Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ROFL.Anyway, IMHO Grimdark is the dumbest subgenre name ever, I hope it dies a quick death.I think steampunk and dieselpunk are way dumber names, and magical realism makes less sense than any subgenre name. Even gothic fiction, weird western, urban fantasy, new weird. gaslamp fantasy, paranormal romance, and sword and sorcery sound pretty dumb to me when looked at critically. If you get right down to it, fantasy is a stupid name for a genre too; all fiction is imagined and hence fantasy.And unfortunately for your wishing, there are no real signs of a pending death for grimdark as a genre name. If anything, the attacks on it make its proponents more resistant to changing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Anythingpunk is as annoying as scandalgate in news reporting, especially when referring to a subgenre that isn't 'punky' in the slightest (steampunk, looking at you), so at least grimdark doesn't do that, but it is a particularly silly name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Anythingpunk is as annoying as scandalgate in news reporting, so at least grimdark doesn't do that, but it is a particularly silly name.I should have mentioned splatterpunk as well. But why is grimdark particularly silly, other than that people associate it with its earlier Warhammer origins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, that's the thing; the whole original use of the phrase came from the fact that putting 'grim' and 'dark' together seems like it's trying too hard to be edgy and cool. That's what people noticed it for. Yeah, now it's being used (mostly) with more awareness and humour and all that but it still sounds silly.It sounds like a bad 90s superhero comic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, that's the thing; the whole original use of the phrase came from the fact that putting 'grim' and 'dark' together seems like it's trying too hard to be edgy and cool. That's what people noticed it for. Yeah, now it's being used (mostly) with more awareness and humour and all that but it still sounds silly.It sounds like a bad 90s superhero comic.Well, it doesn't sound silly to me; it sounds emphatically descriptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I like the term "science porn" to describe super hard scifi, like The Martian and Gravity.As far as I know I made it up...You didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I like the term "science porn" to describe super hard scifi, like The Martian and Gravity.As far as I know I made it up...Gravity has such a poor grasp of absolutely everything about orbital mechanics (ie, the thing its entire premise is based on) that I refuse to allow it anywhere near Hard SF, let alone science porn. Plus, of course, All is Lost is a much better movie about isolation after a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Getting back on topic: I recently (last month or so) finished When the Heavens Fall by Marc Turner and found it a pretty good read. It's epic dark fantasy, which also makes it grimdark by C.T. Phipps' current definition. In any case, it's a recommended read and the beginning of a new series, with a great background mythology (there is a pantheon of Malazan-like gods). Along the same lines, I finished at about the same time R.S. Belcher's Nightwise, also the first book of a new series, and it's grimdark urban fantasy (even by my better definition of grimdark ). I don't know what other people mean by gritty fantasy, but this very much fits my usage of the term. There's a lot of magic use and some over-the-top characters, and the protagonist is a genuine sociopath (a prick even) who has no problem killing innocent people to accomplish his goals. All in all, an entertaining novel for lovers of either grimdark or urban fantasy, but not for those looking for a pleasant protagonist they can identify with (unless they are a sociopath too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Getting back on topic: I recently (last month or so) finished When the Heavens Fall by Marc Turner and found it a pretty good read. It's epic dark fantasy, which also makes it grimdark by C.T. Phipps' current definition. In any case, it's a recommended read and the beginning of a new series, with a great background mythology (there is a pantheon of Malazan-like gods).I wouldn't call it either dark fantasy or grimdark (although I'm not really sure what dark fantasy is since it's a term I last encountered a few years ago when Waterstones used it to essentially as an alternative to paranormal romance and other than that I haven't really encountered it outside of this topic, where it seems to be being used to label anything a given user doesn't quite accept as grimdark, but is clearly a bit gritty).Quite good though. It is overall very, very Malazan, albeit a smaller-scale story to begin with and not quite at Malazan's level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I wouldn't call it either dark fantasy or grimdark (although I'm not really sure what dark fantasy is since it's a term I last encountered a few years ago when Waterstones used it to essentially as an alternative to paranormal romance and other than that I haven't really encountered it outside of this topic, where it seems to be being used to label anything a given user doesn't quite accept as grimdark, but is clearly a bit gritty). It's got genocide, rather horrifying, relentless undead (kill someone, and they immediately come back in undead form to try to kill you), and some pretty gruesome deaths and villains (including demons), along with very dark magic and a really evil wizard. And three out of the four protagonists are anti-heroes (or morally ambiguous, or gray, or whatever else you want to call them); the other one is haunted/possessed by spirits. A main side character is an assassin. I would say this is enough to qualify as dark fantasy, and maybe grimdark by a loose definition. And FWIW, Amazon classifies it as dark fantasy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Duplicate post deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Get out of my brain, I was just thinking about reading When the Heavens Fall.Also finally found a copy of The Fifth Season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I wouldn't call it either dark fantasy or grimdark (although I'm not really sure what dark fantasy is since it's a term I last encountered a few years ago when Waterstones used it to essentially as an alternative to paranormal romance and other than that I haven't really encountered it outside of this topic, where it seems to be being used to label anything a given user doesn't quite accept as grimdark, but is clearly a bit gritty). What ? I was always under the impression that 'dark fantasy' was fantasy + horror as described by Grant,Wagner,Stableford et al.Has this definition changed recently ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 There are no definitions. Nothing is real. Everything is fake. DOWN IS UP. HOT IS COLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Anythingpunk is as annoying as scandalgate in news reporting, especially when referring to a subgenre that isn't 'punky' in the slightest (steampunk, looking at you), so at least grimdark doesn't do that, but it is a particularly silly name.To be fair, steampunk can actually be steam-punkish as the Victorian Era is an awesome time to do stories about classicism, racism, Imperialism, sexism, and otherwise the fact the vast-vast majority of the people in the world aren't rich white British guys. It's the perfect time, also, for Gibsonian tales about how technology has started to **** all the non-rich white guys of the world. That is, admittedly, NOT what most steampunk is about.Abney Park does some actual stuff in that vein, though.Amusingly, so would a post-colonial interpretation of Captain Nemo.Well, that's the thing; the whole original use of the phrase came from the fact that putting 'grim' and 'dark' together seems like it's trying too hard to be edgy and cool. That's what people noticed it for. Yeah, now it's being used (mostly) with more awareness and humour and all that but it still sounds silly.It sounds like a bad 90s superhero comic.Yes. Because God forbid we have some humor about a genre we like?What ? I was always under the impression that 'dark fantasy' was fantasy + horror as described by Grant,Wagner,Stableford et al.Has this definition changed recently ?The use of Dark Fantasy to describe Urban Fantasy which is not related to romance. The thing is that there's a lot of crossover between these two genres despite how much so many (mostly male) fans seem to hate that. I recall before it turned into porn, I was actually quite a big fan of the Anita Blake books which identified themselves as an R-rated Buffy in the description. A lot of people were at a loss to describe vampires, demons, ghouls, and so on in a modern context but not horror.Frankly, I don't think many people use Dark Fantasy to refer to Urban Fantasy of a Gothic vein but I've encountered it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I think dark fantasy is usually considered to be fantasy with elements of horror. On the other hand, grimdark is being (and has been) used not just to describe a type of fantasy story; after all, its original use was with science fiction stories. When applied specifically to fantasy, a story can be both a grimdark and a dark fantasy story, or belong to just one of these categories.Also, C.T. Phipps has declared that in his view, dark fantasy and grimdark are identical (a point of view I strongly disagree with). Since this is his thread and he made up the rules for the topic, we are "supposed" to be discussing/showing appreciation for dark fantasy = grimdark. C.T. Phipps: As you can see from the above, several pages ago I mentioned the definition AncalagonThe Black is referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 C.T. Phipps: Though there are some people who aberrantly use the term "dark fantasy" in place of urban fantasy that isn't paranormal romance, as you yourself point out, this is fairly unusual. In any case AncalagonThe Black referred to Brian Stableford, and he most definitely did not use the term "dark fantasy" to refer to urban fantasy without romance. He defined it as "fantasy that incorporates an element of horror, in particular, those set wholly or partially in secondary worlds." In The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, John Clute and John Grant define "dark fantasy" as "a tale which incorporates a sense of horror, but which is clearly fantasy rather than supernatural." More recently, it has come to mean fantasy with added elements of horror that instill an atmosphere of dread or fear, which is the definition I use. As I've said before, virtually all genre names are as volatile and subject to different definitions as grimdark gets accused of, yet it is grimdark that keeps getting singled out as not being a proper genre because people can't agree on a common definition for it. They don't seem to notice this is equally true for most other genres as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 There are no definitions. Nothing is real. Everything is fake. DOWN IS UP. HOT IS COLD.There are no definitions that are absolute. Nothing is very real.Also, what is real to us is what we interpret from what we perceive and conceive, which is not necessarily what is; hence, everything is in some sense fake (what we are aware of is in essence a representation). Down is up if you look at the Earth simultaneously from both the perspective of someone in the northern hemisphere and someone in the southern hemisphere.If you put your hand into a bowl of intensely hot water, and at the same time I put my hand into a bowl of near freezing water, and then we both immediately and simultaneously put our hands into a bowl of water that is at room temperature, it will be cold to you and hot to me. Similarly someone who has spent his life in the tropics would find New York City in the spring to be cold, whereas someone who has spent his life living outdoors in Antarctica would find it hot. Thus hot is cold. Most people trying to hold a piece of dry ice would also probably say it is hot and it is cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 If you like historical fantasy, then there is an excellent grimdark series I can recommend reading:Snorri Kristjansson's Valhalla Saga: Swords of Good Men; Blood Will Follow; and (coming later this month) Path of Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Well you took all the fun out of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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