You're GRRM's editor. He gives you his manuscript of A Feast for Crows. There's a red pen in your hand.

[Dofs]

I can't speak against Aeron's, Victarion's, Asha's and Areoh' POVs because I have no idea how important will they be later (Victarion already seems to be pretty important and his POV in Feast is already justified by his story in Dance). But Arys... The most redundant, unnecessary POV ever. I can't understand how his editor let it happen. Even George himself thinks it was a bad idea.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1 chapter dorne - actually kill myrcella

1 II chapter (kings moot)

1/2 as many cersei chapters.

no brienne chapters (instead have her show up again in Jaimes POV).

arya... 1 chapter for all the AFFC/ADWD content then continue her story.

Sansa... 1 chapter of AFFC content - then continue her story.

jaime - 2-3 chapters

 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

What important information did Hotah give us that Arianne couldn't? His POV doesn't even tell us who betrayed Arianne. His POV doesn't add anything to the plot. And yes Brienne POV does give us some insight to the non-nobles, but that could've been done w/o the random detour.

Hotah is very perceptive and always at Dorans side. It's the next best thing to being a Doran PoV without actually spoiling Dorans plans by being in his head.

[FuzzyJAM]

I can't speak against Aeron's, Victarion's, Asha's and Areoh' POVs because I have no idea how important will they be later (Victarion already seems to be pretty important and his POV in Feast is already justified by his story in Dance). But Arys... The most redundant, unnecessary POV ever. I can't understand how his editor let it happen. Even George himself thinks it was a bad idea.

I was wondering why you'd misspelled Arya and what your issue was with her chapters and then I remembered The Soiled Knight.  So yeah, going to have to agree his PoV wasn't the most impactful given that I forgot about it despite rereading the books a month ago.  

But it's hard to say what GRRM should edit because it's difficult to know what his long term plans are with the series.  Even with Arys, perhaps some KG info he gave out will be crucial.  Though given Jaime talks about the KG as well, it seems hard to imagine he's the only possible source of that.  So maybe there's something else.  Or it needed emphasis.  Or. . .eh, who knows?  

For myself, I don't want to change anything major about the books.  I respect the work enough that I'd rather have the author's vision as is, even if I don't love every part (and AFFC is certainly the weakest in the series as far as I'm concerned).  I wouldn't want to be involved in the creative process at all - if you gain some authorial control over something, you change your relationship to it entirely.  Part of the fun of ASOIAF is that no one is going to get what they want.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The one that has to go was Pate.

Make Arys the prologue, have him tell us what's going on in Dorne, how Arianne is plotting against her father, take Myrcella with him and make him face Areoh's axe. Also, make him interact with the Sand Snakes to know what they are up to.

Next, have Arianne giving us more info: keep it all in "Princess in the Tower".

 

[Pod The Rod]

He isn't that stupid and Aeron will be important.

Yes, he is that stupid. Victarion "My Wife Made Me Kill Her" Greyjoy was referred to BY GRRM HIMSELF as "dumb as a stump".

Tywin Lannister was way more important than the Damphair could ever be, and he had no POV. Only Iron Island POV we needed were Asha and Victarion, and Victarion shouldn't have had his first chapter until after the kingsmoot.

The one that has to go was Pate.

Make Arys the prologue, have him tell us what's going on in Dorne, how Arianne is plotting against her father, take Myrcella with him and make him face Areoh's axe. Also, make him interact with the Sand Snakes to know what they are up to.

Next, have Arianne giving us more info: keep it all in "Princess in the Tower".

 

Oh, forgot about Pate. Yep, that was the worst prologue in the series. His sniveling about Rosey the whole time was just pathetic.

Good idea to make Arys the prologue.

[Monoman32]

The High Sparrow's first appearance on page was way too late. Move some chapters from Dance so you could fit at least one of the battle in Dance.  Sansa and Arya needed more chapters.  Brienne and Cersei need less chapters and some of the chapters need to be shorter.  Another POV in KL could work.  Jaime's story line saved the book IMO.  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not sure about "Feast of Dragons". I guess the main problem would be the one book might end up being a very expensive book, rather than the length. I mean, kids read Order of the Phoenix and that book was huuuuge. I'd have no problem reading a 1000 pages book, but I might have a bit of a problem buying it or carrying it around.

[Pod The Rod]

I'm not sure about "Feast of Dragons". I guess the main problem would be the one book might end up being a very expensive book, rather than the length. I mean, kids read Order of the Phoenix and that book was huuuuge. I'd have no problem reading a 1000 pages book, but I might have a bit of a problem buying it or carrying it around.

Storm and Dance are already well over 1000 pages as it is.

[Maxxine]

Hotah is very perceptive and always at Dorans side. It's the next best thing to being a Doran PoV without actually spoiling Dorans plans by being in his head.

This would be important if Doran was actually doing something. We get to watch Hotah stand beside Doran as he sits at the Water Gardens. We don't learn anything significant about Doran or his plans through Hotah's POV. The two significant things we learn about that's going on Dorne is Arianne's plan for Myrcella and the Dornish alliance with the Targs. Both of which happen through Arianne's POV. I think sand snakes will be important too. But I think everything we learn about them is also given to us through Arianne. Even if we do learn something about them through Hotah that information could've easily been given through Arianne. The one thing Hotah can give us that Arianne can't is who betrayed her and he doesn't even give us that.

[Dofs]

I was wondering why you'd misspelled Arya and what your issue was with her chapters and then I remembered The Soiled Knight.  So yeah, going to have to agree his PoV wasn't the most impactful given that I forgot about it despite rereading the books a month ago.  

But it's hard to say what GRRM should edit because it's difficult to know what his long term plans are with the series.  Even with Arys, perhaps some KG info he gave out will be crucial.  Though given Jaime talks about the KG as well, it seems hard to imagine he's the only possible source of that.  So maybe there's something else.  Or it needed emphasis.  Or. . .eh, who knows?  

For myself, I don't want to change anything major about the books.  I respect the work enough that I'd rather have the author's vision as is, even if I don't love every part (and AFFC is certainly the weakest in the series as far as I'm concerned).  I wouldn't want to be involved in the creative process at all - if you gain some authorial control over something, you change your relationship to it entirely.  Part of the fun of ASOIAF is that no one is going to get what they want.  

Well, given the fact that GRRM himself said that what happened in Arys' chapter could be told from Arianne's perspective, I don't think anything worth of mentioning was told in Arys' POV. GRRM probably just wanted to show Dorne from a perspective of a usual guy from the Reach and it was a very bad idea, imo.

Tywin Lannister was way more important than the Damphair could ever be, and he had no POV. Only Iron Island POV we needed were Asha and Victarion, and Victarion shouldn't have had his first chapter until after the kingsmoot.

But Aeron is now the only POV on Iron Isles and is basically now the only POV that can show us Euron. It's too early to say that he is unimportant, imo. To say that he shouldn't have been a POV because Tywin, non-POV, was more important to him would mean that many POVs should be cut, starting from Sam and Brienne and ending with Jaime himself, whos importance to the plot has been almost nonexistent once his POV chapters had started.

[Dofs]

I'm not sure about "Feast of Dragons". I guess the main problem would be the one book might end up being a very expensive book, rather than the length. I mean, kids read Order of the Phoenix and that book was huuuuge. I'd have no problem reading a 1000 pages book, but I might have a bit of a problem buying it or carrying it around.

A DwD was already a 1000 page book, together with Feast it would have been a 1700 page book or something like that. The problem wouldn't be having a book too long to read or it being too expansive, the problem would have been having a book too long to print. That was the reason why Dance's entire ending was cut - the publisher was refusing to print such a long book so Martin had to move its ending to the Winds.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

This would be important if Doran was actually doing something. We get to watch Hotah stand beside Doran as he sits at the Water Gardens. We don't learn anything significant about Doran or his plans through Hotah's POV. The two significant things we learn about that's going on Dorne is Arianne's plan for Myrcella and the Dornish alliance with the Targs. Both of which happen through Arianne's POV. I think sand snakes will be important too. But I think everything we learn about them is also given to us through Arianne. Even if we do learn something about them through Hotah that information could've easily been given through Arianne. The one thing Hotah can give us that Arianne can't is who betrayed her and he doesn't even give us that.

Not at all, we also get an unbiased third-party view of Dorne that we can relate to as readers. Hotah thinks about how strange the Dornish are and he pays attention to small details such as which people toast to Tommen and the time Doran pats one of the sand snakes on the head (and may have been poisoned). These things we want to know but Arianne wouldn't bother to notice and would just be moping about her own importance or Darkstars cock.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

@Dofs @Pod The Rod, by "1000" I was just giving a random number. I honestly don't remember how long my ASOIAF copies are. The thing is that Feast and Dance are already long books, and even after cuts and editions, they will be very long books that, as Dofs says, will be problematic to print too. I have a few friends working on publishing, I'll see if I can ask them about the logistics.

[Maxxine]

Not at all, we also get an unbiased third-party view of Dorne that we can relate to as readers. Hotah thinks about how strange the Dornish are and he pays attention to small details such as which people toast to Tommen and the time Doran pats one of the sand snakes on the head (and may have been poisoned). These things we want to know but Arianne wouldn't bother to notice and would just be moping about her own importance or Darkstars cock.

I think Arianne would've noticed the things Hotah did at the dinner. She's not stupid. And her outlook & attitude significantly changed after she's released from her imprisonment. She may not have spent a whole bunch of time analyzing it bc she has more important things to think about, but she would've noticed. I'll agree that Hotah gives us an outsiders view of Dorne. However, these ancillary details don't justify a POV. Oakheart could've given us this same view. Oakheart isn't necessary either but at least his internal thoughts are interesting.

[FuzzyJAM]

Well, given the fact that GRRM himself said that what happened in Arys' chapter could be told from Arianne's perspective, I don't think anything worth of mentioning was told in Arys' POV. GRRM probably just wanted to show Dorne from a perspective of a usual guy from the Reach and it was a very bad idea, imo.

Yeah, if GRRM thinks it was bad then I guess we could do without it.  But I'm mostly just saying I don't want authorial control myself.    I would guess that the White Book stuff of Jaime was added later, along with a struggle over whether to include Hotah as the non-Dornish Dornishman.  By the time it was decided to include these and they were seen to make Arys redundant, his PoV was too embedded to be removed without a total rewrite of Arianne.  

@Dofs @Pod The Rod, by "1000" I was just giving a random number. I honestly don't remember how long my ASOIAF copies are. The thing is that Feast and Dance are already long books, and even after cuts and editions, they will be very long books that, as Dofs says, will be problematic to print too. I have a few friends working on publishing, I'll see if I can ask them about the logistics.

I'm not an expert, but I've read that such long books are much harder to print.  That's why a lot of countries print ASOS in two volumes.  Well, that and the fact that two books can be sold for more than one.   

[BrettG]

In other words, I'd tell him, "Cut the fat or streamline stuff or whatever, but you need to fit all of this shit in one book. I don't care how you do it, but the separate books thing ain't gonna fly"

100% this.  Feast and Dance should have been one book, with the ending battles in place at the end, rather than at the start of the next book.  By the time it's all said and done, it will have taken 2000 pages to tell the middle of the story.  That is absolutely ludicrous.  So when I look at Feast and Dance, it's not even really a matter of what individual things I would cut or change, it's essentially a complete restructuring and rewriting process.  First change, you get one book, 1000 pages, to tell this story.  It has to include all of Feast and Dance and the beginning of Winds.  Full stop.

Next.  Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are the heart of the story, every important theme or story idea is contained in some form within their arcs, and they are the principal characters.  So completely ditching them for an entire book was an abysmal idea, and then having their storylines go in circles for another 1000 pages was also problematic.  These are the main characters, and as such have to be the three principal storylines.  They also need to be condensed.  Jon needs half as many chapters, same with Daenerys.  Tyrion's chapters needs to be cut by about 2/3 in order to make room for the end of his arc (presumably taking over the rule of Meereen following the battle).  Preferably one chapter with Illyrio, one with Aegon's crew, one to get him with Jorah, one traveling with Jorah, and then one to get the two of them outside of Meereen/into the sellsword company.  Then you have room for at least three or four more chapters to get through the battle and give a satisfying conclusion to his arc.  Not only will you be missing nothing important from what was cut, but you'll still be using fewer chapters than what were used in the actual ADWD.

Next.  Too many characters.  This is a problem with pretty much every work that relies on a large cast of characters -- the desire to add new ones eventually overwhelms everything else, and you're left with too many characters to care about or service properly, and it's just a mess.  Feast and Dance explode a massive pile of new characters onto the reader, and it doesn't work.  There's too many to keep track of, too many to actually give proper development to, and the important characters get lost in the shuffle.  Less time is spent focusing on properly honing Jon's or Tyrion's story because there are twenty other characters sucking up Martin's attention. So next change I would make -- the previous formula of two additional POVs is adhered to.  You're allowed two new POVS in this book, and that's it.  Can't tell the story with only two more?  Then your story is too complicated and needs simplification, which both of these books are and do.  There are so many unnecessary subplots and wastes of time it becomes tedious.  This change not only forces Martin to focus on the actual important storylines, aka Jon and Dany and Tyrion, but also condenses and eliminates much of the redundancy in the others.

How does this work in practice?  Much better.  It means that existing characters will actually have to DO something, not waste time.  If Brienne is retained as a POV, she can't trounce around doing absolutely nothing, she needs to GO somewhere and DO something to make up for the lost POVs.  Sending Jaime to Dorne on the show was absolutely the right call, they just botched the execution horribly.  Have George take that basic idea, and use Jaime to unfold the Dorne arc, and it would be amazing.  Not only can you do the same character arc for Jaime there that was done in the Riverlands, it will also be revealing pertinent plot information (in a way that is fun and interesting to read with a character we know and like, not the sleep-inducing prose of the Hotah chapters). Hell, get him involved in the Queenmaker plot somehow.  Make that ultimate choice even harder for him, choose between Cersei and his daughter.

Instead of Sam being useless and boring, have him leave Eastwatch and get captured in the Narrow Sea by Euron.  Is there any culture where Sam is more a fish out of water than among the Ironborn? Have his courage grow in this situation, actually develop his character, rather than the nothing that happens during Feast.  And if Euron invades Oldtown, Sam even ends up in the same place by the end of the book, and you can pick up on Oldtown/maester stuff from there in Winds.  You can get the exact same Ironborn plot information out in these chapters, but as with Jaime, you'd be doing so much more efficiently, in much fewer pages, while at the same time developing an existing character.

Or do it differently, have Brienne go to Dorne or whatever, which character does what isn't really important, what matters is giving the important characters things to do that both advance the plot and develop their characters.  And this is what isn't happening in these two books.  Unimportant side characters are providing a great deal of the plot information, and the important ones are going in circles doing nothing of note and barely developing.  Jaime is not doing anything important in the Riverlands, and there are no important plot developments in those chapters that couldn't be achieved with a single line of dialogue in a small council meeting.  He has good character development, but it's such a slog to get there that it's not worth it.  Same with Brienne.  She's doing nothing important in her wandering, nothing that happens is ultimately going to matter, and yeah there's some character stuff, but I definitely wouldn't miss it if it was gone.  And then there's so much time spent with unimportant tertiary characters doing nothing but providing exposition -- Arys and Hotah and Aeron and Asha and Davos -- that the rare Jaime or Cersei or Jon chapter are so far removed from the previous one that it's hard to keep invested in the ongoing arc.

So yeah.  I think both these books are largely a mess, obviously.  I don't really think it would be within the power of an editor to fix them.

[Thuckey]

While reading Feast, I was glad to of been introduced to the series only after the show started and Dance was released, otherwise I would of hated having the frustration of missing half the story and it being told at a slower pace and waiting a decade to find out what the other characters were doing - only to find out it wasn't much being missed.

 

Re-reading the series now, and I am currently on Feast but have been switching between feast and dragons almost chapter for chapter and I feel it is much more enjoyable this way.

 

I wish it were one book, and the two battles were fit into the end. Then instead of being the weaker two books of the series, it may of been the best so far but a lot of this is the result of GRRMs change of plans and his need for world-building and details that much the series so great. Sure, there are problems, but it is still better than anything else I've ever read.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

As with every other speculative topic, readers would be wiser to wait until the conclusion of the series, and then make their assessment. It's still too premature to start Monday morning the author just now. All these alterations and omissions people mention might be necessary to the story. We don't, nor can't, know at this time. And if all you amateur authors think you know better than GRRM, then write your own novel series, get it published, and see where it stands, literally, against this one. And then watch a new crop of amateurs dissect your life's work and talk like they could do better, and see how you'd feel.

[ellstaysia]

I like feast but I think you could have lost a few POV's without missing out on much. I'd cut aeron, arys, areo, & victarion. brienne's adventures could have been more streamlined but I do like the downtime & the world building, plus seeing the horrors of war the small folk have gone through. sam's pov is decent cause of maester aemon's recollections/hallucinations & I want to see oldtown for sure.
overall splitting the characters was a bad idea & makes the timeline confusing. I would have rather have had the books shorter & spliced together. dance is my second favourite book in the series so I wouldn't change much there.