You're GRRM's editor. He gives you his manuscript of A Feast for Crows. There's a red pen in your hand.

[FuzzyJAM]

Sex is excellent in novels, but only if it's well done. The early scene between Ned and Cat is lovely. Arys and Arianne is embarrassingly awful, not because it's gratuitous, but because it's horrible. GRRM also tends to repeat himself a lot: Is there a single attractive female whose nipple shape-size he has NOT described? I'm straight, and a female. There's a limit to my fascination with women's nipples. Wish he'd done more with men. 

Personally, I keep a log, complete with illustrations.

Still waiting for the big (or little? - the suspense!) Lollys reveal.

[Dofs]

Sure.  By the logic of insult, gratuitous sex is always valuable in literature, and one should never apply the red pen to it.  In Book 6, GRRM can write 1500 pages of gratuitous sex, and poo scenes just to be gross, and at the end, Dany will still not be in Westeros.  And anyone who complains can be called a "prude".

The premise of this thread is "what would you apply the red pen to".  I'd apply it to the sex scenes, and IMHO, the story would become shorter and more efficient and lose nothing of value.

You would cut like maybe 5 pages from all the 5 books. Grrm's scenes are not long and numerous as some make it sound to be. The longest one probably wouldn't fill a page.

[kimim]

Personally, I keep a log, complete with illustrations.

Still waiting for the big (or little? - the suspense!) Lollys reveal.

I'm sure we'll find out :/ What about some descriptions of men? We get two totally gratuitous lesbian scenes. Why not a few scenes involving cute guys? Straight women and gay men get no service at all. 

[ChillyPolly]

You would cut like maybe 5 pages from all the 5 books.

Sure.  And once they were gone we could discuss what other useless pointless shit we could cut.  Which is what this thread is about.  

[FuzzyJAM]

I'm sure we'll find out :/ What about some descriptions of men? We get two totally gratuitous lesbian scenes. Why not a few scenes involving cute guys? Straight women and gay men get no service at all. 

Well, there's Jorah's nipples.

Sort of.

[tallTale]

So descriptions of Sam's fat pink mast isn't doing it for you?

[ChillyPolly]

Sex is excellent in novels, but only if it's well done. The early scene between Ned and Cat is lovely. Arys and Arianne is embarrassingly awful, not because it's gratuitous, but because it's horrible. GRRM also tends to repeat himself a lot: Is there a single attractive female whose nipple shape-size he has NOT described? I'm straight, and a female. There's a limit to my fascination with women's nipples. Wish he'd done more with men. 

Sorry, but I'm just dying to apply to the red pen to that useless pointless Ned/Cat sex scene.  Not because it's particularly explicit, but merely because it's so pointless and unnecessary.  I'm not 5 years old.  I know that if two reasonably healthy attractive people are married and on reasonably good terms, and have 5 kids, then the husband is probably plowing his wife on a fairly regular basis.  And if the goal is to show love and affection between them, there are far better ways to do it.  I don't need to read "her loins ached from his lovemaking" any more than I need to read "he sighed with relief as the poo dropped from his sphincter".  Red pen, and out it goes.

[kimim]

Sorry, but I'm just dying to apply to the red pen to that useless pointless Ned/Cat sex scene. ..

It's all very, very subjective. I would prefer to red pen most of the Brienne bits in Feast.

So descriptions of Sam's fat pink mast isn't doing it for you?

Tragically, no. That fat pink mast isn't working for me, at all.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm sure we'll find out :/ What about some descriptions of men? We get two totally gratuitous lesbian scenes. Why not a few scenes involving cute guys? Straight women and gay men get no service at all. 

See?  There's no end to that kind of logic.  And can we have more spanking as well?  GRRM can spend 2 volumes trying to make everyone happy with their own particular porn preferences, and at the end Dany will still not have reached Westeros, but she and Daario and a whole bunch of other people all be well-spanked ... etc. etc. etc.

[ChillyPolly]

Sex is a part of people's motivations, sometimes very important one.

Sure.  That's true of the Iliad and the Odyssey as well.  It's even true of Grimm's Fairy Tales.  But none of those works feel the need to describe the sound that a flaccid cock makes as it slides out of a prostitute's cunt.  It really is possible to adequately cover sexual motivation without explicit descriptions in 99% of cases.  Even the Victorians managed it well enough.

[kimim]

See?  There's no end to that kind of logic.  And can we have more spanking as well?  GRRM can spend 2 volumes trying to make everyone happy with their own particular porn preferences, and at the end Dany will still not have reached Westeros, but she and Daario and a whole bunch of other people all be well-spanked ... etc. etc. etc.

No spanking. I'm not into that. lol you're right, though. There's no way on earth that GRRM can please us all. Meanwhile, some porn is better than no porn, and the important thing is to get this plot moving. Knock on wood GRRM will be back to form in Winds.

[ChillyPolly]

This one's just begging for the red pen:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.  ^ ^{prophesy is treacherous} " He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

[Jon Dovahkiin Snow]

What do you do? 

I cue up the Jaws theme song and say "We're gonna need a bigger pen."

Cersei's chapters saved the book for me. Without her POV and the Iron Islanders POV's the book would have almost been unreadable imho. Also, I can't leave out Brienne with Septon Meribald and Jaime's progression. Those were great as well. However, it was a very large book with big portions that were just too hard to read through.  The positive points were few and far between.

[Jon Dovahkiin Snow]

This one's just begging for the red pen:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.  ^ ^{prophesy is treacherous} " He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

Lol i actually find it to be a pretty accurate comparison as far as prophecy goes in this specific world. Rhaegar being a perfect example...

 A magical, heroic, and selfless attempt for the good of the country. All seemed to be going to plan minus a hiccup or two like Elia's health which led to the Stark problem. A simple hiccup while servicing (fulfilling) a flimsy enough prick (prophecy) can definitely potentially do damage to such a now flacid (altered) prick. However, there is still a light at the end of the tunnel.

The prophecy was still seemingly coming closer to being fulfilled and then CLAMP! The metaphorical prick gets chomped and continuously chewed on by Tywin. Although, obviously, this prick (prophecy) is a strong one and may still be healing slowly (it still may be fulfilled), just not before a bunch of rape, murder, betrayal, and heartbreak (the biting of the "prick", still being chomped on by Tywin or under his orders) had to happen.

The prick (prophecy) may not be pretty by the end, but a healed and working prick can still finish the job... only with different champions to fulfill the prophecy than Rhaegar had originally thought, and with a now extremely scarred and traumatized (altered) prick (prophecy).

But if anyone can handle this prick and bring it to completion (fulfillment), it's the new possible prick handlers (champions/3 heads), whoever they may be.

This felt gross.   

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm sure we'll find out :/ What about some descriptions of men? We get two totally gratuitous lesbian scenes. Why not a few scenes involving cute guys? Straight women and gay men get no service at all. 

I mean, I'm pretty sure the raison d'être of Arys' POV was only so we could get a paragraph-long description of Arianne's body and her sentient nipples (those 2 are pretty much fully fleshed characters). God forbid we'd have it the other way around, with Arianne painstakingly describing Arys' body and saying "was it ever a penis this big and responsive?"

[ChillyPolly]

Lol i actually find it to be a pretty accurate comparison as far as prophecy goes in this specific world.

Sure.  And cigars and bananas really do resemble penises to some extent.  There's hardly anything that cannot be compared to a penis, or a vagina, or a vulva, or boobs, or testicles.  If "pretty accurate comparisons" are our only excuse, then if we will we will never stop talking about sex.  And we don't stop talking about it.  And we're becoming stupider as a culture because of it.

But Marwyn really did not, with this comparison, tell us anything useful about prophesy, except that it was treacherous.  Herodotus told us the same thing, without the comparison, and he said it better IMHO.

[FuzzyJAM]

Sure.  And cigars and bananas really do resemble penises to some extent.  There's hardly anything that cannot be compared to a penis, or a vagina, or a vulva, or boobs, or testicles.  If "pretty accurate comparisons" are our only excuse, then if we will we will never stop talking about sex.  And we don't stop talking about it.  And we're becoming stupider as a culture because of it.

But Marwyn really did not, with this comparison, tell us anything useful about prophesy, except that it was treacherous.  Herodotus told us the same thing, without the comparison, and he said it better IMHO.

You can disagree with using it all you like, but at least be aware of what you're criticising.  It very clearly isn't just there to say prophecy is fickle.  It's clearly supposed to give us further insight into Marwyn's. . ."earthy" character.  Note that it happens just after he spits on the floor.  This isn't just random characterisation either, it matters given his split with the rest of the Citadel.  

[Jon Dovahkiin Snow]

Sure.  And cigars and bananas really do resemble penises to some extent.  There's hardly anything that cannot be compared to a penis, or a vagina, or a vulva, or boobs, or testicles.  If "pretty accurate comparisons" are our only excuse, then if we will we will never stop talking about sex.  And we don't stop talking about it.  And we're becoming stupider as a culture because of it.

But Marwyn really did not, with this comparison, tell us anything useful about prophesy, except that it was treacherous.  Herodotus told us the same thing, without the comparison, and he said it better IMHO.

The text isnt comparing specific body parts to anything. The actual body part isn't the subject or point of the comparison.  It's the entire process (that the text informs us of step by step) and emotion one would feel while going through said process that is being compared to prophecy. The process is a "pretty good comparison" imo.

Add the extreme highs and lows the character feels during said process, and especially afterwards, compared to the way the majority of prophecies in ASOIAF have turned out for the characters involved. Extreme feelings of pleasure and excitement followed by an unforgiving and unexpected (and extremely painful) tragedy. Its a clever and accurate comparison when I really think about it and i do find humor in what the writer was trying to say, not because i read about vampire porn or whatever you would call it. (Im sure theres a name for it.)

I have a sense of humor. I love all kinds of comedy and i laugh at everything. (minus anything I find offensive to laugh at that falls below my personal moral code) And i really don't feel that I'm "contributing to the downfall of our culture." The conclusion you've drawn there seems pretty extreme considering the post you were responding to. (I mean... read it. Its a post comparing the healing of a wounded penis to the way prophecies play out in this story. It was obviously not a post to be analyzed or read into too seriously.)

 You claiming that I am contributing to the decline of intelligence in "our culture" is a condescending, inaccurate (and frankly ignorant) overreaction imo. A smug, irrelevant assumption. Imo.

[Sourjapes]

I have a little bit of trouble separating Feast and Dance, so I'll just list the things from both books that I'd rearrange, combine, or cut entirely.
 In no particular order...

 

 

1.) Arya's training in Braavos. Yes, all of it. It isn't really necessary to the plot, doesn't ever tell us anything relevant, and it might be more enjoyable if Arya merely cameo'd in Sam's visit there. She doesn't need to re-enter the story as a POV until she starts taking proactive action again at which point her training can be summed up a few paragraphs.

 

2.) I'd cut out Brienne's POV but take events from it, like the quiet isle and the lost men and add that to Jaime's storyline.

 

3.) No Dorne POV's. A total waste of paper that. We can hear about it via' rumor in Kings Landing during Cersei's chapters.

 

4.) No Quentyn POV. He can turn up Dany's chapter's.

 

5) No Barristan POV. Really, is it at all necessary? We have Dany there and her wondering about what's happening in Mereen and learning of the unfolding chaos there while she is away is more interesting. She will learn it all and sort it out when she returns anyway.

 

6.) Much as I actually enjoyed Tyrion's journey, I would trim it down. Get him to Mereen and involved more in what's happening there faster. Might actually go the show's route here and have him just be presented formally to Dany before she gets whisked away by Drogon.

 

7.) Cut Damphair's chapters. They just aren't necessary, especially with Asha as a POV.

 

 

With all that done, we ought to be able to fit Feast and Dance into one novel. Perhaps the story moved ahead at least in a little further in some places, like say in King's Landing.

[Wendel Shoemaker]

On paper I like the idea of cutting Aeron, Aero and Aerys for the sake of further Arianne and Asha's/Victarion's characters, but I do really love those chapters. Aeron is a great look at the drowned God and a good set up for the Kingsmoot. Aero excellently shows the character of Doran and and tension in Dorne. Aerys is the one chapter I could consider giving to Arianne, but still, I liked the perspective.

I would give Brienne one less chapter with Nimble Dick. Her encounter with the Brave Companions and everything afterwards was interesting, but we didn't need two separate travelling chapters with Nimble Dick. 

Any pacing issues I have with Feast is solved when I read it together with Dance.