Does Arya survives at the end and furthers the stark family line through gendry?

[Arya-Jon]

I am not interested in creating any set theories. I just want to say there are many possibility grrm can write, it can be very surprising. 

For example, nobody said the marriage of dany and jon has to be a love based one. What if they had to do this to cement the alliance or maintain the targ blood? Like the rose war? (Very likely actually) 

And who can guarantee dany would not play a rhaenyra again and hunt arya for being stark after their marriage? Or maybe arya did something very wild and angered queen dany or made her jealous by showing off Jon's love in her? 

maybe arya was sent to murder the queen by someone and was caught, then it is possible that she wants to kill her? 

Who knows, maybe arya played as lyanna and tried to elope with king jon and abandon queen dany? After all jon is rhaegar's son. 

There are many possibilities. 

People are flawed, nobody is perfect. Subject to stubborn and mistakes. 

You only wanted to believe everything is perfect with jon and arya, I can see from your name, but what you decided is just your opinion. 

Jon can possibly marry dany, and dany can possibly order arya to die and jon can play daemon to try to save her thus betray his queen, it is a indeed possibility. 

 

 

Daenerys can turn into Rhaenyra. She can turn into Ramsay . She can turn into many things.

Yes she can order arya to die. Jon can be magically convinced to marry someone he does not like to cement an alliance.

Arya will try to copy Lyanna and anger Dany.  Dany can be so immature so as to order her hunting for that. Infact some people have argued that Jon can be a son of Brandon and Ashara. 

Jon can behave like Daemon and copy him.

All this is possible. I am fine when it is small changes in character. When there are radical changes in character which is not based on any kind of textual hint , I have one word for it: Crackpot .I mean when people randomly make parallels with a Daemon or a Rhaenyra or a Ramsay or a Nettles without any kind of textual hint. There are just so many characters a person can parallel. And the basis for the parallel is important. Or we can just have Sansa has reddish brown hair so she would go on to become a wilding and parallel Ygritte.

That said this forum does allow people to discuss all kinds of theories. But personally, dont quote me in those kinds of theories  as when you quote me it comes in my notificaction and causes me to react.

I just dont like those kinds. I am sorry. I have a personal hatred for theories made without any kind of proof , validation or textual hints.

[purple-eyes]

Daenerys can turn into Rhaenyra. She can turn into Ramsay . She can turn into many things.

Yes she can order arya to die. Jon can be magically convinced to marry someone he does not like to cement an alliance.

Arya will try to copy Lyanna and anger Dany.  Dany can be so immature so as to order her hunting for that. Infact some people have argued that Jon can be a son of Brandon and Ashara. 

Jon can behave like Daemon and copy him.

All this is possible. I am fine when it is small changes in character. When there are radical changes in character which is not based on any kind of textual hint , I have one word for it: Crackpot .I mean when people randomly make parallels with a Daemon or a Rhaenyra or a Ramsay or a Nettles without any kind of textual hint

That said this forum does allow people to discuss all kinds of theories. But personally, dont quote me in those kinds of theories  as when you quote me it comes in my notificaction and causes me to react.

I just dont like those kinds. I am sorry. I have a personal hatred for theories made without any kind of proof or validation.

I said these are possibilities. Not that they must happen. After all, only one version will become true in the end, it is very likely not the one you wish either. Unless you are grrm. 

Besides, jon does not need magic to convince him to marry somebody like dany for duty. 

As a leader, this is part of his job.

Kill the boy and get the man.

Boy follows hormones and man makes wise and beneficial decisions. 

To defeat others, he needs support from south, needs dragons. Needs many many things. I can see he goes into a political union for these things and this is right thing to do. 

If he simply loves dany and dany happens to be dragon queen and also loves him, there is no conflict and story is boring and unrealistic. 

It would be more grrm style that he married dany for duty but had his love in arya and at some point follow his heart to create new song of ice and fire and had to betray dany due to his love in arya. 

Jon said something like "he will never Have bastard! " this is a red flag in novel. If one figure says he will never do something, it is quite likely he ends up doing it. 

It is even possible that a newly flowered arya came back to murder dany then was caught and king consort jon met her then jon helped her escape from queen's wrath and arya left with a bastard in her belly. 

All possible. 

By the way, you quoted me so I quoted you. 

 

 

[Arya-Jon]

I said these are possibilities. Not that they must happen. After all, only one version will become true in the end, it is very likely not the one you wish either. Unless you are grrm. 

Besides, jon does not need magic to convince him to marry somebody like dany for duty. 

As a leader, this is part of his job.

Kill the boy and get the man.

Boy follows hormones and man makes wise and beneficial decisions. 

To defeat others, he needs support from south, needs dragons. Needs many many things. I can see he goes into a political union for these things and this is right thing to do. 

If he simply loves dany and dany happens to be dragon queen and also loves him, there is no conflict and story is boring and unrealistic. 

It would be more grrm style that he married dany for duty but had his love in arya and at some point follow his heart to create new song of ice and fire and had to betray dany due to his love in arya. 

Jon said something like "he will never Have bastard! " this is a red flag in novel. If one figure says he will never do something, it is quite likely he ends up doing it. 

It is even possible that a newly flowered arya came back to murder dany then was caught and king consort jon met her then jon helped her escape from queen's wrath and arya left with a bastard in her belly. 

All possible. 

By the way, you quoted me so I quoted you. 

 

 

Thats what I am saying . Everything is possible but it must be backed up by good reasoning. That is exactly what you are not doing. By the way I do back you on the possiblity of Jon marrying Dany. But that's because there are one or two strong textual hints for it. The same like for Jon/Arya.

But what would be the reason for it? Why would Dany ask him to marry her ? From what we have seen of her character do you think she is the kind who forces people to marry her? Or rather the kind who forces herself to marry someone for duty like Hizadhr?

The thing is if there is a marriage between Jon and Dany, it would be based on mutual love, or at the very least Jon loving her. Dany is just not the type who forces someone to marry her. (As far as conflict is concerned : I am still  not convinced that Jon would permanently abandon the night's watch so easily. And there are very few people around who can truly convince Jon to make a claim when at least in the eyes of the common peope he is a member of the night's watch. Maybe Dany? Or Arya and Dany combo? Is this out of tune with their character? I dont think it is and thats why I do not feel the need to provide textual evidence for it. Making such a claim will inevitably result in conflict because the realm has no love for those who they think are bastards . To make matters worse Jon has inherited his mother's look)

Dragons would be the reason why they meet, not the reason why they are forced to marry. As Tyrion said "Daenerys is above all a rescuer". (See: I am quoting textual evidence)

Other possibility could be that Dany seeks a alliance with the north and Jon asks for the help of dragons in exchange. (I hope you notice that I am not suggesting a possiblity which is out of tune with their character)

And that is where my problem with all your arguements lie. You are not really analyzing it in terms of textual hints and current character development which has been built over five books. Just because Grrm is unpredictable you are ignoring all previous character development and making them a different person. Changing someone's character as a person is only justified when there is textual evidence/foreshadowing for it.

Otherwise  there is no end to such discussions.

[Roswell]

It's unlikely for Dany to want to marry Jon.  She is more likely to marry Aegon.  Not necessarily because he's the real Aegon, but precisely because he's a Blackfyre.  George has been writing extensively about the rift between the Blackfyres and the Targaryen main family line.  There is a need for the two to reconcile for the kingdom to have permanent peace, or as much as peace as you can have in a feudal system. 

Jon + Dany is not going to guarantee peace.  Ice and Fire do not mix.  The Blackfyres will just continue their efforts down the road.  Dany is the last of the Targaryens, she has dragons, and Aegon is the Blackfyre prince.  It makes sense for them to marry.  Dany is necessary for the continued existence of the dragons.  Aegon is necessary for political reasons.  It doesn't mean they have to love one another, they just have to go through the formalities.  We know Dany will light a fire to love.  To love doesn't mean it ends in marriage.  Dany will do what is politically necessary as she is self-disciplined that way.  Aegon will likely fall in love with her from their first meeting.  Realistically, who would not fall in love with the mother of dragons.  That reconciles the two family lines and all those troublemakers from the Blackfyres hiding out in the Free Cities can come out of their hiding places.  The dragon eggs will hatch once more and we are back to the reign of another glorious dynasty.

The best pairing for Jon is Val, the wildling.  Jon is already seen as the next leader of the wildlings.  He can cement that by marrying someone that has respect, not the lineage as that is not important among the wildlings, in the eyes of the free folk that Val has.  His heart may yearn for Arya and it could end up that way, but we are talking about what makes sense.  Val makes sense.  Although given Jon's feelings for Arya, he may choose that direction.  I don't think Arya will be the foundation for the next line of Starks.  Arya is too messed up to mother normal children.  It's not going to work.  She has gone savage and really should live outside of society, like a true direwolf.   Arya is very sick in the head and only someone like Jon Snow can accept her.  I can see Jon, Arya, Rickon, and Brandon living together among the savage wildlings.  Sansa may die or may marry a Stark bannerman to inherit Winterfell. 

[Roswell]

I said these are possibilities. Not that they must happen. After all, only one version will become true in the end, it is very likely not the one you wish either. Unless you are grrm. 

Besides, jon does not need magic to convince him to marry somebody like dany for duty. 

As a leader, this is part of his job.

Kill the boy and get the man.

Boy follows hormones and man makes wise and beneficial decisions. 

To defeat others, he needs support from south, needs dragons. Needs many many things. I can see he goes into a political union for these things and this is right thing to do. 

If he simply loves dany and dany happens to be dragon queen and also loves him, there is no conflict and story is boring and unrealistic. 

It would be more grrm style that he married dany for duty but had his love in arya and at some point follow his heart to create new song of ice and fire and had to betray dany due to his love in arya. 

Jon said something like "he will never Have bastard! " this is a red flag in novel. If one figure says he will never do something, it is quite likely he ends up doing it. 

It is even possible that a newly flowered arya came back to murder dany then was caught and king consort jon met her then jon helped her escape from queen's wrath and arya left with a bastard in her belly. 

All possible. 

By the way, you quoted me so I quoted you. 

 

 

I doubt this happens.  Dany is very watchful for that third betrayal.  She will know.  She is smarter than Jon about these things, and most things.  Jon simply does not offer enough for Dany to consider him for marriage.  Aegon does.  Willas Tyrell does.  Even Darkstar offers more than Jon. 

[Scorpion92]

 

Why? I don't see any textual evidence that supports this. Gendry is large, strong, & a capable blacksmith but there is nothing to indicate that he's a leader or would be a good warrior or commander. He has had zero training in either. He knows nothing about military strategy. Men like Robert, Ned, Tywin, Tarly, etc. trained for years with masters at arms, were educated by maesters, & most certainly learned from/observed their father's councils & strategic planning. Gendry has had none of this. IIRC he can't read or write, can he even read a map? Gendry can forge swords but doesn't know how to properly handle them. I don't think martial skill is inherited, it is something one is trained & groomed for for years if not decades. 

Seriously? Leading Dany's army? I think this is even less likely than him having some inherited battle prowess & military skill. This is Dany we're talking about. Gendry is the natural born son of the man that murdered her brother, brought on the downfall of her house, nearly eradicated her entire family, & made several assassination attempts on her life. She's not going to be friendly towards him if they ever cross paths, let alone trust him to lead her army. Do you think she'll have anything to do with the usurper's bastard (or the usurper's dogs or their descendants)? Honestly, I think that's going to be Dany's downfall: her inability to ally with anyone that was associated with Robert's Rebellion. She's already shown to be stubborn, headstrong, & unwilling to listen to reason or view the history with any nuance whatsoever. She thinks Ned = The Mountain & is just as guilty for the murder of Rhaegar's children. Based on her previous actions/behavior, I think it's safe to assume that Dany will will be the mirror image of Robert Baratheon if/when she gets to Westeros & claims the throne. She will try to exterminate anyone associated with the usurper & his dogs in her eyes (think about her crucifying the 163 Great Masters in Mereen). Unless Tyrion can talk some sense into her, this could be her Achilles heel & lead to her downfall.

How did we get from Gendry leading Dany's armies to sitting on Jon's council?

Dont get me wrong, I like Gendry but I don't think the text supports your theory. Actually quite the opposite. Gendry doesn't exactly show much initiative in the books, he has zero interest in finding out why the queen wants him dead, why someone paid for his apprenticeship, or why he was sent to the wall. Most people would be curious, there has to be some reason why a nobody from Flea Bottom has caught the eye of all of these nobles right? Must be important or powerful or a threat to someone else's power. But Gendry doesn't care at all. Even the curious way everyone reacts when seeing him for the 1st time (internally noting his resemblance to Robert and/or Renly) is completely ignored by him. He doesn't want to play the game of thrones. He doesn't want to lead or rule. Gendry just wants a quiet, peaceful existence.

I hope he has something to do with the plot of the remaining books. But I highly doubt that marrying Ayra, allying with Dany, or leading armies is going to be a part of it.

 

He is already a knight of Hollow Hill, protects orphans and helps Brienne against Rorge, and as you said, he has genetics of his dad. I think all these attributes set him up on the path of a warrior.

And my point about him resembling all three Baratheon brothers will not appear simultaneously. It will develop step by step in the books. As you said, he does not have any military training, only physical gifts.

He is part of Brotherhood without Banners, an organization sworn to protect innocent and punish those who pray on the weak. Brotherhood's leader is Lady Stoneheart who turned it into her instrument of revenge so a lot of people are discouraged and abandoning like Edric Dayne.

The organization needs a good leader soon, or it will crumble and the folk of Riverlands will suffer a lot. Especially if you take into account that Red Wedding 2.0 in Riverrun will disgust a lot of people while some might enjoy the carnage, this is not what this organization stands for. If it continues this way, it will dishonor the memory of King Robert and Lord Eddard.

I think Jaime and Brienne's arrival will have a huge influence on Gendry. Brienne will probably participate on Jaime's behalf in Trial by Combat and slay Lem Lemoncloak with his Hound helmet, mirroring Beric and Hound's fight in the cave. After that, the story possibilities are endless, but I think Jaime and Brienne will spend some time with Brotherhood, and Gendry will not sit the entire storyline of books in the orphanage, his story is bound to intertwine with those two.

Now, as I said, first he needs to become a warrior and needs some training to do to wield a weapon. I think there is no one better suited for that than Brienne. She already associated him with Renly, plus he saved her life. If Gendry witnesses Brienne's skills against Lem he might be impressed and ask her to teach him how to fight since she owes him.

As he trains with Brienne (maybe even Jaime tags along and offers some tips) and becomes better warrior, he will be involved more and more with Brotherhood's operations. I think he will wield a hammer given as his favorite weapon given his physique, blacksmith background and a parallel to his father's love for this weapon. From there it is natural progression and a huge speculation road, but I believe his story arc is: 1) becoming a warrior (Robert phase) 2) as he shows and proves his skills as a warrior, more people in Brotherhood will respect and follow him more 3) as he is becoming a leader of men, he will show improving skills in strategy, command and stubborness to bend under pressure (Stannis phase) 4) as he grows more successful as a leader and a commander people will gravitate towards him, especially if he protects the innocents and weak folk of Riverlands given he can relate to them better than any lord (Renly phase).

So yeah, there you go, this is my thinking behind it. It might not be supported by the text, but I really believe he is the next Brotherhood leader which was formed ironically in the name of his father. Jaime and Brienne's presence will help and set him up on this path. We know one thing about Baratheons and Storm Kings - they have talent for war. I don't think Gendry will be involved in game of thrones or any political traps like that, but he will flourish as a military commander in the story because it is in his blood.

Regarding Dany, I think you are underestimating her judgement. If she will allow Tyrion into her court, whose family murdered her father, brother's wife, nephew and niece, and given she will have a complete picture of Robert's Rebellion upon her arrival to Westeros thanks again to Tyrion who I expect will open her eyes to a lot of things, she might not kill Gendry. As I said, he never knew his father, and his heritage never made his life easier, he earned everything in his life the hard way, so I think it will resonate with Dany because she had same kind of upbringing (of course, dragons help, but still). I even think Gendry will not want to be associated with Baratheons because he never knew them and considers himself an orphan of Flea Bottom. I give Dany a little bit more credit than everyone else because by that time she will grow as a character too and will not punish kids for the sins of their fathers (Tyrion and Gendry will be two examples, and maybe potentially Arya or Sansa).

And why would she kill a guy who is a follower of Red God, whose priests preach that Daenerys is next Azor Ahai reborn? By the time she arrives he will be a leader of Brotherhood as I have shown you above, so he will have backing and support of Riverlands smallfolk and maybe even some river lords as well. If she kills him, it will be a devastating political move for her. He will probably offer her his allegiance first.

Thanks to wonderful Fire Eater's essay, storywise Dany's invasion of Westeros will start on Dragonstone where she reclaims Targaryen ancestral seat. From there, she and Tyrion will get the Crackclaw Point (Bronn has claim on Rosby and Stokeworth) and the Vale (Tyrion's connection to mountain clans) on their side. The only way out of the Vale is through Riverlands (Trident), so Dany/Tyrion are destined to meet river lords and Brotherhood without Banners.

And you need to keep in mind that some officers of Golden Company like Tristan Rivers (who is a rumored Darry bastard cousin) will ask for lands and titles as a reward for backing Aegon. Not a lot of lords will be happy with that, so I see some tensions between Golden Company and river lords as well.

So yeah, her meeting with Gendry is inevitable, I hope I illustrated my reasoning for them becoming allies well.

Regarding him ending on Jon's council, it is my crackpot idea, but I think what Faith of Seven represents is the future post-Long Night government of Westeros. I think that King Jon Stark is manifestation of Father; Hand of the King/Prime Minister Sansa Stark - Maiden (first woman to become Hand if I am not mistaken); Mistress of Whisperers/Head of Intelligence Arya Stark - Stranger; Master of Coin/Minister of Finance Tyrion Lannister - Smith (he will be in charge of repairing the economy and infrastructure of devastated realm and maybe even find a first Westerosi bank, so basically he will deal with Westeros' money, he was Hand and Master of Coin in King's Landing and he is destined to be Hand of Dany, so I think his endgame is Master of Coin for King Jon); Grand Admiral/Master of Ships Davos Seaworth - Mother (I think he embodies Mother in a lot of ways, especially with Stannis); Grand Maester Samwell Tarly - Crone (the Citadel and the Night's Watch are foreshadowed to be destroyed, so I believe Sam will create a new organization and become its founder which will have similar functions to the Citadel of gathering knowledge on everything, but they will swear to record only truth, preserve it for the future generations and not rewrite history to their goals or means like the Citadel has been doing for millenia); and finally Grand Commander/Master of Law/Minister of Defence Gendry - Warrior (he will enforce king's law on Westeros and punish those who do not follow it and protect innocents and weak citizens from the powerful, he will also command newly formed royal armies of King Jon for the reasons I described above because he is going to be an amazing military commander).

So there you go. Wishful thinking maybe, but I expect all seven characters listed to live and survive through Battle of Dawn at least, so my theory might become true.

[Nevets]

I think I am the only Arya fan who actually thinks she may settle down and have a family, but not with either Gendry or Jon.  I don't know with who, but there are number of boys of squire age around.  If she happens to meet one of them, watch out.  I don't believe that she is too damaged to be able to settle down and have a normal life, although I do think that if she goes much further down the path of violence, she could become too damaged.

As far as her father's comments to her, he said "You will marry a king", not the king.  I think that the various kingdoms might split up,with the IT being in overall charge in a loose confederation.  In that case, Arya could marry a king and perhaps be co-ruler of a part of Westeros.

 

With regard to hers and Sansa's attachments:

Sansa is married to Tyrion.  The only way to end the marriage is for him to die,or for an annullment,which requires the High Septon's approval, which would be a political decision on his part.  But for the time being, she is in a valid marriage.

Arya is not married to Ramsay.  Jeyne is.  It could potentiallycause confusion later on, but it shoudn't [rpve too difficult to prove she didn't marry Ramsay.  also, her betrothal to Elmar Frey was cancelled by the Freys after Robb's marriage.

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

He is already a knight of Hollow Hill, protects orphans and helps Brienne against Rorge, and as you said, he has genetics of his dad. I think all these attributes set him up on the path of a warrior.

And my point about him resembling all three Baratheon brothers will not appear simultaneously. It will develop step by step in the books. As you said, he does not have any military training, only physical gifts.

He is part of Brotherhood without Banners, an organization sworn to protect innocent and punish those who pray on the weak. Brotherhood's leader is Lady Stoneheart who turned it into her instrument of revenge so a lot of people are discouraged and abandoning like Edric Dayne.

The organization needs a good leader soon, or it will crumble and the folk of Riverlands will suffer a lot. Especially if you take into account that Red Wedding 2.0 in Riverrun will disgust a lot of people while some might enjoy the carnage, this is not what this organization stands for. If it continues this way, it will dishonor the memory of King Robert and Lord Eddard.

I think Jaime and Brienne's arrival will have a huge influence on Gendry. Brienne will probably participate on Jaime's behalf in Trial by Combat and slay Lem Lemoncloak with his Hound helmet, mirroring Beric and Hound's fight in the cave. After that, the story possibilities are endless, but I think Jaime and Brienne will spend some time with Brotherhood, and Gendry will not sit the entire storyline of books in the orphanage, his story is bound to intertwine with those two.

Now, as I said, first he needs to become a warrior and needs some training to do to wield a weapon. I think there is no one better suited for that than Brienne. She already associated him with Renly, plus he saved her life. If Gendry witnesses Brienne's skills against Lem he might be impressed and ask her to teach him how to fight since she owes him.

As he trains with Brienne (maybe even Jaime tags along and offers some tips) and becomes better warrior, he will be involved more and more with Brotherhood's operations. I think he will wield a hammer given as his favorite weapon given his physique, blacksmith background and a parallel to his father's love for this weapon. From there it is natural progression and a huge speculation road, but I believe his story arc is: 1) becoming a warrior (Robert phase) 2) as he shows and proves his skills as a warrior, more people in Brotherhood will respect and follow him more 3) as he is becoming a leader of men, he will show improving skills in strategy, command and stubborness to bend under pressure (Stannis phase) 4) as he grows more successful as a leader and a commander people will gravitate towards him, especially if he protects the innocents and weak folk of Riverlands given he can relate to them better than any lord (Renly phase).

So yeah, there you go, this is my thinking behind it. It might not be supported by the text, but I really believe he is the next Brotherhood leader which was formed ironically in the name of his father. Jaime and Brienne's presence will help and set him up on this path. We know one thing about Baratheons and Storm Kings - they have talent for war. I don't think Gendry will be involved in game of thrones or any political traps like that, but he will flourish as a military commander in the story because it is in his blood.

Regarding Dany, I think you are underestimating her judgement. If she will allow Tyrion into her court, whose family murdered her father, brother's wife, nephew and niece, and given she will have a complete picture of Robert's Rebellion upon her arrival to Westeros thanks again to Tyrion who I expect will open her eyes to a lot of things, she might not kill Gendry. As I said, he never knew his father, and his heritage never made his life easier, he earned everything in his life the hard way, so I think it will resonate with Dany because she had same kind of upbringing (of course, dragons help, but still). I even think Gendry will not want to be associated with Baratheons because he never knew them and considers himself an orphan of Flea Bottom. I give Dany a little bit more credit than everyone else because by that time she will grow as a character too and will not punish kids for the sins of their fathers (Tyrion and Gendry will be two examples, and maybe potentially Arya or Sansa).

And why would she kill a guy who is a follower of Red God, whose priests preach that Daenerys is next Azor Ahai reborn? By the time she arrives he will be a leader of Brotherhood as I have shown you above, so he will have backing and support of Riverlands smallfolk and maybe even some river lords as well. If she kills him, it will be a devastating political move for her. He will probably offer her his allegiance first.

Thanks to wonderful Fire Eater's essay, storywise Dany's invasion of Westeros will start on Dragonstone where she reclaims Targaryen ancestral seat. From there, she and Tyrion will get the Crackclaw Point (Bronn has claim on Rosby and Stokeworth) and the Vale (Tyrion's connection to mountain clans) on their side. The only way out of the Vale is through Riverlands (Trident), so Dany/Tyrion are destined to meet river lords and Brotherhood without Banners.

And you need to keep in mind that some officers of Golden Company like Tristan Rivers (who is a rumored Darry bastard cousin) will ask for lands and titles as a reward for backing Aegon. Not a lot of lords will be happy with that, so I see some tensions between Golden Company and river lords as well.

So yeah, her meeting with Gendry is inevitable, I hope I illustrated my reasoning for them becoming allies well.

Regarding him ending on Jon's council, it is my crackpot idea, but I think what Faith of Seven represents is the future post-Long Night government of Westeros. I think that King Jon Stark is manifestation of Father; Hand of the King/Prime Minister Sansa Stark - Maiden (first woman to become Hand if I am not mistaken); Mistress of Whisperers/Head of Intelligence Arya Stark - Stranger; Master of Coin/Minister of Finance Tyrion Lannister - Smith (he will be in charge of repairing the economy and infrastructure of devastated realm and maybe even find a first Westerosi bank, so basically he will deal with Westeros' money, he was Hand and Master of Coin in King's Landing and he is destined to be Hand of Dany, so I think his endgame is Master of Coin for King Jon); Grand Admiral/Master of Ships Davos Seaworth - Mother (I think he embodies Mother in a lot of ways, especially with Stannis); Grand Maester Samwell Tarly - Crone (the Citadel and the Night's Watch are foreshadowed to be destroyed, so I believe Sam will create a new organization and become its founder which will have similar functions to the Citadel of gathering knowledge on everything, but they will swear to record only truth, preserve it for the future generations and not rewrite history to their goals or means like the Citadel has been doing for millenia); and finally Grand Commander/Master of Law/Minister of Defence Gendry - Warrior (he will enforce king's law on Westeros and punish those who do not follow it and protect innocents and weak citizens from the powerful, he will also command newly formed royal armies of King Jon for the reasons I described above because he is going to be an amazing military commander).

So there you go. Wishful thinking maybe, but I expect all seven characters listed to live and survive through Battle of Dawn at least, so my theory might become true.

Well, you've certainly put a lot of thought into it. I'm not going to quote or go point by point as to why I disagree because at this point, no one but Martin really knows what's going to happen. We're all speculating, I just prefer to keep my speculation grounded in actual textual evidence.

Gendry isn't a primary character, he's not a secondary character, he's barely a tertiary character with no POV & no POV characters around but Brienne. I highly doubt that Martin is going to devote so much time to the development of such a minor character when there are so many loose ends of major characters that need to be tied up. So although I hope Gendry does something in the last books, if he does I think it'll be something more suited to the canon we have of him instead of him becoming a completely different & majorly important player. For instance, Gendry being an apprentice to Tobho Mott (the only blacksmith that knows how to rework Valyrian steel) may make him an integral part of arming the 7 Kingdoms to fight the Others. This takes things we already know: Gendry has some importance -> Gendry is a good blacksmith -> Gendry studied under Tobho Mott -> Tobho Mott can rework Valyrian steel -> Valyria steel kills the Others... & follows those existing facts to a plausible theory -> Gendry's smithing skills may be used in the future to create Valyrian steel weapons that'll be used against the Others.

What you're suggesting, although quite creative, is basically fanfic. There's nothing in the text to support and/or foreshadow it. Could it happen? Sure. Anything is possible in ASoIAF. Is there anything to suggest that it will happen that way? Absolutely not aside from you thinking that it'd be cool. & im not saying that to be dismissive, it's just that I can't debate when we're just talking about what someone would like to happen or things would be cool but there's nothing to support it. I can't debate your imagination.

One think I will point out, you mentioned Tyrion as an example of Dany accepting Gendry into her court or services. Tyrion still hasn't met Dany in the books, only on the show, we don't know if they will meet & what will happen when they do. The show isn't canon. 

[Arya-Jon]

I think I am the only Arya fan who actually thinks she may settle down and have a family, but not with either Gendry or Jon.  I don't know with who, but there are number of boys of squire age around.  If she happens to meet one of them, watch out.  I don't believe that she is too damaged to be able to settle down and have a normal life, although I do think that if she goes much further down the path of violence, she could become too damaged.

As far as her father's comments to her, he said "You will marry a king", not the king.  I think that the various kingdoms might split up,with the IT being in overall charge in a loose confederation.  In that case, Arya could marry a king and perhaps be co-ruler of a part of Westeros.

 

I wont rule out her ruling over entire Westeros at all. Grrm made this statement 

 

Q: 5-year gap?

A: It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, "Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it's been kinda nice." And Cersei chapters where she thought, "Well, I've had to kill sooo many people the last five years." So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn't told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."-Grrm

Read the bolded part. This interview was in 2005 after The Storm of Swords was published.

Who could be the mystery 12 year old who will conquer Westeros? 

Case1 : Dany-She cant be because she was 13 when it started. Is 15 -16 now. If she ever conquers she will certainly not be 12 at that time

Case 2: Bran- He could be a potential 12 year old who conquers. But the thing is that Grrm is averse to magic being used to accomplish major tasks as he mentions in this link http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/books/2013-08-29/lonestarcon-3-the-george-r-r-martin-interview/. And Bran's arc is completly magic. So that is highly unlikely.

Case 3: Arya . She is 11 now and could be 12 by ADOS. She is good at disguising herself,detecting lies, making potions , poisons and is more adept at killing people. She knows about the secret passageways in Red Keep. She used those secret passageways to escape King's landing when her father was arrrested. so she can use it to get back in and maybe prowl around the castle. And there are many things she could use. Including Wildfire which is a ticking timebomb burried in King's Landing.

If she is the one, Martin is talking about, the only person I see her taking such a risk for is Jon. She is the one thing no one would ever expect. The surprise package. 

Plus there is the Ghost of Highheart Prophesy which called her dark heart.  So maybe she would burst the entire wildfire at King's landing to someway prevent Team Varys or someone else to destroy Jon's ships using them. Who knows? In some way she would be justified in doing that. Because hey, in her place could you bear to lose another brother/protector after all that has happened to her family. Would you not mercilessly kill the enemies of your family/pack like a wolf would. That would be similar to Summerhall. which the ghost of highheart referred to . And it is faceless men who caused the doom of Valyria.

But if she does conquer it this way,  or simply by assasinating the requisite people , she would certainly co-rule. Usually conquerors rule. Have never heard of a case to the contrary. So if she is staying at King's Landing with Jon, it would be as Queen considering their love . 

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

 

I wont rule out her ruling over entire Westeros at all. Grrm made this statement 

 

Read the bolded part. This interview was in 2005 after The Storm of Swords was published.

Who could be the mystery 12 year old who will conquer Westeros? 

Case1 : Dany-She cant be because she was 13 when it started. Is 15 -16 now. If she ever conquers she will certainly not be 12 at that time

Case 2: Bran- He could be a potential 12 year old who conquers. But the thing is that Grrm is averse to magic being used to accomplish major tasks as he mentions in this link http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/books/2013-08-29/lonestarcon-3-the-george-r-r-martin-interview/. And Bran's arc is completly magic. So that is highly unlikely.

Case 3: Arya . She is 11 now and could be 12 by ADOS. She is good at disguising herself,detecting lies, making potions , poisons and is more adept at killing people. She knows about the secret passageways in Red Keep. She used those secret passageways to escape King's landing when her father was arrrested. so she can use it to get back in and maybe prowl around the castle. And there are many things she could use. Including Wildfire which is a ticking timebomb burried in King's Landing.

If she is the one, Martin is talking about, the only person I see her taking such a risk for is Jon. She is the one thing no one would ever expect. The surprise package. 

Plus there is the Ghost of Highheart Prophesy which called her dark heart.  So maybe she would burst the entire wildfire at King's landing to someway prevent Team Varys or someone else to destroy Jon's ships using them. Who knows? In some way she would be justified in doing that. Because hey, in her place could you bear to lose another brother/protector after all that has happened to her family. Would you not mercilessly kill the enemies of your family/pack like a wolf would. That would be similar to Summerhall. which the ghost of highheart referred to . And it is faceless men who caused the doom of Valyria.

But if she does conquer it this way,  or simply by assasinating the requisite people , she would certainly co-rule. Usually conquerors rule. Have never heard of a case to the contrary. So if she is staying at King's Landing with Jon, it would be as Queen considering their love . 

 

 

 

I sincerely think GRRM was just using a random number here. He was not talking about a specific 12 -year old conqueror.

(Even so, that would be Bran the new builder)

The two main figures of this book who can be conquerors are obviously Jon and Dany. One or both are promised prince for this world. 

Arya is not a conqueror. She is not the promised prince, or AA, or Last hero, or the chosen one. 

By your logic, she conquered the world using her special skills (what skills by the way? Both Jon and Dany had way better skills and armies and dragons than her) in order to give the power to Jon her beloved. During this process she also needs to suppress the mother of dragons, leader of dothraki and unsullied. 

This just can not happen. you overestimated this figure. She is not on the ultimate conqueror track. 

 

 

[Arya-Jon]

 

The two main figures of this book who can be conquerors are obviously Jon and Dany. One or both are promised prince for this world. 

Arya is not a conqueror. She is not the promised prince, or AA, or Last hero, or the chosen one. 

During this process she also needs to suppress the mother of dragons, leader of dothraki and unsullied. 

This just can not happen. you overestimated this figure. She is not on the ultimate conqueror track. 

 

 

Point 1: A promised prince is a prince not a king or a queen. Prince and king/queen are different. Dany was a prince/princess the day she was born.  

Point 2: Conqueror is not equal to a Promised Prince or Azor Ahai. They are two different things.

I feel that Arya will not be against Dany at all. If you want to know how I think it will play out

Here you go: http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/132985969484/my-predicted-asoiaf-endgame-based-on-grrms-hints

If you do read it , maybe we can have a more informed debate. I tried to base it on what I feel is foreshadowing and GRRM quotes.

Warning: The endgame I wrote is very very long.

[Scorpion92]

Well, you've certainly put a lot of thought into it. I'm not going to quote or go point by point as to why I disagree because at this point, no one but Martin really knows what's going to happen. We're all speculating, I just prefer to keep my speculation grounded in actual textual evidence.

Gendry isn't a primary character, he's not a secondary character, he's barely a tertiary character with no POV & no POV characters around but Brienne. I highly doubt that Martin is going to devote so much time to the development of such a minor character when there are so many loose ends of major characters that need to be tied up. So although I hope Gendry does something in the last books, if he does I think it'll be something more suited to the canon we have of him instead of him becoming a completely different & majorly important player. For instance, Gendry being an apprentice to Tobho Mott (the only blacksmith that knows how to rework Valyrian steel) may make him an integral part of arming the 7 Kingdoms to fight the Others. This takes things we already know: Gendry has some importance -> Gendry is a good blacksmith -> Gendry studied under Tobho Mott -> Tobho Mott can rework Valyrian steel -> Valyria steel kills the Others... & follows those existing facts to a plausible theory -> Gendry's smithing skills may be used in the future to create Valyrian steel weapons that'll be used against the Others.

What you're suggesting, although quite creative, is basically fanfic. There's nothing in the text to support and/or foreshadow it. Could it happen? Sure. Anything is possible in ASoIAF. Is there anything to suggest that it will happen that way? Absolutely not aside from you thinking that it'd be cool. & im not saying that to be dismissive, it's just that I can't debate when we're just talking about what someone would like to happen or things would be cool but there's nothing to support it. I can't debate your imagination.

One think I will point out, you mentioned Tyrion as an example of Dany accepting Gendry into her court or services. Tyrion still hasn't met Dany in the books, only on the show, we don't know if they will meet & what will happen when they do. The show isn't canon. 

Well, I apologize if I have gone too far into fanfic theory, and thank you because sometimes people are too dismissive about my ideas (at least you don't deny they might happen, it is a win for me lol), it is just from everything I have read from the books and seen on the show (even though I am aware show is not canon) it seems like Gendry will be the last Baratheon standing in the end (it is a shame because I love Mya Stone and Edric Storm), and his symbolism with a bull makes me think he will not accept Baratheon name and stag as his sigil.

But nonetheless because he is last of the Storm Kings' bloodline, he is destined to be in the middle of Westerosi events and have some importance. From there I try to map out possible future storylines given all the info and clues in the books and the show.

And actually your point about Tobho Mott MIGHT work in my favor, because we know that Valyrian steel was forged in Old Valyria, and there are theories that Valyrian steel is forged in dragonfire. Dany is the only one who has dragons, so it is another argument that she might ally with Gendry and provide dragonfire to forge more Valyrian steel.

And I will actually go into fanfic territory more that the knowledge of forging Valyrian steel which was lost to Doom and time will be discovered by Samwell Tarly in the Citadel (and might be protected by maesters due to their involvement in killing dragons during first dance). Since he is member of the Night's Watch and finds ways to stop White Walkers, he might pass this information to Dany and Gendry. But it is all speculation of course.

Regarding Tyrion, oh absolutely, it will be different in the books, I have no doubts. But Tyrion healing Viserion after Yunkai attacks and finding out the true identity of Harpy (who is Green Grace probably, and he already had a little experience finding out moles like with Pycelle) are game changers which will at least allow Dany to hear him out and not kill him on the spot just because he is a Lannister. And we know that once Tyrion opens his mouth, he either gets in trouble or charms the listener. Since he will only have one chance with khaleesi he will not blow it. Unfortunately, if we learned anything from Tywin and Aerys, a lion eventually betrays a dragon, and once Dany defeats Aegon and conquers the South she will face her third betrayal by love - Tyrion freeing captuted Jaime to avoid his execution.

But of course it is a big speculation, so we will have to wait and see I guess.

[Bellenora Black Pearl]

Well, I apologize if I have gone too far into fanfic theory, and thank you because sometimes people are too dismissive about my ideas (at least you don't deny they might happen, it is a win for me lol), it is just from everything I have read from the books and seen on the show (even though I am aware show is not canon) it seems like Gendry will be the last Baratheon standing in the end (it is a shame because I love Mya Stone and Edric Storm), and his symbolism with a bull makes me think he will not accept Baratheon name and stag as his sigil.

But nonetheless because he is last of the Storm Kings' bloodline, he is destined to be in the middle of Westerosi events and have some importance. From there I try to map out possible future storylines given all the info and clues in the books and the show.

And actually your point about Tobho Mott MIGHT work in my favor, because we know that Valyrian steel was forged in Old Valyria, and there are theories that Valyrian steel is forged in dragonfire. Dany is the only one who has dragons, so it is another argument that she might ally with Gendry and provide dragonfire to forge more Valyrian steel.

And I will actually go into fanfic territory more that the knowledge of forging Valyrian steel which was lost to Doom and time will be discovered by Samwell Tarly in the Citadel (and might be protected by maesters due to their involvement in killing dragons during first dance). Since he is member of the Night's Watch and finds ways to stop White Walkers, he might pass this information to Dany and Gendry. But it is all speculation of course.

Regarding Tyrion, oh absolutely, it will be different in the books, I have no doubts. But Tyrion healing Viserion after Yunkai attacks and finding out the true identity of Harpy (who is Green Grace probably, and he already had a little experience finding out moles like with Pycelle) are game changers which will at least allow Dany to hear him out and not kill him on the spot just because he is a Lannister. And we know that once Tyrion opens his mouth, he either gets in trouble or charms the listener. Since he will only have one chance with khaleesi he will not blow it. Unfortunately, if we learned anything from Tywin and Aerys, a lion eventually betrays a dragon, and once Dany defeats Aegon and conquers the South she will face her third betrayal by love - Tyrion freeing captuted Jaime to avoid his execution.

But of course it is a big speculation, so we will have to wait and see I guess.

No need to thank me. I think fanfic can be a fun way for people to explore the series & pass the time between books. I know Martin isn't crazy about it, but in all honesty everyone is desperate for new material so they fill their time with thinking & saying "what if..."

I'm too much of a type "A" personality & not very imaginative so I tend to be pretty cerebral when it comes to theorizing. Yeah, im a bore. I think there's one thing we can all agree on: we desperately lees WoW or season 6! Lol.

[Winter's Cold]

I sincerely think GRRM was just using a random number here. He was not talking about a specific 12 -year old conqueror.

(Even so, that would be Bran the new builder)

The two main figures of this book who can be conquerors are obviously Jon and Dany. One or both are promised prince for this world. 

Arya is not a conqueror. She is not the promised prince, or AA, or Last hero, or the chosen one. 

By your logic, she conquered the world using her special skills (what skills by the way? Both Jon and Dany had way better skills and armies and dragons than her) in order to give the power to Jon her beloved. During this process she also needs to suppress the mother of dragons, leader of dothraki and unsullied. 

This just can not happen. you overestimated this figure. She is not on the ultimate conqueror track. 

 

 

Arya has a pack of wolves at her call and she's been called blood child by the Ghost of the High Heart indicating that she has a high capacity for bloodshed.  She fits the definition of a conqueror better than Bran at least. 

[purple-eyes]

Arya has a pack of wolves at her call and she's been called blood child by the Ghost of the High Heart indicating that she has a high capacity for bloodshed.  She fits the definition of a conqueror better than Bran at least. 

it is impossible to conquer the world by her pack of wolves. 

Otheriwise wildlings already conquered the world. 

They are not short of skin changers and they are not short of wolves. 

You need large army as well as nuclear weapon (dragon).

 

[Arya-Jon]

it is impossible to conquer the world by her pack of wolves. 

Otheriwise wildlings already conquered the world. 

They are not short of skin changers and they are not short of wolves. 

You need large army as well as nuclear weapon (dragon).

 

But what if there are dragons on both sides. Grrm has clearly stated there will be a second dance of dragons. In the last dance there were dragons on both sides. Only then it is dance, right? Or you could simply call it the blackyre rebellion or some other name?

Many people think that it will be Tyrion who wil betray Dany and also get Viserion (There are theories out there regarding Tyrion riding Viserion based on what they think is textual hints. There is foreshadowing of Tyrion betrayal which i have mentioned in my endgame post) . How much will dragons help when Tyrion will be making his masterplans and setting one trap after another? Oh and there is wildfire in King's Landing.

Tyrion has been called as someone with a "Big shadow" . To beat him would be tough, almost impossible from conventional means.

Its here that I think Arya will prove to be the wildcard. Tyrion is prepared for many things. But the last thing he would expect is a 12 year old to come along and kick ass. Just like you, who do not think it is possible, even he would underestimate her. 

She will probably infiltrate Kings Landing using the same passageways she used to escape Kings Landing and kill off the bad guys, by wildfire or simply by assasinating. I think the ghost of high heart prophesy cleary implies that she will kill a lot of people.

The way I visualize it , Jon would be marching to Kings Landing in a seemingly doomed cause. Maybe in revenge for Dany's death.  Until Arya will do something that no one will expect and turn the game on its head and in the process save Jon from a fatal defeat.

I know a lot of this may seem improbable, but as my endgame post below suggests there is foreshadowing and hints for the same.
http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/132985969484/my-predicted-asoiaf-endgame-based-on-grrms-hints

 

[LongRider]

Arya returns to the Riverlands and reunites with Nym and the pack.  Gendry starts making Valerian steel swords.  They get together and become the Riverlands most dangerous power couple.

[purple-eyes]

Arya returns to the Riverlands and reunites with Nym and the pack.  Gendry starts making Valerian steel swords.  They get together and become the Riverlands most dangerous power couple.

I thought nobody can make new valyria steel swords? Only reforge. 

 

 

 

[Drogonthedread]

No need to thank me. I think fanfic can be a fun way for people to explore the series & pass the time between books. I know Martin isn't crazy about it, but in all honesty everyone is desperate for new material so they fill their time with thinking & saying "what if..."

I'm too much of a type "A" personality & not very imaginative so I tend to be pretty cerebral when it comes to theorizing. Yeah, im a bore. I think there's one thing we can all agree on: we desperately lees WoW or season 6! Lol.

i agree with what you said on gendry but completely disagree with what you said about dany ...

 she never holds grudge against children for their parents mistake ....the children of the masters is the good example of this ...she loved them and cared for them did not hurt them ....and she always listen to the council you can see always see her listening to everyone in the council and then decides what is the best solution..she always listens to what her enemies and betrayers has to say And For that MMd ,jorah ,barristan and BBP and kraznys all examples for that ...

But what if there are dragons on both sides. Grrm has clearly stated there will be a second dance of dragons. In the last dance there were dragons on both sides. Only then it is dance, right? Or you could simply call it the blackyre rebellion or some other name?

Many people think that it will be Tyrion who wil betray Dany and also get Viserion (There are theories out there regarding Tyrion riding Viserion based on what they think is textual hints. There is foreshadowing of Tyrion betrayal which i have mentioned in my endgame post) . How much will dragons help when Tyrion will be making his masterplans and setting one trap after another? Oh and there is wildfire in King's Landing.

Tyrion has been called as someone with a "Big shadow" . To beat him would be tough, almost impossible from conventional means.

Its here that I think Arya will prove to be the wildcard. Tyrion is prepared for many things. But the last thing he would expect is a 12 year old to come along and kick ass. Just like you, who do not think it is possible, even he would underestimate her. 

She will probably infiltrate Kings Landing using the same passageways she used to escape Kings Landing and kill off the bad guys, by wildfire or simply by assasinating. I think the ghost of high heart prophesy cleary implies that she will kill a lot of people.

The way I visualize it , Jon would be marching to Kings Landing in a seemingly doomed cause. Maybe in revenge for Dany's death.  Until Arya will do something that no one will expect and turn the game on its head and in the process save Jon from a fatal defeat.

I know a lot of this may seem improbable, but as my endgame post below suggests there is foreshadowing and hints for the same.
http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/132985969484/my-predicted-asoiaf-endgame-based-on-grrms-hints

 

i think that GRRm is talking about dany here and the age was just randomly used by him.....she is the only conqueror in the story not others ...dany started at 13 and I think that's what GR is referring here if he had done five year gap she would be around 20 when she conquers westeros...but now she will be 15 year old conquering westeros...not at all a difference from 12 

 

OP : I can see arya survive and part of the council as master of whisperers

 

 

 

[LongRider]

I thought nobody can make new valyria steel swords? Only reforge.

 

Well that's what he's doing of course!  Arya doesn't come back from Braavos empty handed, she's too smart for that.