove the other person is wrong especailly in matters such as three heads of the dragon, azor ahai etc. We are not George Martin. You believe the three head has a different meaning than I think. You think Jon wont have a fiery sword  which will burn in his hand (Dawn , longclaw for now dont burn). They may burn after some magic, but you dont think that will happen.You think only Dany is Azor ahai.

Ok. Lets see, Who is correct by the end of the series/ show  .  That would be more fun, because right now we both have stuck to our rigid belief systems. It would be fun coming back to this thread and seeing how much each of us got right.

[lojzelote]

At this point I have realized that no amount of your arguments will convince me and  no amount of mine will convince you.

And thats normal. We are talking about a book where we are not really confident of how it will go.We are not George Martin. You believe the three head has a different meaning than I think. You think Jon wont have a magic sword. You think only Dany is Azor ahai.

Ok. Lets see, Who is correct by the end of the series/ show  . That would be more fun, because right now we both have stuck to our rigid belief systems. It would be fun coming back to this thread and seeing how much each of us got right.

Well, if we take into account that the Valyrian word for "dragon" had been translated as "prince", and Azor Ahai truly equals Prince that Was Promised, than it could mean the original prophecy speaks of a three-headed Dragon that Was Promised.  But, in such a case it would make most sense that Lightbringer are the dragons, no?... since they would be three of them for the three heads of Azor Ahai, as opposed to some super special single sword.

Anyway, Aegon the First had both a dragon and a cool sword, and so did Maegor the Cruel or Daemon Targaryen, though they couldn't use them at the same, of course, they were considered dragonriders and great/capable warriors. I don't see why becoming a dragonrider means you have to give up swordfight completely.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I strongly disagree with you about Bran. Bran should be bound by limitations as all the other characters. Just because he happens to be extremely strong in the First Men magic doesn't mean he has to master the kinds of magic Mirri or Melisandre use(d). That applies to dragons, too. They aren't "ordinary" animals like direwolves or shadowcats (or even humans!), they are magical, fire made flesh, and as I said before, the Starks lack the special relationship to fire magic. Bran surpassing "normal procedures" would be cheating, IMHO.

As for the future of the magic in the ASoIaF world, GRRM can either choose that a powerful magical "storm" will take place at the end of the books, and all the energy spent on that will mean that magic will decline once more (but not permanently, imho), or he will do what one of his friends and fellow writers had done, i.e. magic returns full force and humans stand before the challenge to adapt to the brave new world.

As for Jon, I don't believe that it makes much sense to have a secret Targaryen and not have him ride a dragon. It's not like if Targaryen blood was good for anything else, is it? As far his fighting skills are concerned, we know he has always been average, so I don't think it would be such a loss for the humankind. IIRC the only battle he took part in was the battle for the Wall at end of ASoS, no? Well, Tyrion led the defence of the King's Landing during the Blackwater, but it doesn't mean he's stuck to fight on a battlefield in a face to face combat.

Shit, just as I hit "Submit" an error occured and I just lost my reply... no time and energy to write it again, so I think it's about time to close this off topic parenthesis by agreeing to save the disagreement for a better time and wait for Winds 

I'll just leave two points here for consideration: one, that magic *is* cheating by definition and two, that (IMO) what characters do themselves is the important part of their arc.

[lojzelote]

Shit, just as I hit "Submit" an error occured and I just lost my reply... no time and energy to write it again, so I think it's about time to close this off topic parenthesis by agreeing to save the disagreement for a better time and wait for Winds 

I'll just leave two points here for consideration: one, that magic *is* cheating by definition and two, that (IMO) what characters do themselves is the important part of their arc.

I'm looking at it from meta/Doylist perspective. At the end of the day, it's always the author who make rules and decisions. Jon's decision isn't really his decision. GRRM decides for him, but the decision should feel consistent with his characterization and if it's not, there should be a reason for that. (I don't remember any reason to believe that Jon would be averse to dragonriding.) So far it seems very likely that GRRM decided to make Jon a half-Targaryen and he also made the decision to tie the Targaryens with dragonriding. Sure, he may have a great surprise in store for us, but I believe that that great surprise is supposed to be the discovery that Jon is a Targaryen in the first place.

I wouldn't say that magic is cheating. Magic exists, and some people are able to channel it and use it, some are not. But, the ways to channel and use the magic can be very different. Besides that, I feel that GRRM made the Starks and Targaryens as the opposites of each other (the whole ice and fire business), though in a more complimentary rather than antagonistic way (the antagonistic ice & fire being the Others vs. humans). But still the opposites, therefore "icy" Starks shouldn't be able to control what is affiliated with "fiery" Targaryens, and vice versa.

[Arya-Jon]

But still the opposites, therefore "icy" Starks shouldn't be able to control what is affiliated with "fiery" Targaryens, and vice versa.

Why did he make the Starks wargs and greenseer. A warg/greenseer can control wild animals. Why cant he control a magical wild animal like a dragon?  When the wargs themselves are a magical people. Of course this controlling may require some effort on his/her part. For instance even for Arya to control that cat in Bravos, she had to become friendly with it.  For Bran , maybe even the requirement of friendliness may not be there

You are making the rule that the icy starks cant control dragons. But its still your rules, until the author proves it is his rules too. While your reasoning holds validity in pure socialist way. Like all men are equal. So Starks must not be more powerful than Targs. But you are ignoring that the Targs are currently more powerful than all  the rest and can well do with a bit of sharing.

The last book of the Asoiaf was initially named "A time for wolves" before being changed to "A dream of Spring". This could mean the death of all dragons or simply that wolves may learn to control dragons. Who the hell knows? Maybe the wolves will learn about the magic that is required to control Dragons.

The thing is ice and fire can mate (as Meera and Jojen said). If they can mate then the so called icy people can control fiery dragons. In fact this may be among the many things the story shows, thus highlighting the interplay between ice and fire.

I find that reasoning more apt than a strict determination to keep dragons with Targs so much so that you make poeple who will later turn enemies into heads of a single dragon. While you are not flexible in the idea that anyone other than Targs can tame dragons. I am very clear that to be a head of the dragon your purpose must be one  and you must stay united until death do you apart, like in the case of Aegon, Visenya Rhaenys. And I just dont find three people with Targ blood who can fulfill that role. So I look to the Starks who may have the capacity to tame dragons and become one with them. (What else could be the reason Valyrians did not invade Westeros if not for the fear of wargs and greenseers).

That the dragons of the Targs were safe till now , may be because Greenseers can see the future and may have allowed them (Targs) to keep it, while most of the Wargs were wildings seperated by the Wall and could never journey that south, and even if they do, they could never get near dragons who are protected by soldiers. To start warging and to first establish the connection , unless you are a very powerful warg/greenseer like Bran, you must be near them.Bran is an exception as he can control ravens from far away.  And greenseers like Bran would never control Dragons for selfish reasons but only when they really need to and when the time is right. The right time never came before now when the World faces a threat of a everlasting winter.

Ultimately it depends on how we interpret things, and make predictions. But it is still our predictions fallible in every way because we are not Grrm,we know nothing, only Grrm knows.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Haha. 

You certainly are a Frey. No wonder you want to give Arya (who is your death) an agonizing death.

The North Remembers Frey!, and your reign is almost up.

Though if you are actually serious about this, which i am sure you are not, then Arya is just seeking justice. Just recently someone assaulted someone in my country and there were protests demanding justice in my country.

Arya is the same. She wants justice. She is screaming for justice. But who will give her that. Who will give justice to the murderer of Lommy Her father is dead and the Lannisters will kill her. So who?

She takes matters into her own hand. And kills them. But only the actual people who she thinks have done unjust things, She is nice to nice people. People like Sam, for instance whom she saved.

The only people who need to fear her are those who have done unjust things to her pack or have done something she feels is wrong. People like Freys. 

Though as Wyman Manderly says "Mayhaps that is a blessing........"

Cackling to myself with a evil smile on my face .....

The Twins will stand as it always has.  We shall take out a contract and recruit the best hunters and trackers to hunt down that wolf pack and make snuggly blankets out of them.  Bronn will do it for the right amount.  Mayhaps Arya gets caught in the toothed jaws of one our steel traps.  Queen Cersei would be delighted to receive her pickled feet.  But, kind ser, I would solicit your opinion.  Should we use regular pickling lime and vinegar, or just plain vinegar?  Mayhaps trim the toenails before sending them to Her Grace?

[Arya-Jon]

The Twins will stand as it always has.  We shall take out a contract and recruit the best hunters and trackers to hunt down that wolf pack and make snuggly blankets out of them.  Bronn will do it for the right amount.  Mayhaps Arya gets caught in the toothed jaws of one our steel traps.  Queen Cersei would be delighted to receive her pickled feet.  But, kind ser, I would solicit your opinion.  Should we use regular pickling lime and vinegar, or just plain vinegar?  

Hahaha. I would love it if you go out to hunt her. Use regular pickling lime and vinegar.

But remember this. When Arya had just escaped the Boltons after killing the guard, the bloody mummers were sent to hunt her.

They thought they were hunting her, but they did not realize she was hunting them. Soon they were killed by the Wolf pack.

I doubt you will even be able to recognize Arya anyway. Who knows the wife who is coming to feed you food is actually Arya in disguise. So keep your eyes open. Look at your good mother, even your father, touch their face to make sure that they not Arya.  Oh ,I forgot even that would not work. Touching the face will now help you recognize her because the face would just appear the same.

And yes I am serious when I say that even your son a danger to you. I had seen the waif transform into Jaquen. So people like Arya who have recieved FM training can indeed grow a cock and come in front of you as your son.

The best advice I can give you for your safety is kill everyone in your castle. Even your sons/wives/parents if you have any. Live alone and lock the doors. That's the safest route for you.

 

 

 

 

 

[ultravioletgaia]

Arya is more likely to marry Gendry and settle down in Storm's End before this happens. There is honestly no reason to believe this dumb theory. 

'dumb' bec you didn't like it? 

Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies," (not knowing she is his princess lol)

[Arya-Jon]

 

Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies," (not knowing she is his princess lol)

Tbf there is also this.

Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. 

 

Arya does think she is dead. She is dead everytime she takes a new identity. So yeah, she has died that way. The prediction has come to pass.It is a foreshadowing of her joining the Faceless Men.

As far as the other sort of dying is concerened, all men die (Valar Morghulis) . The question is when she will die

  

do you have any “favorite characters” from A Song of Ice and Fire who you enjoy writing/simply like more than other characters?

Tyrion.  Arya is fun to write as well. 

 

  

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow’s arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing

 

The above two quotes do seem to rule out her dying any time soon. Considering how important Martin considers Arya, she would be there right till the end. It does not mean she will not die, but that if she will die it will be at the end. 

These two lines do seem to hint heavily at her survival

 

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”  Ned to Arya,

This is not Ned speaking. Ned would never expect her to marry Joffrey or Robert Baratheon. Or Stannis or Shireen. This is Martin and his foreshadowing speaking. And notice terms such as High Septon which indicate she would be queen in the south not north which is unlikely anyways because Bran, Rickon and Sansa’s claim is any way stronger than hers.

 

“Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

Father to queens not queen. Sansa is marrying Joffrey. But why queens? 

There are more hints in my post 

http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/134678673174/why-arya-will-be-queen-and-rule-for-some-years

The thing is if she has children and rules the castle , she will survive till that time. After that , maybe her foreshadowed death will take place right in the epilogue.

 

[EveningQueen]

I see this age as another age of heroes and we would have parallels to earlier heroes. She might be the symeon star eyes parallel.

[lojzelote]

Why did he make the Starks wargs and greenseer. A warg/greenseer can control wild animals. Why cant he control a magical wild animal like a dragon?  When the wargs themselves are a magical people. Of course this controlling may require some effort on his/her part. For instance even for Arya to control that cat in Bravos, she had to become friendly with it.  For Bran , maybe even the requirement of friendliness may not be there

You are making the rule that the icy starks cant control dragons. But its still your rules, until the author proves it is his rules too. While your reasoning holds validity in pure socialist way. Like all men are equal. So Starks must not be more powerful than Targs. But you are ignoring that the Targs are currently more powerful than all  the rest and can well do with a bit of sharing.

The last book of the Asoiaf was initially named "A time for wolves" before being changed to "A dream of Spring". This could mean the death of all dragons or simply that wolves may learn to control dragons. Who the hell knows? Maybe the wolves will learn about the magic that is required to control Dragons.

The thing is ice and fire can mate (as Meera and Jojen said). If they can mate then the so called icy people can control fiery dragons. In fact this may be among the many things the story shows, thus highlighting the interplay between ice and fire.

I find that reasoning more apt than a strict determination to keep dragons with Targs so much so that you make poeple who will later turn enemies into heads of a single dragon. While you are not flexible in the idea that anyone other than Targs can tame dragons. I am very clear that to be a head of the dragon your purpose must be one  and you must stay united until death do you apart, like in the case of Aegon, Visenya Rhaenys. And I just dont find three people with Targ blood who can fulfill that role. So I look to the Starks who may have the capacity to tame dragons and become one with them. (What else could be the reason Valyrians did not invade Westeros if not for the fear of wargs and greenseers).

That the dragons of the Targs were safe till now , may be because Greenseers can see the future and may have allowed them (Targs) to keep it, while most of the Wargs were wildings seperated by the Wall and could never journey that south, and even if they do, they could never get near dragons who are protected by soldiers. To start warging and to first establish the connection , unless you are a very powerful warg/greenseer like Bran, you must be near them.Bran is an exception as he can control ravens from far away.  And greenseers like Bran would never control Dragons for selfish reasons but only when they really need to and when the time is right. The right time never came before now when the World faces a threat of a everlasting winter.

Ultimately it depends on how we interpret things, and make predictions. But it is still our predictions fallible in every way because we are not Grrm,we know nothing, only Grrm knows.

 

Long story short, Valyrians/Targaryens have been introduced as the sole dragonriders in the world. Now we have three dragons and one official Targaryen (and Aegon, Bloodraven, etc, but I'm not really counting them, since they are secondary characters at best), but there are clues there are another two secret Targaryens amongst the main cast (I'm aware many people disagree with on Tyrion). Now, I wonder, who will be bonded with the remaining two dragons? ...yeah. I think it's as simple as that. So, even if you can make a convincing case that GRRM could write a dragonwarg Bran, it's just seems more probable to me, it's not the case.

Other than that IMO the Dany/Jon/Tyrion "team"/"replacement family"/whatever seems kind of fated, if you consider that Dany longs for home and family, Jon is bothered by the idea his father denied him his mother's identity and questions whether he truly ever was one of the Starks as a source of tension in the family and their social inferior, and Tyrion has been an object of scorn for many of the Lannisters since birth. IMHO, they are fit to form a new "unit"/"body"/"team" together far more than any other of proposed combinations.

As for A Time for Wolves, I think that it doesn't necessarily mean more for the Starks than A Feast for Crows meant for the Night's Watch. Quite the opposite, those guys had the least page time in their "eponymous" book out of all books published so far. The title referred instead to the country ravaged by the war. IMHO, A Time for Wolves may just as well refer refers to the "hour of the wolf":

"The hour of the wolf is "the hour between night and dawn during which the wolf is said to lurk outside people's doors, usually cited as between 3 and 5 AM. It is often referenced in works of literature, music, film and television."

"The Hour of the Wolf is the hour between night and dawn. It is the hour when most people die, when sleep is deepest, when nightmares are most real. It is the hour when the sleepless are haunted by their deepest fear, when ghosts and demons are most powerful. The Hour of the Wolf is also the hour when most children are born."

Seems like a fitting name for humanity's darkest hour when the Long Night comes, they are starving, freezing, fighting against the Others as well as fighting against each other. A Dream of Spring fits this idea very well, too. I.e., people trying to survive until the next spring, which seems to be a distant, unreal dream.

Of course, I expect that the Starks will be important, but I really don't think that the original title of the last book is any reason to assume that they'll be at the centre of every single action and have all the means at their disposal.