Richard Writhen Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 It seems like the left column is more standard fantasy than dark fantasy.That's exactly the point. Dark fantasy behaves almost completely like standard fantasy, but is ominous or dark in tone. Grimdark does not behave in the same manner. Too much trope subversion, too much humour, too much violence. It is a sub-genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Martin did several things. First he adopted a writing style that is pretty much god's in miniature. Thus he was able to portray moral ambiguity to an extent where it's almost like IRL, human behaviour dependent on context. I like to call the concept "situational morality". BY adopting it into speculative fiction, he actually generated the subgenre of Grimdark. Dark fantasy has always been around, but the characters were not portrayed as convincingly "grey" in Gilgamesh or Beowulf or whatever back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 First he adopted a writing style that is pretty much god's in miniature.Say what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 I think that if a writer sits down with the intention of writing something "grimdark" then he or she is making a mistake, and the end product will probably come out full of cliche's and rehashed tropes. However once an author writes something he might look over what he's written and realize, yes it is grimdark. Primarily I think it's something that's inferred by the reader though.I agree with the notion that it's more of a tone than a subgenre.That doesn't even make a little bit of sense.I think this is wrong. If a writer sits down to write a dark and gritty fantasy story then he's just doing proper planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjornbert Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Dark fantasy GrimdarkStandard heroes Flawed / Morally ambiguous heroesStandard villains Lighter / Morally ambiguous villainsLittle humour An ass-load of black and gallows humourSome optimism A profound lack of hope, optimism, solutionSome deaths Slasher-film-esque body-droppingLess graphic More graphic / visceralThis is silly. You're basically putting the things you enjoy in grimdark and calling it a day. I'm curious what books would you consider grimdark in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 GRRM didn't generate the grimdark subgenre. He just made it popular. Everything you just mentioned that he did Robin Hobb did the year before, and she wasn't the first either.Also, that Glen Cook guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Also, that Tolkien guy. Also that Howard guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 OK, I think Tolkien is a lot more dark and complex than certain Moorcocks give it credit for, but I sure as hell would not call it grimdark or dark fantasy. Howard...eh..it depends on the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 OK, I think Tolkien is a lot more dark and complex than certain Moorcocks give it credit for, but I sure as hell would not call it grimdark or dark fantasy. Howard...eh..it depends on the story.LotR no, but the Silmarillion? I'd say for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Yeah its uh, Limited Third Person POV I think it's called?Hah, The Bible IS grimdark, that's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelRFletcher Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Yeah I'm pretty sure the article was firmly tongue-in-cheek.I'd have to agree, what with the talk of dead hookers and quoting Mark Lawrence as saying "aardvark" (which he really did say) and all. He didn't seem to be taking himself too seriously.I don't think the sub-genre is a joke, I was just personally surprised to discover that's what I'd written. I was curious what other writers thought and polled the few who I had some quick and easy access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 LotR no, but the Silmarillion? I'd say for sure. Just like The Hobbit is a children's book but is, definitely, one of the greatest children's books of all time and why I couldn't get behind the attempts to "darken it up" for the movies. I would agree that you could do grimdark Tolkien, though, with some of the Silmarillon stories being something you could do. I mentioned The Shadow of Mordor being a great video game with intensely dark atmosphere that didn't change anything about Tolkien but simply built on a lot of what he alluded to (Gondorian racism, Sauron's genocide/enslavement of the East, Feanor's bloodline's arrogance, and so on) which gets overlooked by causal fans.Still, I do think a lot of people treat High Fantasy as a dirty word when it most certainly is not. Star Wars is High Fantasy. LOTOR. Dragon Age: Inquisition is even if Origins is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 Yeah its uh, Limited Third Person POV I think it's called?Hah, The Bible IS grimdark, that's good.History is full of sex, violence, and people being complete ass****s to a level Martin can only vaguely hint at. One element I enjoyed about The Tudors is HBO wanted a sexy program about a decadent monarch and kept running into the horrific murders and wholesale atrocities which were part and parcel of Henry's court.Or, as I explained, "The history part of the Old Testament can basically be summarized as Badass Warrior Race offends god with sex and worshiping other gods. They make atonement by slaughtering people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 But not all dark and gritty stories are grimdark per se. I think that an authentic story will dictate the tone in a better way than the author deliberately steering his or her story in such a way to produce something that they would call "grimdark."I think that the tone of a story should be the natural result of the plot combined with the author's voice, not something manufactured to appeal to a specific subgenre of fantasy.But as I've said, my definition of grimdark doesn't always mesh with the popular one.There's two kinds of writers, Gardeners and Architects. Gardeners just throw things at the wall and see what sticks while Architect plan everything around. The latter are people who can and do benefit from carefully knowing what they want, how they want to do it, and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjornbert Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 In terms of plot and character development, yes, but tone is something that occurs naturally. The tone is informed by the plot, so often times sitting down to write a dark plot will create a grimdark tone, but it's not the same thing as deliberately writing a grimdark story.This seems like a small distinction, but I think it's an important one.Also as an aside, I've never really bought GRRM's "architect vs gardener" thing. I think most writers fall somewhere on a spectrum, rather than being classified in one of the two categories.Except Mark Lawrence. IIRC he's the most gardener of gardeners. Lord Gardener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Also, that Glen Cook guy.Not to mention that Stephen Donaldson guy. A rapist leper protagonist who complains all the time? And let's not even start on The Gap.(The idea that Martin is writing God In Miniature is simply hilarious. Martin writes rotating third person limited - which, as the name suggests, is limited by the perceptions of the given POV character. If you want old-school omniscient (actually quite hard to pull off), see Tolkien). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Oh damn, yeah The Silmarillion is pretty damn grimdark. Brain fart.Also, Pretty much any Katherine Kurtz, uh, shoot, Derny...Derni?? past book 3 goes dark as fuck. The fourth triloogy in particular is just depressing. Everyone fails and dies and evil wins. The end.And while I'm ranting, what the hell is God in miniature mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ps is Beyond Redemption good? I've been sniffing around it for a while but not taken the plunge yet. Also: it's not a Western, right? Coz the cover certainly brings that to mind but the plot doesn't sound like it at all.Beyond Redemption is beyond good; it's one of the best novels released in 2015. And its "magic" system is unreal. It's not a Western at all; it's pseudo-medieval in setting (swords, axes, spears, arrows for weaponry; horses and litters for traveling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I like how the actual author of Beyond Redemption just posted in here and no one seemed to notice.And as per my own rule, I now must read Beyond Redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I like how the actual author of Beyond Redemption just posted in here and no one seemed to notice.And as per my own rule, I now must read Beyond Redemption.Oh, I noticed. I also noticed his answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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