The Grimdark Appreciation thread III

[The Marquis de Leech]

In reference to the purpose of genre definitions, I wrote the following a whole back. It doesn't refer to grimdark as such, but I think the basic idea of it being a marker to potential readers applies:

The desire to classify stuff is an integral part of the human mind. Perhaps it’s a convenient way of speeding along the thought process (is it type X? Then do Y, or think Z about it). Perhaps it’s simply that our monkey brains are obsessed with trying to find predictable patterns in a hostile world. Either way, there are few areas where the drive to slice up and divide is more apparent than in the field of literature, where we not only have the basic division between fiction (it’s made up) and non-fiction (it’s factual), but also an endless myriad of sub-divisions. Non-fiction is comparatively straight-forward in its division by subject matter, hence the existence of the Dewey Decimal System, but Fiction gets much much messier the closer you look, and pretty soon you’re falling down the rabbit hole known as genre classification.

There is an argument that literary genre is purely a marketing mechanism. People often like specific types of story (or have convinced themselves to like a specific type of story), and certain labels have particular associations, good and bad. Anyone labelling their story as romance, or horror, will be orientating themselves  to a particular type of reader – normally one whose tastes are very set – at the expense of others. Publishers and authors can then play with that, depending on what niche readership they’re after (don’t like the label horror? Let’s call it dark fantasy or paranormal romance or a techno-dystopian thriller instead).

This argument does have a lot going for it. Calling the likes of Harry Potter YA Fantasy could certainly only ever be a marketing ploy, since it focusses more on the intended audience (in this case Young Adults) than on the actual content of the book. Call me a bit weird though, but I like my genre classifications to be, first and foremost, descriptive. You’re always going to have the odd-ball cases and certain works falling through the gaps (pot, kettle, black, I suppose), but at least the potential reader has a figurative map of what lies ahead, rather than depending on the dubious notion that all Young Adults have similar tastes.

This is all very well, you say, but how would you go about describing these divisions in practice? I prefer to describe things in terms of the possible. The rough dividing line (in my own brain) between Science-Fiction and Fantasy is that the former at least pretends to be scientifically plausible, while the latter cheerfully ignores conventional cosmic laws altogether. I’ll admit it can be a pretty grey and fuzzy divide at times – Roger Zelazny’s Lord of Light and E.R. Burroughs’ John Carter of Mars are technically Science-Fiction under this definition, but both function perfectly well as Fantasy. And while I said I like descriptive labels, I acknowledge that at some point the distinction becomes rather arbitrary. Does it really matter whether Zelazny’s demons are beings of physical energy or more classical mythological demons? No-one’s reading experience is going to be negatively impacted either way. That’s also why I’m also quite fond of the new umbrella term doing the rounds these days – Speculative Fiction. That way you can put out a front-window marker to potential readers saying “Here Be Weird Stuff” without necessarily having to go into multi-sentence detail or hair-splitting.

The one exception to all the above? The one attempted genre-label I really dislike being thrown at books? Literary Fiction. If we use it (as is generally the case) to refer to works of literary merit, then by definition it cannot be a genre in its own right, any more than really really bad works are a genre in their own right. If a book is good enough to be truly literary (in itself an age old debate of subjective reasoning and attempted imposition of objective standards), then there is no reason it can’t come from within those evil genres also. Alternatively, if Literary Fiction is really shorthand for character-driven or experimentalist modernist and post-modernist works (with a whole bunch of older works like Shakespeare and Dickens retrospectively shoe-horned into the canon), then it feels a tad arrogant to essentially proclaim one’s own genre inherently superior before even considering the respective merits of the actual works. Not least because Shakespeare and Dickens both wrote their share of Speculative Fiction themselves (the ghost of Hamlet’s father? The ghost of Jacob Marley?).

Ultimately though, I think genre classification is of much more interest to readers (and marketers) than it is to the writers themselves. Writers are also readers, so naturally develop an attachment to particular conventions, but I (for one) prefer to just follow the characters and see what happens. If it means you end up crossing boundaries, so be it. It’s the story that matters, above all else.

[C.T. Phipps]

Genre is like D&D's alignment.

It's useful shorthand but becomes thoroughly useless when dealing with specifics.

[polishgenius]

 

Yes. Because God forbid we have some humor about a genre we like?

I'll be honest: it'd be nice if y'all did.

 

 More recently, it has come to mean fantasy with added elements of horror that instill an atmosphere of dread or fear, which is the definition I use.

See, this is kind of what I was thinking and why I didn't think the aforementioned When the Heavens Fall qualified. Yeah, sure, bad shit happens and there's undead in it, but the feeling it seems to be going for is 'EPIC DANGER' rather than 'brrr. creepy'.
But, like grimdark, it's a label that seems to depend a lot on tone and unquantifiables rather than specific elements so who knows really.

[Puntificator]

 

See, this is kind of what I was thinking and why I didn't think the aforementioned When the Heavens Fall qualified. Yeah, sure, bad shit happens and there's undead in it, but the feeling it seems to be going for is 'EPIC DANGER' rather than 'brrr. creepy'.
But, like grimdark, it's a label that seems to depend a lot on tone and unquantifiables rather than specific elements so who knows really.

That's a valid point, and is one of the problems with genre definitions that involve invoking a certain emotion, like horror. Different people can react very differently to the same stimulus. With regard to When the Heavens Fall, my sense of creepy horror rather than just "epic danger" came from passages like the following:

"To the woman's left, a white-robed man took a mace full in the face. His skull crumpled with a wet, crunching sound, gray matter spurting between cracked bone. Somehow, though, he manged to stay on his feet, and he continued groping toward the warrior-priests, his fingers hooked into claws."
"After a handful of paces she drew level with the blood-soaked wooden stakes and their grisly trophies. The face of the head closest to her—a man with a thick, black beard—was turned in her direction, and she saw maggots crawling in his empty eye sockets."
"The hordes came howling over him, their forms blurring together into a ghostly wall. Hands tore at him, each touch sending a stab of ice through his body. He had to fight back, but when he lashed out at his attackers he made contact only with air. Amid the murk he saw fragments of faces, hollow eyes, gaping mouths."
"A spear had been driven though his right eye, pinning his skull to the ground."
"...the body of a Kinevar male hung from a tree. A branch was wrapped round his neck. Another had burst through his torso below the heart, and shattered ribs jutted from the wound. Yet still the man fought to free himself, fingers tearing at the bough that throttled him, his body twisted round as his legs kicked out."
"As she turned away, her gaze settled on a young Kinevar female hanging from a tree. The girl held a bonewood knife that she was using to saw at the branch round her throat. In doing so she drove the tip of the dagger over and over into the flesh under her chin, and the bone of her jaw was now visible through shredded skin. Her expression was blank, but there was a weight of sorrow behind her eyes. As her gaze met Parolla's she whimpered. It was, Parolla realized, the first sound she had heard any of the undead make."
"Even as the thought came to her, the Kerrelai raised its head to stare at her with its huge red eyes. Its muzzle and fangs were smeared with gore."

[Puntificator]

Genre is like D&D's alignment.

It's useful shorthand but becomes thoroughly useless when dealing with specifics.

Not to me. When I look to buy a specific fiction book, its genre is one of the most (probably even THE most) important considerations. I look at genre before anything else. If it's not fantasy (or fantasy-related), I am unlikely to be interested. And if it is fantasy, but is marketed as YA or paranormal romance, I am extremely unlikely to have any further interest in it. I have a strong (though not exclusive) preference for the darker forms of fantasy (grimdark, dark fantasy), for urban fantasy, and for satirical fantasy. Genre is very useful to me when looking for specific recommendations, etc.

[Richard Writhen]

I'd have to agree, what with the talk of dead hookers and quoting Mark Lawrence as saying "aardvark" (which he really did say) and all. He didn't seem to be taking himself too seriously.

I don't think the sub-genre is a joke, I was just personally surprised to discover that's what I'd written. I was curious what other writers thought and polled the few who I had some quick and easy access to.

 

Hey Mike, welcome to the boards. I write what I write too, and classify it afterwards in regards to genre.

 

And what good interview doesn't have talk of dead hookers and ML saying "aardvark"?

[C.T. Phipps]

Not to me. When I look to buy a specific fiction book, its genre is one of the most (probably even THE most) important considerations. I look at genre before anything else. If it's not fantasy (or fantasy-related), I am unlikely to be interested. And if it is fantasy, but is marketed as YA or paranormal romance, I am extremely unlikely to have any further interest in it. I have a strong (though not exclusive) preference for the darker forms of fantasy (grimdark, dark fantasy), for urban fantasy, and for satirical fantasy. Genre is very useful to me when looking for specific recommendations, etc.

"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

— Alan Moore

 

[Darth Richard II]

Not to me. When I look to buy a specific fiction book, its genre is one of the most (probably even THE most) important considerations. I look at genre before anything else. If it's not fantasy (or fantasy-related), I am unlikely to be interested. And if it is fantasy, but is marketed as YA or paranormal romance, I am extremely unlikely to have any further interest in it. I have a strong (though not exclusive) preference for the darker forms of fantasy (grimdark, dark fantasy), for urban fantasy, and for satirical fantasy. Genre is very useful to me when looking for specific recommendations, etc.

You're missing out on a lot of good books then.

[polishgenius]

Not to me. When I look to buy a specific fiction book, its genre is one of the most (probably even THE most) important considerations. I look at genre before anything else. If it's not fantasy (or fantasy-related), I am unlikely to be interested. And if it is fantasy, but is marketed as YA or paranormal romance, I am extremely unlikely to have any further interest in it. I have a strong (though not exclusive) preference for the darker forms of fantasy (grimdark, dark fantasy), for urban fantasy, and for satirical fantasy. Genre is very useful to me when looking for specific recommendations, etc.

I could be wrong (correct me if I am, Monsieur Phipps), but I think his point is that many if not most books are difficult to fit completely into one genre. Take His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman for an immediate example that sprung to mind off your post- they're definitely YA*, but also check many of the boxes of grimdark or at least regular dark and also have elements of UF, steampunk, and other things.

*Mind you, YA isn't a genre really, but we often treat it as if it were, so...

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah, but HDM sucks.

[Richard Writhen]

Yeah, but HDM sucks.

I liked the first two, but I had to stop reading TAS because it was so lame. Gayngels, little creatures that ride motorcycles ...

 

I may try to pick it up again someday, but IDK.

[C.T. Phipps]

Yeah, but HDM sucks.

That it does but the irony is I'm actually agreeing with an earlier post which disagreed with me. When you write a story, you may include many elements beyond genre. Star Wars is a science-fiction fantasy Space Western which includes elements of samurai films. Bladerunner is a science-fiction Noir Detective story.

And so on and so on.

[Bjornbert]

That it does but the irony is I'm actually agreeing with an earlier post which disagreed with me. When you write a story, you may include many elements beyond genre. Star Wars is a science-fiction fantasy Space Western which includes elements of samurai films. Bladerunner is a science-fiction Noir Detective story.

And so on and so on.

Yeah, but those are marked by objective criteria. It has space ships? It's definetly SF(not all SF has space ships mind you). But with grimdark are there any objective criteria?   A great amount of graphic violence? How do you measure the violence? Is there a point from where it's grimdark and before it wasn't? Take Mark Lawrence's books. The violence isn't that graphical IMO. But he's still considered one of the pillars of grimdark.

 

Then if you actually find the criteria, it would be a too narrow definition for me. I'd like a specific subgenre of books set in a secondary world, restricted to a particular town and. with politics playing an important role. There are many books that would fit, but isn't it a ridiculous subgenre?

[Darth Richard II]

What if the space ships are powered by magic elf crystals?

[maarsen]

What if the space ships are powered by magic elf crystals?

Dammit, I wish I had thought of that. That would be a real genre bender.

[Bjornbert]

What if the space ships are powered by magic elf crystals?

SF and fantasy together. Isn't that what Pern is(haven't read but I've heard this)? 

[C.T. Phipps]

The Broken Empire Trilogy is a post-apocalypse science-fiction novel.....about zombies, evil wizards, and Game of Thrones intrigue.

That's why I don't put much stock in genre as an absolute..

[peterbound]

Shit you want genre blending . . . The Dark Tower anyone? It's a post apocalyptic Arthurian portal fantasy that's also a western. And that's only in the beginning. King goes straight up meta with it by the end. Was Roland Deschein a knight or a cowboy? Who the hell knows.

Neither. All he really was, really, was poorly written.

Goddamn those books sucked.

[Puntificator]

"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

— Alan Moore

 

I don't buy books based on Alan Moore's thoughts, nor do I do anything else based on them, otherwise I'd be an anarchist and an occultist. Of course life isn't divided into genres; so what? I also don't believe (despite Alan's beliefs and practices) it has any fantastical magic (in the literal sense) in it either, but I still prefer to read books that do. I have also found that life can be both boring and exciting, but I still favor exciting books, thank you. Life isn't written in prose. In other words, the quoted comment is a false and/or useless analogy. My criteria (and hopefully yours) for what books I'll buy and read is very, very different from my criteria on how I want to experience life. 

[Puntificator]

You're missing out on a lot of good books then.

Maybe. But I am also reading a lot of great books that I wouldn't/couldn't be reading if I were expending the time I use to read them on YA or paranormal romance instead. My TBR list is huge; I need some filters to minimize its growth. With YA in particular, if a book is aimed at the tastes of, or what's fitting for, young adults, well I am the wrong target. I might still like it if I read it, but I have better odds for that to be true if I read a book not aimed at the YA group, especially since I like complex plots and prose.