Does Arya survives at the end and furthers the stark family line through gendry?

[Joan Jett]

lol these Arya/Jon fangirls are all over the place

Arya is not among George's big three. his 'big three' was Tyrion, Jon and Dany. And as George said, sometimes his fans tend to make something out of his simple words. Sometimes words are only words. And as you said you're free to stand for your theories but boom! your statement 

then either you are just trolling or yeah maybe what Joan said abt you is true. 

just proves that you're just like the other fangirl who calls theories they don't like 'dumb'. You basically contradicted urself. 

MerryXmas btw

Okay now you're just plain wrong. 

Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?
George_RR_Martin: Say something to the reader? No, Im just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader.

'Sometimes words are just words', nope! Sorry pal that's not the case with Jon and Arya. According to GRRM everything in the book says something to the reader when its about them. And I may be a fangirl, but at least I have textual evidence and interviews from the author to support my ship, lol. 

And just for clarification, I said that the 'Arya dies in a ditch and lives in Nymeria for the rest of her life' theory is dumb because it completely ignores Arya's story thus far. So yes, I happen not to like it.  Also your weird theory that Arya and Jon will be king and queen after they die and warg their wolves doesn't really work. Arya's prophecy says that her sons will be princes, knights, a highsepton, etc. A wolf pup can't be high septon.  

[Nyrhex]

 Arya's prophecy says that her sons will be princes, knights, a highsepton, etc. A wolf pup can't be high septon.  

That's not a prophecy, that's Ned's delusions regarding his daughter, and Arya also cuts him right after with "No, that's Sansa".

To OP:

Arya's story is one of revenge, she has nothing to do after that, and anyone who thinks she is going to have a happy ending is not paying attention to the books s/he is reading. Her story can only end in her death, and not from old age.

It is also far more likely that Gendry and Sansa end up together, and on the IT, IMHO. 

[Arya-Jon]

 

That's not a prophecy, that's Ned's delusions regarding his daughter, and Arya also cuts him right after with "No, that's Sansa".

Whether it is or it is not prophesy is up for debate. But that Arya cuts him right after with "No, that's Sansa" actually gives support to the theory that it is a prophesy.

We know that George Martin gives only subtle foreshadowing. Not unsubtle. So for something to be foreshadowing, the listener must either not understand the meaning at all or misinterpret the meaning(like Arya did) . 

I shall give you an example

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

Mormont's Raven is calling Jon a King. But, guess what Jon says. He tells Mormont " I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.". He has misinterpreted it and thinks the raven is calling Mormont a King.  

If you are expecting Martin to give you foreshadowing on a platter then you have been reading the wrong book. He always tries to disguise it that way. In the house of undying Dany has simply not been able to figure out what the prohesies meant. Cersei has misinterpreted the Valonqar prophesy.

And in this particular case, Ned's statement was not at all logical. There was no way he would be expecting Arya to marry Stannis or someone of that kind. That is the reason some people think that it is  Martin who is giving a foreshadowing through Ned's mouth. Of course it could be Ned playing with his little daughter. Even I would have thought that way , if there was not another queen reference.

“Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

Sansa is marrying Joffrey. But why queens not queen.

I am pretty sure Martin is playing with us here and this is actual foreshadowing. ( Especially when we look at the fact that in the initial outline Jon was in love with his sister and who was a heir to the throne. ). If you wish I can give you many lines from "A Dance with Dragons" that show that the something really powerful is still going on with Jon/Arya.

Though you would  find most of it in a post by ice turtle. In page 13 comment 3.

There are similar ones for  AGOT , ACOK and ASOS in the same thread.

[ultravioletgaia]

 

We are here to have a polite conversation, not one where we lol at what each other has to say. Especially when it is based on textual evidence and author quotes.

so saying 'lol' is ruder than 'dumb'? wth????

When someone gives poorly reasoned theories  , is rude, insults people using  "lol these Arya/Jon fangirls are all over the place"

It's a FACT. It's not an insult. You Arya/Jon fangirls ARE all over the place. IT's the same with Stanearys, Gendrya, SanSan and Jorah/Dany. Why in hell are you insulted?

If you did mean what you said, I would like to see Nymeria giving birth to a high septon ,lords and princes. That would be as good a sight as seing Ghost the direwolf juggle.Do you think your theory about "Nymeria being Ghost's queen ruling out Arya being Jon' s queen in human form" is an intelligent one? 

Exactly. That's why your wishful theory's impossible. They can't have half-human babes anymore than they could marry and live Happily Ever Aftuuurrr. 

Maybe he was mentioning Arya randomly here and has randomly paired her with Jon and Tyrion and called them major characters.

Maybe. Yea. Maybe.

Yes, you may say Dany is more important and that is a fair point which cannot be disproven untill we actually get Dreams of Spring on our hand.

WHat? Dany is already more important even without ADOS. The ending whatever the outcome will be, wouldn't change that.

If you are interested in having a discussion where you back up  your theory with evidence ,and without being rude you are welcome. Else bye bye.

I just greeted you merry christmas man. Don't need to get offended. (Really that's rude to you?) 

 

[ultravioletgaia]

 

And just for clarification, I said that the 'Arya dies in a ditch and lives in Nymeria for the rest of her life'

Arya dies in a ditch really? Where did i say that?

theory is dumb because it completely ignores Arya's story thus far. So yes, I happen not to like it.

Yes. you don't like it. That's why you call it 'dumb'. I wonder how many theories you disliked and called 'dumb'...ah no don't tell me.

 Also your weird theory that Arya and Jon will be king and queen after they die and warg their wolves doesn't really work. Arya's prophecy says that her sons will be princes, knights, a highsepton, etc. A wolf pup can't be high septon.  

I wonder what you think when Ned tells Cat "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years." is every thought of Ned a prophecy to you? wth.  Ah no don't tell me.

So your theory is Arya will be Queen by marrying King Jon Snow and have a dozen half-undead babies with him to rule Westeros. Or the North. OR Whatever. If he could even procreate. I don't know about you, but i wouldn't want a coldblooded killer for a queen. That would be like Cersei 2.0 

[Arya-Jon]

WHat? Dany is already more important even without ADOS. The ending whatever the outcome will be, wouldn't change that.

You think so ?  A character who is important in the first book (Eddard Stark), does not remain the most important character in the series. Something similar with Robb. Jon Snow in particular appeared to be a less important character in the first two books compared to Robb and the rest ,until Storm of Swords came. So if we had not noticed that Jon is a POV and a possible poster boy of the author, we may have taken Robb to be more important when only the first two books had come out

What I mean to say is that what a character had done in the past may not be a measure of importance because the major action is still to come, in Winds of winter and ADOS.

The last book is very important, because it will tell us who dies, who lives, who plays a major role in what. Who lives on and rules. Untill we see that, we can never make a judgement on importance.

Character death can change things. If Arya dies, before completing a task (like Robb), her importance reduces. Same with Dany.  

When you give a lot of POV chapters to someone like Catelyn (who tells us about Robb's war) or Eddard (who tells us about the politics in Kings landing) it makes a lot of sense. But why  give the third most number of POV chapters (Yes, she has the most POV chapters after Jon and Tyrion) to someone like Arya. when there is almost nothing of importance going around her for most of the time. For most part she is with Sandor, Brotherhood without Banners and Bravos, seperated from the politics, wars and whitewalkers. There is close to nothing taking place in Bravos until Winds of Winter. Unless she will gain in importance as the series goes on, this tactic by the author does not make much sense . How important she will be is something we can tell only when we get the last book in our hand.

is every thought of Ned a prophecy to you; the Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years.

 For something to be foreshadowing , it must be about the future.

Ned's statement to Catelyn is not foreshadowing for this very reason. It is about the past. 

For something to be foreshadowing- It must be about the future,  the listener or the person about whom the foreshadowing is about should  either not understand its meaning at all or not notice it or should  doubt its possiblity and/or  misinterprets it.  However, the observant reader may understand its meaning. The difficulty level with which the reader understands its meaning depends on the author and his style.  Very rarely does the listener to the foreshadowing, be it Jon, Arya, Dany or Catelyn  understand the meaning completely and notice that what is being said is foreshadowing as that would be unsubtle. Grrm imo never gives the unsubtle ones.

Ned's dialogue with Arya ticks those boxes. Arya strongly doubts the possiblity of his words. Possibly misinterprets it. And while a observant reader may pick things out and wonder why Ned is talking about a king and not a lord (How many kings are there moving around?), most people would skip over it.  I myself did not see anything to it in my first read . But when I did get it , it was because someone mentioned something about it in this forum,.

Ned's dialogue reminds me of this one with Mormont and Jon

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

Here Jon doubts the possiblity of him being King so much that he thinks the raven is calling Mormont a King and says "I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.".

There are also examples of the listener misinterpreting a prophesy.. For instance Cersei with the Valonqar prophesy thinks the valonqar is Tyrion. Possibly Dany in the house of undying also misinterprets the prophesy's meaning . Though with Dany its more case 1,ie she the listener is unable to understand its meaning.

There is the possiblity that Ned is saying this to entertain a small child. But if so, why did he say this -

“Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

Sansa is marrying Joffrey. But why queens not queen. Here there is no child to be entertained. He had no need to say queens.

[Nerevanin]

My humble opinion is NO. Firstly, I've never understood that Gendry+Arya=Love thing, to me they are more like siblings. Secondly, I am quite sure that it will be Sansa who will the matriarch of the future Stark line. My opinion is that Arya will return to Westeros for a time, do something crucial there (maybe killing the last person on her little creepy list?), maybe meet her family (I would really love her to meet with Sansa) and then disappears like a rogue assassin, maybe with Nymeria by her side.

[Winter's Cold]

My humble opinion is NO. Firstly, I've never understood that Gendry+Arya=Love thing, to me they are more like siblings. Secondly, I am quite sure that it will be Sansa who will the matriarch of the future Stark line. My opinion is that Arya will return to Westeros for a time, do something crucial there (maybe killing the last person on her little creepy list?), maybe meet her family (I would really love her to meet with Sansa) and then disappears like a rogue assassin, maybe with Nymeria by her side.

Hard for Sansa to be the matriarch considering that she has no direwolf and is far more of a follower than a leader. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Hard for Sansa to be the matriarch considering that she has no direwolf and is far more of a follower than a leader. 

Consider this.  Maybe having a direwolf is a bad thing as it is a connection to the Old Gods and Skin-changing.  The direwolves make the Stark kids physically stronger, but they also make them more savage.  It is no doubt to me that Summer saved Bran's life and lent his strength to the broken boy during his coma.  However, take a careful read and see how the Stark kids now enjoy the taste of human flesh.  Bran has even eaten wights, via Summer. 

For all this talk of dragons being savages and dangerous, it is actually the direwolves who are more so.  We now see Nymeria stalking and terrorizing people in the riverlands.  We get a glimpse of Bran eating and enjoying human blood through summer.  This is in ASOS.  The following chapter, we see the dragons out at sea, playing games with each other.  Drogon fries a flying fish, for his first hunt.  Nowhere do the dragons stalk humans.  So, who is the more savage race?  I'm saying the direwolves are.  Thank god wolves can't fly and breathe flames or the riverlands would be in ruins.

[Nerevanin]

Hard for Sansa to be the matriarch considering that she has no direwolf and is far more of a follower than a leader. 

 

It's true that Lady is dead. So? I haven't noticed that Ned or his father had a pet direwolf by their side and that it stopped them to continue the Stark line... Sansa was a follower, now she's slowly becoming a player of the game. From the TWOW sample chapter it is evident that under Littlefinger's influence she's becoming bolder and more confident and more independent.

EDIT: And it's not like superious leader qualities are necessary for one to become a lord or a lady and the patriarch or matriarch of a house...

[Dark Syster]

I was actually glad when the thread went off topic, but here we are again with ship wars.

I don't have a preference for anybody, but I think that the fact that we saw JonxArya in the letter but other stuff was censored means that it's probably not going to happen. The only specific bits we can read are things that happened in the currently available novels, or things that never come to pass because they were scrapped. Sure there is general summary of the end, but I think everyone can come to the conclusion that the climax of the conflict will incorporate all the narrative threads of the story. That's not a spoiler. That's how endings in general should be. Again, not hating on Jon/Arya. I think the concept is cute. 

As for OP's question, I don't think Gendry will father the new Stark line. Literally every other Stark kid would have to die and Arya would have to pull some Mormont style "their father was a bear bull" for them to be Starks. I don't believe that would be tolerated. Bear Island is one thing, but the Starks are a lot more important as LPs. Only GRRM can say what the attitudes towards that arrangement would be like. Maybe the smallfolk and tiny clans wouldn't care since Arya would be out of their league anyway, but other lords who want to be rewarded for their service to the Starks would be mad that they were passed over for some nobody with no land or resources.

I think Gendry absolutely has more to do for the story, but wish fulfillment fanfic end seems unlikely. (There's nothing wrong with fanfics like that, but you can't use popular fic trope xyz to seriously argue points about where the story is going.) These kids have a lot of responsibilities and there are going to be compromises. If Arya returned and revealed herself as a Stark, but didn't make an effort to be a part of the political alliance and peace talks because she doesn't want to marry or wants to marry someone who wouldn't be beneficial, then that will have consequences. 

“

The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the price in corpses.[3]

”

- Ser Barristan Selmy

 

Of course this is all assuming the current power structures are still in place and that the War for the Dawn isn't completely devastating.

 

tl;dr We're all assuming and interpreting with varying levels of textual support. TWoW can't be out soon enough. 

[Arya-Jon]

I was actually glad when the thread went off topic, but here we are again with ship wars.

I don't have a preference for anybody, but I think that the fact that we saw JonxArya in the letter but other stuff was censored means that it's probably not going to happen. The only specific bits we can read are things that happened in the currently available novels, or things that never come to pass because they were scrapped.

We do not really know when exactly the text was redacted. Was it in 1993  Was it  in Feb  2015? 

It changes things. Because what was spoilery in 1993 is no longer spoilery in 2015. If it was Grrm who redacted the text , why would he even give the letter to anyone when he does not want it to be released.

Grrm never gave these people permission to post it in the internet. They quickly removed it from their site/twitter account. If there was nothing spoilery why was that?

People have worked to get what the redacted text meant . From the little they got, it seemed that portion consisted of major things that would happen in the second book. There was nothing about the endgame or anything.  So it makes sense that the specific redacted portion was hidden way back in 1990's  when they knew what was there in the first book, and wanted to hide the things in the second book.

When we are discussing the endgame of Arya, it is normal that we discuss things like whether she would be queen, when she would die etc. Its normal that Jon would figure in these discussions because he is among the few possible candidates for King and among the few other people Arya has a relationship with (platonic) which has any kind of potential to develop into romantic later on. It is not ship wars. Its simply endgame discussion.

[Winter's Cold]

I was actually glad when the thread went off topic, but here we are again with ship wars.

I don't have a preference for anybody, but I think that the fact that we saw JonxArya in the letter but other stuff was censored means that it's probably not going to happen. The only specific bits we can read are things that happened in the currently available novels, or things that never come to pass because they were scrapped. Sure there is general summary of the end, but I think everyone can come to the conclusion that the climax of the conflict will incorporate all the narrative threads of the story. That's not a spoiler. That's how endings in general should be. Again, not hating on Jon/Arya. I think the concept is cute. 

tl;dr We're all assuming and interpreting with varying levels of textual support. TWoW can't be out soon enough. 

I remember that letter also including non censored content like the secret of Jon's parentage. Since that information was not censored, does that infer that Jon is actually Ned Stark's bastard son?

[Dark Syster]

I remember that letter also including non censored content like the secret of Jon's parentage. Since that information was not censored, does that infer that Jon is actually Ned Stark's bastard son?

It could also refer to Jon's mother. There are red herrings for her throughout the text and it's something that characters have been interested in from the first book. Both Cat and Bobby B bring it up. But as we know, that mention could also refer to his father. "True Parentage" is a vague term.

We do not really know when exactly the text was redacted. Was it in 1993  Was it  in Feb  2015? 

It changes things. Because what was spoilery in 1993 is no longer spoilery in 2015. If it was Grrm who redacted the text , why would he even give the letter to anyone when he does not want it to be released.

Grrm never gave these people permission to post it in the internet. They quickly removed it from their site/twitter account. If there was nothing spoilery why was that?

People have worked to get what the redacted text meant . From the little they got, it seemed that portion consisted of major things that would happen in the second book. There was nothing about the endgame or anything.  So it makes sense that the specific redacted portion was hidden way back in 1990's  when they knew what was there in the first book, and wanted to hide the things in the second book.

When we are discussing the endgame of Arya, it is normal that we discuss things like whether she would be queen, when she would die etc. Its normal that Jon would figure in these discussions because he is among the few possible candidates for King and among the few other people Arya has a relationship with (platonic) which has any kind of potential to develop into romantic later on. It is not ship wars. Its simply endgame discussion.

True. I don't know who actually censored that text. GRRM might still have not wanted it leaked because of what people are trying to do now, decipher the blacked out bit. I went back and read my post, and I think I didn't make myself as clear as I should have. I meant that the situation specifically proposed by the OP where Arya and Gendry become the new Stark line was fanficcy.

I agree that it's worthwhile to discuss different end game scenarios and I also agree that Jon and Arya are very important characters and will have something to do with each other by the end. What that entails, who knows? We can't count on all of the "foreshadowing" from aGoT anymore either because during the royal arrival to Winterfell, Jon remarks that Jaime looks like what a king should look like. Had the plot gone on like the letter said, Jaime would have murdered his way to becoming king. Now it looks like a red herring and/or commentary on how looks influence the feelings people have towards you.

Perhaps the term "ship war" was a bit harsh. It could be a lot worse I know. The discussion so far has been mostly friendly. I just have a hard time with arguments that concentrate on ships being endgame when there is so much more at stake than who ends up with who. That's a personal hangup, I'll admit.

[SilentDystopia]

My humble opinion is NO. Firstly, I've never understood that Gendry+Arya=Love thing, to me they are more like siblings. Secondly, I am quite sure that it will be Sansa who will the matriarch of the future Stark line. My opinion is that Arya will return to Westeros for a time, do something crucial there (maybe killing the last person on her little creepy list?), maybe meet her family (I would really love her to meet with Sansa) and then disappears like a rogue assassin, maybe with Nymeria by her side.

 I love to think of Gendry and Arya (but only as a fanfic :D) I much rather see Sansa help Rickon become a good LP of the north once the Starks are back in Winterfell. (Hopefully ) I don't see arya going back to the norm too much damage done to her. Watched a movie about a child solider in Africa, he wanted a normal life back after everything has happen and he finally was in safety but its just not going to happen. Luckily he had help of therapy to slowly move on. But Arya doesn't have that. Either she dies by biting more than she can chew (but she gets to be with her loved ones *Mom, Dad, Brother*) or she travels and tries to run away from the ghosts of the people she love (she lives, but shes is tormented from her past). Bittersweet! 

[Arya-Jon]

 

 We can't count on all of the "foreshadowing" from aGoT anymore either because during the royal arrival to Winterfell, Jon remarks that Jaime looks like what a king should look like.

We cant count on all the foreshadowing from Game of Thrones . But there certainly is some important foreshadowing in Game of thrones which is key to the the ending in the ADOS.

Have you collaborated at all with George R.R. Martin in the process of adapting the novel to comics? If so, what’s the creative process there?


I’ve spoken to George a lot in the process.  The biggest issues we have are continuity questions.  There are things about this story that only he knows, and they aren’t all obvious.  There was one scene I had to rework because there’s a particular line of dialog – and you wouldn’t know it to look at – that’s important in the last scene of “A Dream of Spring.”- Daniel Abraham

This is Daniel Abraham speaking about the adaptation of the game of thrones comic. The last scene would be basically when the others have been either defeated or driven back to their abode.

Which dialog talks about a future after that occurs? The dialog between Ned and Arya (queen , lord, high septon etc)  is among the few that fit. I dont know of any other dialog which actually talks about a distant future in AGOT  .

 "There was one scene I had to rework " is also a hint that it could be this dialog. Because even the filmmakers changed the word King to Lord in the particuar dialog. Who is to say, that the comic book writer may not have made such changes.

 

[Winter's Cold]

It could also refer to Jon's mother. There are red herrings for her throughout the text and it's something that characters have been interested in from the first book. Both Cat and Bobby B bring it up. But as we know, that mention could also refer to his father. "True Parentage" is a vague term.

 

Nope the term true parentage in the outline clearly refers to the identity of Jon's father. 

“Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon’s true parentage is revealed in the last book.”

If Jon is Ned Stark's son, then Arya is his half sibling no matter who his mother is. On other hand, if Jon is not Ned Stark's son and is the son of some other Stark, then Arya and Jon are cousins instead of siblings.  In Westeros, a relationship between siblings is generally taboo while a relationship between cousins is quite normal. This would explain why the secret of Jon's true parentage would end their torment. 

 

[Winter's Cold]

 I love to think of Gendry and Arya (but only as a fanfic :D) I much rather see Sansa help Rickon become a good LP of the north once the Starks are back in Winterfell. (Hopefully ) I don't see arya going back to the norm too much damage done to her. Watched a movie about a child solider in Africa, he wanted a normal life back after everything has happen and he finally was in safety but its just not going to happen. Luckily he had help of therapy to slowly move on. But Arya doesn't have that. Either she dies by biting more than she can chew (but she gets to be with her loved ones *Mom, Dad, Brother*) or she travels and tries to run away from the ghosts of the people she love (she lives, but shes is tormented from her past). Bittersweet! 

Jon is her loved one actually. So if Jon is alive in the end, I don't see why Arya would willingly choose to be separated from him. Also, all the Stark children have been damaged one way or the other. Ned Stark too was damaged from the war. Damage doesn't always result in someone giving up on life. If that's the case, then all the remaining Starks will die by the end of ADOS.

[Light a wight tonight]

Arya is like 9 years old, so it's a bit premature to say that Jon's her "loved one". Favorite brother, probably, but not loved in a romantic sense.

 

[Arya-Jon]

Arya is like 9 years old, so it's a bit premature to say that Jon's her "loved one". Favorite brother, probably, but not loved in a romantic sense.

 

Arya is 11 not 9 in Adwd. Right now there is nothing romantic or sexual abt their relationship. It is just that they miss each other a lot and just feel happy being around each other; making each other  smile etc and can do almost anything for each other. But there are a lot of textual hints that point to a future romantic relationship.  Think we will get to know whether it will actually happen come winds of winter