Does Anyone Really Believe Stannis Will Burn Shireen?

[All-Seeing Aye]

Stannis will burn Shireen, but it will be as a desperate last act after the Wall has fallen (sort of like Agamemnon and Iphigenia).

[Carey Snow]

As others have said, it does not make a lot of sense at this point that Stannis would be able to order it. He is buried in the snow hundreds of miles away from Shireen who is at the wall. He also just ordered Massey (if I remember correctly) to fight for his daughter's claim to the throne if he should perish. That does not sound like a man who is looking to sacrifice his heir and daughter. 

 

Now Melisandre and Selyse are two different critters from Stannis. Selyse has always disliked her daughter, and Mel has wanted to burn someone with kings blood on the stake from the start. Also, Jon is now at least immobile and unable to intervene with a voice of reason. It makes most sense to me that Mel will want to sacrifice Shireen as kings blood to resurrect Jon Snow, whom she finally comes to see as  Azar Ahai. 

 

This makes for far better storytelling than the show, who had a father sacrifice his daughter because of some snow falling on his army. And then to have that army routed anyway, made it even worse storytelling. Not to mention how Sansa and Theon were supposed to survive that jump with very little snow on the ground. I assume that is not how Martin's books will go. 

[Saving Stannis]

Yeah as I mentioned earlier, maybe this discourse is better suited under the heading of "The Show's Betrayal of Stannis as a Tragic Hero" 

There's inherent redemption for a tragic hero in the eyes of the reader, albeit post-mortem. There's no chance of redemption or even tragic heroism for a man that burns his only child alive. 

[Sullen]

Yeah as I mentioned earlier, maybe this discourse is better suited under the heading of "The Show's Betrayal of Stannis as a Tragic Hero" 

There's inherent redemption for a tragic hero in the eyes of the reader, albeit post-mortem. There's no chance of redemption or even tragic heroism for a man that burns his only child alive. 

The supposed redemption lies in the supposition that he'll believe he is saving the world by making that sacrifice.

As Stannis himself says, an easy sacrifice is no sacrifice.

[Nevets]

I think, sadly, that her story is headed in the direction of her being a sacrifice.  I think one possibility is that she is sacrificed by Melisandre to bring back Jon.  This will likely have a major effect on Jon, and on Stannis, and possibly on their ongoing relationship, not to mention how they both feel toward Mel.  

Another possibility is that Stannis sacrifices her as a last resort in the fight against the Others to save humanity, similar to Agamemnon and Iphigenia, I think.  Or, at least, that is what he will believe.  Whether that is actually the case is another matter. 

In either case, it will be an event that has a major effect on the story, and not a throwaway.

[7-KG]

Like others said, it is very likely that Mel and Selyse burn her.

And if Stannis does burn her it will only be for this -

Took the words of my mouth. (Including the post you quoted).

[SilentDystopia]

I have a question does Shireen have to be burned to bring back Jon Snow? Can't she just give him the kiss of life 

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm admittedly pretty new to the forum, but it seems like the mecca for taking "a series of books" too seriously. 

 More like a Mecca for one-upmanship, fanboy/fangirl posts, mystical asspulls, and Fanfic Lite. In a matrix of some actual discussion of what's in the books. 

[Lord Varys]

Come on, guys, this Mel-sacrifice idea with Stannis away is just nonsense. George would never do that since that would completely botch the whole idea of the father killing his own daughter aspect of it - that is where the true tragedy lies, not with a scenario in which 'the evil priestess' or 'the unsympathetic zealot mother' does it.

Not to mention that show runners say themselves they never came up with that idea and outright claimed that this was George's idea/concept. They presumably only included Shireen retroactively into the show (in season 2 Stannis didn't seem to have any children) to give him a daughter to kill. The whole 'clever Shireen gets along splendidly with her daddy' in the show was part of the buildup for Stannis eventually killing her. We have hints of that in the show as early as season 2. Had the show not rushed Stannis' demise and the death of Shireen this could actually have become as tragic as it is going to become in the books.

You have to wrap your heads around the fact that Shireen is not going to die soon in the books, just as Stannis isn't. If George intended to bring the Stannis story to a quick end he could have done so in ADwD. He did not have to allow him to learn about the Karstark betrayal, after all...

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think that GRRM originally intended to have Stannis burn his own daughter, and told D&D as much in all sincerity during their big post season 2 meeting (which benioff then refers to in the discussed interview).  I believe at one point GRRM meant for Stannis to fall, and fall hard.  It was going to be a huge twist 

Now though?  I'm not sure he'll go through with it.  I think he may have melisandre or Seleyse do it, then have Stannis turn in some other way (as a result of turning darker post Shireen).  Because logistically, it would be difficult at the moment and GRRM has to get this story done.

 

[TimJames]

Personally, I do not take anything the show says or does as having any value whatsoever. They are obviously different things, and will have different endings.

I suspect Stannis will be alive by the end of the series, and I utterly refuse to believe he'll burn his daughter. 

Here's to hoping GRRM's Epic Saga doesn't kill itself in front of us.

[Jaime4Brienne]

Shireen is his only heir and the only (recognized) Baratheon left so I don't see him burning her.

[haemonculus]

I think all it would require for him to reach the point where he "has to, to save the world" is certainty that he would die otherwise. He may not really buy into the whole AA angle of it, but he seems convinced that he actually has the fate of the world in his hands. So if he is, say, completely surrounded and outmatched, with no hope to win or even survive, would it not be his "duty" to send a raven to the wall, that gives Mel his blessing (most simple solution to the logistics problem)?

[GravyFace]

Yes, I think he will.

[Cato.the.Elder]

I think he would burn his daughter if he thinks that will give him power enough to seize the Iron Throne, but also that he is not going to be able to do that. Died or alive, he is going to be far from her, and it's Melissandre who is going to burn her in exchange for bringing back Jon.

How Jon would react about that, I don't know. Depending of if he is still Jon or unJon. 

[Lord Varys]

I think that GRRM originally intended to have Stannis burn his own daughter, and told D&D as much in all sincerity during their big post season 2 meeting (which benioff then refers to in the discussed interview).  I believe at one point GRRM meant for Stannis to fall, and fall hard.  It was going to be a huge twist 

Now though?  I'm not sure he'll go through with it.  I think he may have melisandre or Seleyse do it, then have Stannis turn in some other way (as a result of turning darker post Shireen).  Because logistically, it would be difficult at the moment and GRRM has to get this story done.

 

There is really no intention that George is in a rush to get this story to its end. If this was the case he would not have introduced Aegon now, or made have him a new independent player rather than one of Dany's allies, and he most certainly wouldn't have failed to give us Stannis' doom in ADwD. He had everything in hand of this. He could have allowed Stannis to march against the Dreadfort, he could have had Stannis (and the reader) not learn about the Karstark betrayal in time, and so on.

Instead he did neither. TWoW is not going to turn out to be second last volume of this series. It cannot be.

Which is why there is no reason to drag Shireen in any ritual bringing back Jon Snow to life. Especially since there are much easier ways to do just that (e.g. the kiss of fire).

[Lady Topspin]

I apologize in advance for bringing show-content into the discussion...

 

This past season of the show rose to unfathomable new heights in its ability to bastardize George's sacred story, but no more so in my eyes, than in the depiction of Shireen's sacrifice....more specifically, Stannis's sacrifice of Shireen. Love him or hate him...for all his misgivings, Stannis Baratheon is one of this tale's true tragic heroes. GRRM seems to have gone to great lengths to establish the affectionate dynamic between Stannis and his daughter, in particular, the degree to which Stannis has always endeavored to protect his only child. 

Hidden Content

Westeros's stubborn denial of Stannis's virtue as a true king has admittedly lead him to some desperate decisions. But I simply cannot reconcile 5 books of deliberate character development with the act depicted in the show. Not by Stannis's hand anyway.

The likely scenario seems that it'll be Melisandre who orchestrates the sacrifice in Stannis's absence and without his knowledge, a betrayal which will likely drive him away from her for good, and toward his destiny at the Nightfort....but that's a thread for another time...

 

Please, someone reassure me George won't do my boy Stannis like this...

Stannis is emotionally unbalanced, but he can't burn Shireen.  The show just decided to go its own way.  That's my opinion.  I don't believe George will make him burn Shireen in the books.  Stannis is already dead.  Killed by the Boltons.   Shireen is still alive.  It's Mel whose going to burn Shireen at the wall.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

There is really no intention that George is in a rush to get this story to its end. If this was the case he would not have introduced Aegon now, or made have him a new independent player rather than one of Dany's allies, and he most certainly wouldn't have failed to give us Stannis' doom in ADwD. He had everything in hand of this. He could have allowed Stannis to march against the Dreadfort, he could have had Stannis (and the reader) not learn about the Karstark betrayal in time, and so on.

Instead he did neither. TWoW is not going to turn out to be second last volume of this series. It cannot be.

Which is why there is no reason to drag Shireen in any ritual bringing back Jon Snow to life. Especially since there are much easier ways to do just that (e.g. the kiss of fire).

you may be right.  In that case it's likely I'll never read the rest of the series, so from my perspective it doesn't matter.  I'm not particularly interested in reading the novels years and years after I've already seen (essentially) the ending, and given GRRMs current productivity it will literally be decades before he finishes  two more books, let alone three+.

anyway I think we agree on the essentials - Shireens death leading to Jon getting resurrected would be BS, and The show is basically telling GRRMs original story - at least when it comes to the major beats of the plot.  What I'm less sure on is whether GRRM will A) change his mind - not unlikely considering the plot we see from the pitch letter or B.) whether we will ever see the rest of the story as told by GRRM. 

[joluoto2]

No the show wanted to make Stannis = Agamemnon, which he is not.

[Lord Varys]

you may be right.  In that case it's likely I'll never read the rest of the series, so from my perspective it doesn't matter.  I'm not particularly interested in reading the novels years and years after I've already seen (essentially) the ending, and given GRRMs current productivity it will literally be decades before he finishes  two more books, let alone three+.

anyway I think we agree on the essentials - Shireens death leading to Jon getting resurrected would be BS, and The show is basically telling GRRMs original story - at least when it comes to the major beats of the plot.  What I'm less sure on is whether GRRM will A) change his mind - not unlikely considering the plot we see from the pitch letter or B.) whether we will ever see the rest of the story as told by GRRM. 

I don't think the show will tell 'George's original story' because George never has written an outline of this whole story. He may have given the show runners his view on how the arcs of the major players are going to play out at the time of the conversation, but George is not bound to stick to that - and neither are or were the show runners ever bound to stick to George's vision as they proved countless times by now. They have always told their story, and by now it has virtually nothing to do with the books series.

The very idea that the show could give us 'the true climax/finale' of the entire series doesn't really convince me. Unless there is a detailed summary of pretty much everything that is going to happen including dialogue and stuff, there is no chance that the last seasons of the show will in any meaningful way. After all, the show chose to depart from the books on countless occasions when there was no good reason, so there is really no reason to believe they will stick to 'George in spirit' when they adapting stuff he has not yet written.

I for one won't watch the next season of the show until I've read TWoW  - or perhaps not all, considering how I had force myself through the last season.