Roberts love of Lyanna, how real was it?

[John Doe]

I'm explaining why some of it can come from pride, as that other poster suggested. 

That's why I explained why I don't see pride being a major motivation.

On a side note, if Robert didn't know her long enough, the same can be said about Rhaegar. 

[FuzzyJAM]

That's why I explained why I don't see pride being a major motivation.

On a side note, if Robert didn't know her long enough, the same can be said about Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar was motivated by pride to show his power in "stealing" a Lord Protector's betrothed?  I don't find that very likely.  Maybe you're talking about something else?

I can certainly see Rhaegar not thinking it through or not caring about the consequences being an aspect of pride ("I'm the prince, I do what I like!"), but not his actions themselves.  

[bemused]

I think Lyanna had Robert pegged correctly. What he was lacking was constancy. He may have had some difficulty in differentiating between love and lust and it may well be that he was able to keep Lyanna enshrined as his ideal love for all those years because he never had to live with her and see her at anything less than her best. He never had to hear a word of disapproval from her.

You can't really put his reactions and emotions down to pure posessiveness because she never really was his. His prize was snatched away before it was ever really in his hands.

At the same time, the whole situation around Southron Ambitions, Harrenhall, Rhaegar and Elia, and Aerys' fixation on finding the KoLT are very murky, and there are peculiarities with the timeline.. So we don't know..Was it an abduction, an elopment, or did Rhaegar rescue Lyanna from abduction by Aerys ..and nature took it's course from there ?

[UnViserion]

Has anyone ever explained away the hypocrisy of Lyanna finding fault in Roberts hypothetical (likely, but still hypothetical) inability to stay to one bed, then proceeding to become "the other woman" in another couples marriage?

 

 

 

[SilentDystopia]

Has anyone ever explained away the hypocrisy of Lyanna finding fault in Roberts hypothetical (likely, but still hypothetical) inability to stay to one bed, then proceeding to become "the other woman" in another couples marriage?

 

 

 

Some say because of true love between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Some say "we just don't know", while also preaching Lyanna and Rhaegar loved each other and Robert is a whoremonger who would be the same person with Lyanna as he is with Cersei. Some say that Elia would have been ok with it because of her being Donish so it's not really cheating. 

[redtree]

Ok, it was lust when they met. And then, why couldn't have developed into real love?

It could've BUT it's not in their case. They were in honeymoon stage, not facing the real world just like every couple who just start to date.
The start is always the best thing, they justify their couple's annoying behavior and deem it as cute or normal only after several years together it started become annoying because their couple being around has become usual and the lust fog has lifted, not a special thing anymore, no more challenge and discovery. 

They were both busy f*cking in the middle of nowhere with the justification of to conceive magic baby, shut out from the reality outside that people had died thanks to their drama. It's not logical, it's selfish. The quiet Rhaegar hadn't seen the real wild Lyanna yet in the daily setting, and Lyanna hadn't faced the reality of being mistress to crown prince. 

[redtree]

Has anyone ever explained away the hypocrisy of Lyanna finding fault in Roberts hypothetical (likely, but still hypothetical) inability to stay to one bed, then proceeding to become "the other woman" in another couples marriage?

Totally 

[UnViserion]

Many people, many, many times. But some people are so dense simple answers just can't get through.

please elaborate 

use small words-- I'm not as bright as you

[UnViserion]

Some say because of true love between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Some say "we just don't know", while also preaching Lyanna and Rhaegar loved each other and Robert is a whoremonger who would be the same person with Lyanna as he is with Cersei. Some say that Elia would have been ok with it because of her being Donish so it's not really cheating. 

the last one is my favorite excuse. The future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms doesn't care that her husband takes a second wife/lover, helping to plunge the entire realm into war.

 

[corbon]

please elaborate 

Again? Well I have to admit, the search function in this forum is pretty poor.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Lyanna's complaint is keeping to one bed. And she is thoroughly proven right. Even before she died Robert fucked anything that moved and there is no evidence to suggest he hypothetically might have changed after marrying her. This is not a case, as you try to portray it, of her worried about his 'hypothetical behaviour', its her being aware of his existing behaviour and not being prepared to rely on a hypothetical change in his behaviour after they were married.

Rhaegar on the other hand is not known to have ever cheated on Elia up to this point (and beyond this point he may not have either - if he married Lyanna polygamously). He has already proven himself capable of sticking to one bed.
But that bed is (or at least can be) closed to him now. Elia cannot risk having more children, and they were never in love according to all the data we have, so there is no need (and some risk to her) for him to share Elia's bed any more.

Thus Lyanna can go with Rhaegar and not have him bed-hopping on her, which is what she expects (rightly) Robert will do.

Thus no hypocrisy.

use small words-- I'm not as bright as you

I didn't say or suggest that. Just that its been repeated many times, and then I implied that some people (which may or may not include you, I don't know, depends on whether you've actually seen the explanations or not) deliberately refused to understand either explanation. Dense in this case doesn't really mean non-bright, it means stubborn to the point of idiocy. And its up to you whether you decide to sit in this category. Disagreeing with it won't put you there, but refusing to understand it probably will.

[redtree]

Rhaegar on the other hand is not known to have ever cheated on Elia up to this point (and beyond this point he may not have either - if he married Lyanna polygamously). He has already proven himself capable of sticking to one bed.
But that bed is (or at least can be) closed to him now. Elia cannot risk having more children, and they were never in love according to all the data we have, so there is no need (and some risk to her) for him to share Elia's bed any more.

Thus Lyanna can go with Rhaegar and not have him bed-hopping on her, which is what she expects (rightly) Robert will do.

Thus no hypocrisy.

So for the simplified version, she hates cheater but it's ok for Rhaegar to cheat as long as it's with Lyanna alone and she also demanded that he abandoned his wife's physical needs ? It's ok to cheat as long as it's not on her ? That's rich, and guess what ? He still a cheater and she's the main accomplish

Put it this way, she knows being cheated on is hurtful and embarassing which was why she didn't seem eager to marry Robert, why did it to another human being ? Right,because the world revolves around her and Rhaegar alone, the other are just noises
That is a hypocritical behavior and selfish, somehow remind me of Caitlyn Jenner's behavior toward the gays

[corbon]

So for the simplified version, she hates cheater but it's ok for Rhaegar to cheat as long as it's with Lyanna alone

Its not cheating if they are married.

and she also demanded that he abandoned his wife's physical needs ?

His wife, who is a political marriage only and not even his choice (or hers), cannot risk a pregnancy. There is no reason for hem to maintain a sexual relationship any more.

It's ok to cheat as long as it's not on her ? That's rich, and guess what ? He still a cheater and she's the main accomplish

Put it this way, she knows being cheated on is hurtful and embarassing which was why she didn't seem eager to marry Robert, why did it to another human being ? Right,because the world revolves around her and Rhaegar alone, the other are just noises
That is a hypocritical behavior and selfish, somehow remind me of Caitlyn Jenner's behavior toward the gays

Its real simple. Rhaegar and Elia are probably no longer in a physical relationship. That means he's not cheating on her. How is that so difficult to understand?

[redtree]

Its not cheating if they are married.

IF, big if. If they are married why not tell Ned ? Where's the proof that they are married ?
 

His wife, who is a political marriage only and not even his choice (or hers)

Almost 99% of ASOIAF marriage is arranged, saying that it's ok to shame her because it's arrange marriage is laughable and dishonorable

There is no reason for hem to maintain a sexual relationship any more.

Moon Tea is effective, just because she shouldn't have any more children doesn't mean she doesn't have physical needs. Even Aegon had sex with Visenya once every 10 night

Its real simple. Rhaegar and Elia are probably no longer in a physical relationship. That means he's not cheating on her. How is that so difficult to understand?

False, it's stated that Elia shouldn't have any more children not that her sexual instinct got dulled, she can drink moon tea. 
And they are still married. Unless that marriage set aside by high septon (which is 99.99 % is unlikely) then it's still cheating. It's in their vow, "cursed upon another who comes between them". So yeah, cheating, which was why it was so scandalous. How is that so difficult to understand ?
 

And funny how you didn't address about hypocrisy and their selfishness by just saying it's not cheating. Husband ran away with teenage girl and Elia shouldn't act butthurt or shamed at all. Makes sense

 

 

 

[Minstral]

It does seem like this is one of those topics that we as readers like to play a game of "fill in the blanks". In this case we assume more than we know, and then treat an opinion of the events we formed as the "truth" of the event.

Its real simple. Rhaegar and Elia are probably no longer in a physical relationship. That means he's not cheating on her. How is that so difficult to understand?

Pretty much like this. Would you back away from that statement if you considered that A) You don't actually know if Rhaegar and Ellia were actually not still physically active in the bedroom or not. B ) You do not know whatever it is that they might have talked about regarding their relationship, like say they did or did not discuss getting a third person in their relationship and resurrect Targ polygamy (I really doubt that). 

 

[Drogonthedread]

Its not a love at all ...  He might have cared for her ....  

But for Robert I think she is the one thing that he can't get his hands on ...so that's why he is obsessed with her ...if say married and had her he would have not been obsessed the same with her .......

If he loved her that much then it should have been him that went along with Brandon .....no one could have stopped Robert if he decided to Go to KL....but he didn't go......and when fighting a war and thinking that the girl you loved was being raped but you go and qhoring during the battle....one has to wonder is this what called love

 

[bemused]

Perhaps Ned was told that they were married.. we don't know. But if they were, I assume Lyanna would have told him... He still could not tell anyone else. Jon would still not be safe from Robert.

Where's the proof either way?

We just have to wait until GRRM is ready to tell us.

But of course, the old gods don't dance to a septon's tune ,and septons are not always so punctilious ... otherwise, there wouldn't have been polygamous Targaryen marriages or brother / sister marriages.

And we really don't know whether Elia felt aggrieved or not.

[corbon]

IF, big if. If they are married why not tell Ned ? Where's the proof that they are married ?
 

Who said she didn't tell Ned? We don't know what she did and did not tell him.
Who said she had enough energy to tell Ned, that it mattered at all in the big scheme of things, compared to other things, with her dying breath?

Proof, None. Evidence, the behavior and words of the 3KG at ToJ. The aims and needs of Rhaegar Targaryen as best we can tell from the data we have. Both point towards marriage, even if they don't prove it conclusively.

Almost 99% of ASOIAF marriage is arranged, saying that it's ok to shame her because it's arrange marriage is laughable and dishonorable

Thats a bad straw man argument. Don't lower yourself to this.

Moon Tea is effective, just because she shouldn't have any more children doesn't mean she doesn't have physical needs. Even Aegon had sex with Visenya once every 10 night

Tough bickies. This is life in the elite, where you don't get a relationship that satisfies every need or want you have, you get power and wealth and privilege to pass on to your children instead.
And is moon tea 100% effective? Or 100% safe? I don't think its easy to say yes it is. Ask Lysa how safe it is... Abstinence, especially when love is not in the picture, might very well be a preferred option.

False, it's stated that Elia shouldn't have any more children not that her sexual instinct got dulled, she can drink moon tea. 

Who said she ever wanted to have sex with Rhaegar? Or still wants it? Political match, remember. "Fondness" when asked about love, remember.

And they are still married. Unless that marriage set aside by high septon (which is 99.99 % is unlikely) then it's still cheating. It's in their vow, "cursed upon another who comes between them". So yeah, cheating, which was why it was so scandalous. How is that so difficult to understand ?

Its not difficult to understand, its just not an accurate picture.
If he marries her, its not cheating, period.
And if he's not physically with Elia anymore, then Lyanna is not coming between them, she's joining them.

Never mind that thats not Lyanna's concern. Bed hopping is her expressed concern. And being sold as a brood mare to a man she isn't interested in would seem to rate up there as well, probably.

And funny how you didn't address about hypocrisy and their selfishness by just saying it's not cheating. Husband ran away with teenage girl and Elia shouldn't act butthurt or shamed at all. Makes sense

Too busy ranting to listen? Lyanna's beef about Robert is that he wouldn't keep to one bed while he was with her. Rhaegar probably could. Thats the sum total. There is no hypocrisy there.
Selfishness? Well, there may be an element there. Hard to argue that though when the alternative to a certain amount of  selfishness is being sold off as a brood mare for life to a man she didn't want. Its not a very enlightened argument you are making there...
Heck, its not even like Robert tried to woo her. Note how at Harrenhal while he has a rare opportunity to hang out with her or pay any attention at all to her, he is instead drinking his buddies under the table...
And what Elia should or should not feel hasn't at any point been part of the discussion, so enough with the straw men again already. Never mind that going around telling everyone how people ought to feel is one of the most arrogant, selfish and prejudiced things anyone can do, even more so when the teller has almost no contextual information to work with.
The fact is that there are reason why Elia might not have major issues with this, both personal and political. So absent any information from her (which we don't have), we can't tell what she did feel. Or for that matter whether Rhaegar took this into account or not.

It does seem like this is one of those topics that we as readers like to play a game of "fill in the blanks". In this case we assume more than we know, and then treat an opinion of the events we formed as the "truth" of the event.

Well, the more vicious certainly do. And those who like myself, feel that caution is warranted and there are plenty of alternatives to the worst case scenarios so loudly denounced end up looking like we are claiming a 'truth' just because its tiresome to type out 'possibilities' and 'option's' and the like all the time. Especially when the other side doesn't even make a semblance of an effort to do so.

Pretty much like this. Would you back away from that statement if you considered that A) You don't actually know if Rhaegar and Ellia were actually not still physically active in the bedroom or not. B ) You do not know whatever it is that they might have talked about regarding their relationship, like say they did or did not discuss getting a third person in their relationship and resurrect Targ polygamy (I really doubt that). 

I don't have to back away. I'm not the one throwing around accusations and abuse, I'm merely pointing out that there are very reasonable scenarios in which the accusations are entirely false and the abuse totally unwarranted. And various shades between too.

Consider this probability:
Rhaegar needs another child, a third head of the dragon and a spare to his heir. Elia can't give it to him, period. There has to be another woman, period. Elia can either give her consent and keep her marriage, her position, her connection to her children, her power, or be put aside. They aren't wonderful options, but they are what is available to her. There's a fair chance she'd agree under that position. And this isn't even particularly unusual, its just dynastic succession etc in play and applies to all the nobility. The only unusual thing here is that the polygamy option is actually on the cards allowing her to keep her position as wife-and-future-queen while no longer having to act as a brood mare.

[redtree]

Who said she didn't tell Ned? We don't know what she did and did not tell him.
Who said she had enough energy to tell Ned, that it mattered at all in the big scheme of things, compared to other things, with her dying breath?

Not she but he, Rhaegar, telling him would've at the very least push the pause button

Proof, None. Evidence, the behavior and words of the 3KG at ToJ. The aims and needs of Rhaegar Targaryen as best we can tell from the data we have. Both point towards marriage, even if they don't prove it conclusively.

 

Focus on the None. None of 3KG said they were married, that's one weak reason to be made as proof

Thats a bad straw man argument. Don't lower yourself to this.

Where's the straw ? Point it
It's true that most of ASOIAF marriage is arrange, doesn't mean it's ok to cheat, especially to 'kidnap' a girl and shame your spouse in front of the whole country, for the 2nd time. Are you saying Elia shouldn't be shamed because of this, because it's 'not cheating' to your stand ? Jeez, get your EQ check

Tough bickies. This is life in the elite, where you don't get a relationship that satisfies every need or want you have, you get power and wealth and privilege to pass on to your children instead.

Doesn't mean it's lawful or morally right to do
 

And is moon tea 100% effective? Or 100% safe? I don't think its easy to say yes it is. Ask Lysa how safe it is... Abstinence, especially when love is not in the picture, might very well be a preferred option.

False, Lysa was given Tansy not moon tea. Tansy is for abortion, moon tea is in lighter class and very common. In Arya's chapter Lady Smallwood said girls across riverland has been drinking moon tea thanks to that singer
 

Who said she ever wanted to have sex with Rhaegar? Or still wants it? Political match, remember. "Fondness" when asked about love, remember.

Where did it say that she doesn't want it ? Where did it say that her sexual instinct was gone ? He's her husband so he should be her outlet and like all normal woman she surely has sexual drives.

If he marries her, its not cheating, period.
And if he's not physically with Elia anymore, then Lyanna is not coming between them, she's joining them.

IF again. Refer to your answer none in the first paragraph. 

Never mind that thats not Lyanna's concern. Bed hopping is her expressed concern. 

You're saying that she concerns about herself and her alone. Selfish much ?

Too busy ranting to listen? Lyanna's beef about Robert is that he wouldn't keep to one bed while he was with her. Rhaegar probably could. Thats the sum total. There is no hypocrisy there.

I wonder how do you define hypocrisy, being hypocrite is to condemn an action yet he/she is doing it. Her words is that Robert will never keep to one bed, not to her bed. She condems that kind of guy yet fell for that very kind of guy, that's hypocrisy and selfishness

Selfishness? Well, there may be an element there. Hard to argue that though when the alternative to a certain amount of  selfishness is being sold off as a brood mare for life to a man she didn't want. Its not a very enlightened argument you are making there...
Heck, its not even like Robert tried to woo her. Note how at Harrenhal while he has a rare opportunity to hang out with her or pay any attention at all to her, he is instead drinking his buddies under the table...

You're running from the argument. She's selfish because she doesn't want it to happen to her yet according to your argument she's ok for another to suffer the very same thing she hates. Not wanting to marry Robert is fine, but running away with someone else's husband especially with a wife who recently almost die giving birth is not

Everyone is a brood mare for family business deal, there. That's how it works back then. Not just the girls but the boys too. Tommen was sold to Margaery because she's backed by 100k swords, Margaery was sold to Tommen for a crown. Why should she get a special pass ?

And what Elia should or should not feel hasn't at any point been part of the discussion, so enough with the straw men again already. Never mind that going around telling everyone how people ought to feel is one of the most arrogant, selfish and prejudiced things anyone can do, even more so when the teller has almost no contextual information to work with.
The fact is that there are reason why Elia might not have major issues with this, both personal and political. So absent any information from her (which we don't have), we can't tell what she did feel. Or for that matter whether Rhaegar took this into account or not.

Yeah, she's only the wife right ? The reason why it was hell a lot harder for Romeo and Juliet to get married, don't forget the kids too, or shall we ? 

Let's shut out her feelings or pretend that she's an emotionless stone, it's easier that way. She was the one who got the piss of the deal, it's easier to make Lyanna seems innocent and selfless if we pretend the wife doesn't exist or beaming with approval. She's totally fine with her husband making baby and threatened her children's position. Ssshhh....

I understand what you're selling, i'm just not buying it

[John Doe]

Rhaegar was motivated by pride to show his power in "stealing" a Lord Protector's betrothed?

I did not say that, that would be ridiculous. I said Rhaegar didn't know her for a long time as well (relevant because some people who say Robert couldn't have loved Lyanna because he spent too little time with her say Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared because they loved each other). I did not mean it as a direct response to you, I understand why it looked like I did, but I wanted to avoid two posts in a row.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't see why people think that he didn't loved her. Some people can love someone whithout spending their lives together. Sure Robert had sex, and? Is sex the meter for someone's love?