Does Anyone Really Believe Stannis Will Burn Shireen?

[Pancakes1800]

Stannis will burn Shireen, no question about it.  Stannis has to be the one that does it.  If Stannis doesn't then his entire arc is entirely pointless and all of his talk about sacrifice is just worthless.  It's out of character for Mel and/or Selyse to burn Shireen without the permission of Stannis.  Nissa Nissa is only brought up in the Stannis/Davos story line which, IMO, means that the Nissa NIssa story pertains to Stannis and Stannis alone.  My guess is that Stannis defeats Roose and takes Winterfell and when Jon is revived then he will take Selyse, Mel, and Shireeen along with wildlings and Stannis supporters to Winterfell.  After the Wall falls Stannis will decide to burn Shireen in Winterfell and just like the show it wont work and Stannis will die.  This makes Stannis look more white than what the show did as it makes the sacrifice easier for Stannis.  However if for some reason Stannis doesn't burn Shireen in the books, then I applaud D&D for making that change and I'll criticize GRRM.

[chrisdaw]

The real question here is will it actually achieve anything. Obviously Stannis isn't going to sacrifice her then gain some awesome power and go save the realm, but will it do anything? Perhaps helping Jon or Dany.

[JonisHenryTudor]

No. But I do believe Mel does it preemptively without Stannis' knowledge. 

[Taenqyrhae]

I think it may play out differently from the show.  I think Stannis will agree to sacrifice Shireen, but when she starts screaming from the heat he stabs her through the heart with Lightbringer to end her suffering, possibly disrupting the sacrifice and making it meaningless - a kind of reverse Nissa Nissa - instead of plunging a regular sword into a loved one to turn it into Lightbringer so the world can be saved, Stannis will plunge a magic sword into a loved one, in doing so preventing himself from saving the world and proving it's NOT Lightbringer.

[bemused]

In the Theon chapter from TWoW,

having arranged a loan from the IB. Stannis sends Massey back with Tycho, ordering him to hire sellswords, and in the case of Stannis' death, to fight on  - to install Shireen on the IT. She is his only heir, and he's adamant about it.

This is totally incompatible with the idea of Stannis burning Shireen. Stannis is a pragmatist. He has no other heir. He appears to have given up on the idea that Selyse could provide him with any more. (My bet would be that he and Selyse have tried now and then - unsuccessfully - because Selyse is so sure that she could give him sons if they were married by R'Hllorist rites... For her, the failure was due to worshiping the wrong gods.)

At the same time, Selyse simply goes through the motions of caring for Shireen (and that, only minimally). She is such a zealot that she may even begin to see Shireen as an obstacle to her wishes. Without Shireen, surely Stannis would have to acquiesce.

The whole power-in-king's-blood idea was established early, and I doubt Selyse (or Mel) would have forgotten about it. Edric slipped through their fingers, and I doubt Mel ever thought that Mance's son would really fit the bill (otherwise, she would have intervened before Jon removed him).. and I think the same would go for Gerrick's daughters. Besides, for Selyse ,if Stannis is not alive and King .. then she will not be Queen.

If either or both Selyse and Mel think sacrificing Shireen would save Stannis they'll do it .. but not Stannis, IMO.

[Monoman32]

There are some things that I would wager money on happening; one of them is Stannis burning Shireen.  Too many people think Stannis is a good guy or hero when he is not, Stannis is King trying to be a hero and he will fail.  Many fans believe that it is out of character for Stannis to burn Shireen, but it isn't as long as it is under the right circumstances.  The chances of Stannis not burning are about 0% and too many fans are looking at the current situation and not what the situation will be in the middle or end of TWOW.  

[Lord Varys]

In the Theon chapter from TWoW,

Hidden Content

This is totally incompatible with the idea of Stannis burning Shireen. Stannis is a pragmatist. He has no other heir. He appears to have given up on the idea that Selyse could provide him with any more. (My bet would be that he and Selyse have tried now and then - unsuccessfully - because Selyse is so sure that she could give him sons if they were married by R'Hllorist rites... For her, the failure was due to worshiping the wrong gods.)

At the same time, Selyse simply goes through the motions of caring for Shireen (and that, only minimally). She is such a zealot that she may even begin to see Shireen as an obstacle to her wishes. Without Shireen, surely Stannis would have to acquiesce.

The whole power-in-king's-blood idea was established early, and I doubt Selyse (or Mel) would have forgotten about it. Edric slipped through their fingers, and I doubt Mel ever thought that Mance's son would really fit the bill (otherwise, she would have intervened before Jon removed him).. and I think the same would go for Gerrick's daughters. Besides, for Selyse ,if Stannis is not alive and King .. then she will not be Queen.

If either or both Selyse and Mel think sacrificing Shireen would save Stannis they'll do it .. but not Stannis, IMO.

Selyse is the only parent of Shireen that actually cares for her and spends time with her. She is a much better parent in the books than Stannis ever was, and there is no indication - no indication at all - that Selyse would ever harm her only child. Especially not while Stannis is still believed to be dead. If they name Shireen the new Queen Regnant Selyse could become Queen Regent and rule in her name, and Ser Axell could finally become 'the Hand of the Queen' in a real sense.

The whole concept of Selyse despising/hating Shireen was an invention by the show and has nothing to do with their relationship in the books. Nor is there any indication that Selyse would ever blame Shireen or her greyscale for her inability of giving Stannis any sons.

We have to keep in mind that both Selyse and Stannis resented Edric Storm for what he was and what he remembered them of. Selyse thought that his conception cursed their marriage. Considering to sacrifice him is different in two ways. First he is just a bastard and therefore not as much worth as a legitimate child of noble birth. And second he was really not well-liked or loved by Stannis and Selyse. Assuming that Selyse or Stannis would consider sacrificing Shireen in the same manner as they considered sacrificing Edric makes little sense.

The idea that Mel actually ever will think Stannis needs her help to be saved/returned from death doesn't make any sense either - Stannis is either not dead or he isn't the reborn Azor Ahai. It is as simple as that. But the very idea that Mel would think Stannis is dead and George not hinting at that in ADwD makes little sense. She is there when Jon reads the Pink Letter, after all.

[BrandonStark's bastard]

Will Shireen be burned? Unfortunately, yes.

Will Stannis be the one to burn Shireen? No, he is miles and miles away.

People need to learn the difference between her being burned by Mel (without Stannis knowing) and her being burned by her own father.

[sarah.jenice]

It definitely won't play out like in the show. I agree with everyone who said Stannis would only do it if it came to Shireen vs everyone else dying/being defeated by the Others. 

[Mladen]

As has been said numerous time, and as once GRRM himself said, in this story people are not nailed in one place and just because Stannis and Shireen are currently separated that doesn't mean they will be in the future.

The idea Stannis will burn Shireen didn't came just from Agamemnon myth although the parallel is noticeable. When I proposed this theory almost two years ago, we have discussed in depth what it boils down. And that is what we know about Stannis. The same "sacrifice is never easy" Stannis. The mere idea that this will be just another day for Stannis is in star contrast of what we have in the books. If it happens, and as someone who proposed this theory a while ago, I believe it will, it will be the moment when Stannis will be pushed to the wall, without any options. We are not talking about "end snow" type of scenario, like they did it in the show, but we are talking about much higher stakes. 

Basically, of it would come to choice between humanity (and let we all remember that Stannis believes he is a hero of the humankind) and his own blood, what would Stannis do? What would anyone do? And how much of tragic guilt will be there? Make no mistake, if it happens, this won't be anything like show. Emotionally investing, it will be RW all over again.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As has been said numerous time, and as once GRRM himself said, in this story people are not nailed in one place and just because Stannis and Shireen are currently separated that doesn't mean they will be in the future.

I think what mostly of us are arguing is that shireen won't be burn in a similar scenario as in the show. In the show, he did it to have good chances for what he's currently doing now in books. So, at the moment, he should have to return to the Wall, burn her and return to the place where he's now in Dance/Winds. This is what D&d  have so fair said: Martin told us.

I agree he might do it for a greater good, but not for what he's doing now. When he was offered to burn people he didn't care about so they can have a better weather he practically told them to go and f themselves.

So, if the question is "do you believe Stannis would burn his daughter so his Winterfell campaign and war against the Boltons can work?", then, no. I can't. Also, that's impossible for him to do even if he wanted to. But, burn her because he actually needs to defeat the Great Other or something similar, I guess he might, or she might end up being used for this purpose.

[Mladen]

 

So, if the question is "do you believe Stannis would burn his daughter so his Winterfell campaign and war against the Boltons can work?", then, no. I can't. Also, that's impossible for him to do even if he wanted to. But, burn her because he actually needs to defeat the Great Other or something similar, I guess he might, or she might end up being used for this purpose.

Exactly. And that is why I find the show atrocious. Because these small things, like character's motives to do something, actually do count.

[Monoman32]

Exactly. And that is why I find the show atrocious. Because these small things, like character's motives to do something, actually do count.

If the Others break the Wall and this triggers Stannis to burn Shireen(which I think will happen) then the whole "sacrifice is never easy or it is no true sacrifice" thing is kinda crap.  Shireen is dead regardless of what Stannis does, either the Others kill her or Stannis burns her so Stannis just might as well burn her.  Obviously burning your child alive is horrendous and tough, but in this situation it's not as tough of a decision and it's almost justified to an extent.  

[Mladen]

If the Others break the Wall and this triggers Stannis to burn Shireen(which I think will happen) then the whole "sacrifice is never easy or it is no true sacrifice" thing is kinda crap.  Shireen is dead regardless of what Stannis does, either the Others kill her or Stannis burns her so Stannis just might as well burn her.  Obviously burning your child alive is horrendous and tough, but in this situation it's not as tough of a decision and it's almost justified to an extent.  

Well, I sincerely doubt that I will have that choice given the lack of ice zombies around here.  So, I can only guess what a horrible choice that may be.

But, it is not. If the reader sees Stannis as objectively wrong and unjustified in his belief that he is the hero, then most people would actually take the stance "how could he do that?" I mean, even without that, burning your child is as extreme as you can get. There is nothing more extreme anyone can do. 

[Abdallah]

No in the books Stannis will take the second way to winterfell and might die anyways. See there are many roads one can take. In the books stannis keeps his morals (well somewhat anyways) and forbids additional human sacrifices. In the show he fully embraces Rhollar. people keep saying if Robb married the frey girl and kept lord karstark hostage that he'd win, even though he might still have lost. If stannis in both the show and book refuses to sacrifice anyone we would have the robb scenario. now we'll see both ways he can go. 

[Monoman32]

Well, I sincerely doubt that I will have that choice given the lack of ice zombies around here.  So, I can only guess what a horrible choice that may be.

But, it is not. If the reader sees Stannis as objectively wrong and unjustified in his belief that he is the hero, then most people would actually take the stance "how could he do that?" I mean, even without that, burning your child is as extreme as you can get. There is nothing more extreme anyone can do. 

Some fans will say "How could Stannis do it?" and others will respond "Shireen is dead regardless so you might as well".  There could be a justification for the burning which is either good or bad depending on how much you like Stannis as a character.  I don't necessarily agree with D&D decision to burn Shireen when they did and cut Stannis' story line short, but I think I understand why they did it.  

[7-KG]

That's a tad exaggerated, no? GRRM hasn't even written Stannis and Shireen interacting. And Stannis protecting his daughter, and naming her heir, isn't an indication of a particularly affectionate relationship. Neither of those things is out of the ordinary for a lord. Plus, Shireen is only heir until Stannis has a son - that's out of the man's own mouth. He even made Renly heir, over Shireen.

GRRM never wrote Rhaegar and Lyanna interacting, he never wrote a interaction between Brandon and Ned, nor he wrote a interaction between Jorah and Lynesse Hightower. It doesn't mean anything that it isn't shown on paper.

TWOW spoilers:

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

Ser Justin put one hand on his sword hilt. "On my honor as a knight, you have my word."

He is ready to face one the biggest battles in his entire life, and he is thinking on the fate of his daughter,  in the case he loses the battle. I can't see what is not affection here.

You know where Stannis is affectionate towards Shireen, though? In the show you all so detest.

Yeah, five minutes before burning her for political gain.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I liked Stannis' interactions with Shireen in the show. But they didn't exist to develop them both as character but for mere manipulation. By this, what the show was saying was "look how this man burned the child we totally told you he actually loved". Awful. That's not development. In the books, Stannis is a harsh man. I don't see him being the kind of father that, for example, Ned or Oberyn are. He cares for his child and wife but he's not a loving type.

Nevertheless, he does favour Shireen. First, he's providing a good education for her, because he knows she will be his heir and will need that education. Compare that with how Tywin was so keen on making Cersei Queen but he never actually made sure she had tutors or maesters to teach her how to rule and how to take decisions, something we've already figured out she really needed.

Secondly, ever wondered why Stannis allows Patchface to be around Shireen? Patchface was a gift from his parents for him. They wanted him to make him smile, and now he allows him to try to make her smile. It's not plainly stated in books but it's there. This says much more about him and how he cares for his child than all the interactions showStannis had with Shireen.

[Lord Varys]

I liked Stannis' interactions with Shireen in the show. But they didn't exist to develop them both as character but for mere manipulation. By this, what the show was saying was "look how this man burned the child we totally told you he actually loved". Awful. That's not development. In the books, Stannis is a harsh man. I don't see him being the kind of father that, for example, Ned or Oberyn are. He cares for his child and wife but he's not a loving type.

Nevertheless, he does favour Shireen. First, he's providing a good education for her, because he knows she will be his heir and will need that education. Compare that with how Tywin was so keen on making Cersei Queen but he never actually made sure she had tutors or maesters to teach her how to rule and how to take decisions, something we've already figured out she really needed.

Secondly, ever wondered why Stannis allows Patchface to be around Shireen? Patchface was a gift from his parents for him. They wanted him to make him smile, and now he allows him to try to make her smile. It's not plainly stated in books but it's there. This says much more about him and how he cares for his child than all the interactions showStannis had with Shireen.

Cersei most certainly had the same sort of education, possibly even on a much higher level due to Lannister wealth, as Shireen got on Dragonstone.

But Stannis does not groom her for the crown. She is never part of his (war) councils nor at his side so that he can personally train her how to command. Egg serves as a page at court and in the Small Council at the tender age of nine, and Rhaenyra hung out with her father on a regular basis even at a much earlier age.

Stannis is treating Shireen the way you treat a highborn girl. She gets good education and stuff, but she is not part of anything that is actually important. Should Shireen ever become Queen Regnant and rule in her own right - very unlikely - she will fail miserably.

I'm not sure what Patchface means, but Patches does not necessarily have any sort of good relationship to Stannis. It was Cressen and the castellan of Storm's End who decided to keep Patches, and how it came to be that the guy went with Stannis and Selyse to Dragonstone and stayed there isn't clear. Nor is it clear that Stannis cares whether he is Shireen's companion or not. If he does he apparently does not disapprove of that (else Patches would no longer be with Shireen) but it is just as likely that he simply does not care.

It may be that Stannis knows about Steffon's letter and what Patchface was supposed to help him with but the boy/man he became would have felt insulted by his father's presumptuous notion that he needed 'help to learn how to laugh'. Not to mention that Patchface's eventual state of mind would have felt like another bad joke in the wake of Steffon and Cassana's death. I'd be very surprised if Stannis ever interacted with Patchface all that much, especially not in the months and years directly after the death of his parents.

You have to keep in mind that Stannis sat on the Small Council throughout the entirety of Shireen's life until he decided to return to Dragonstone permanently in the beginning of AGoT. There is no hint that Stannis often visited Dragonstone to spend time with his wife and daughter, nor is there any hint that Stannis ever called Selyse or Shireen to KL to spend some time at court so that Shireen could bond with her royal cousins.

In that light the very idea that Stannis and Shireen are close to each other in any meaningful sense makes no sense. They most likely never had a meaningful conversation in their entire lives.

Stannis considering Shireen his heir and successor doesn't mean much. While Renly was still alive he was willing to name him his heir instead of her, and since Renly's death Stannis simply doesn't have an heir aside from Shireen. It is really as simple as that.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Nevertheless, he does favour Shireen. First, he's providing a good education for her, because he knows she will be his heir and will need that education. Compare that with how Tywin was so keen on making Cersei Queen but he never actually made sure she had tutors or maesters to teach her how to rule and how to take decisions, something we've already figured out she really needed.

 

That seems quite the leap. We know from Tyrion that there was multiple Maesters at the Rock.

There the boy was less adroit, but Haldon was a patient teacher, and Tyrion was able to make himself of use as well. He had learned the mysteries of squares and circles and triangles from his father's maesters at Casterly Rock, and they came back more quickly than he would have thought.

Cersei left Tywin's parentage 15 years ago and for 14 of those years she has been an OK Queen (cuckolding aside). I'm not sure why he is constantly blamed for the decision making of his adult children.