Jon Snow will surely live, won't he? But how? Will books and show do it the same way?

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Hidden Content

As my screen name suggests, I was a long-time lurker (found this board in 2011 shortly after the HBO show started), but I was not on the board all the time. I did catch a little bit of that debate, but mostly I have seen people make jokes about it periodically, so I have been aware that some people thought Targs are fireproof, but we know from GRRM that they are not. Occasionally, I will still see someone who thinks they are fireproof make that point -- and then the GRRM quote is brought out and they shut up. By the way, personally, I think the argument that while not fireproof, Targs have some level of higher tolerance to or affinity for heat, is still an open question.

I don't think that the annoyance of having to shoot down a resurgence of "fireproof" advocates is a big enough downside to the upside of having that kick-ass visual. What annoys me more is to have to have an extended conversation in hidden text -- not that I am blaming you as we are just trying to be respectful of the rules -- but they can be tedious.

[RumHam]

Hidden Content

The funny thing is I'm pretty sure we're still violating the rules, and that no show discussion is allowed on this forum even when spoiler tagged. They'll probably get more strict about this once season six starts. 

[bemused]

Well, I don't think he's dead. I think GRRM presents us with multiple more or less obvious options to solve a puzzle , but the real answer is the one that is best hidden, and may have been overlooked entirely by the reader.

(That's meant to be a link, but I've no idea whether it will be or not... I hope it doesn't quote the whole damned thread!) ETA: ah, I see it is a link if you click on the title.

Anyway, the show has not made much of the unnatural strength displayed by Jon and his "siblings" and has not shown his interaction with Thorne before the suicide mission to Mance, or his very telling bout with Iron Emmett.

I think the presence of Mel misleads us because of what we know about Thoros (and Moqorro).

I don't think any kind of "resurrection" will be necessary.

There is a remotely possible clue in the show

in Arya's insane attack on Trant (what is possible for one Stark is possible for another).. but I won't bet on it.

I think the key to Jon's survival is already in his blood and his bond with Ghost, but he won't need to be "out of it" for very long at all. (Certainly in an altered state of consciousness, but not a coma)

ETA: I think Jon has two wounds.. One we know is only a graze and one is of unproven severity. Everything else is up in the air, if you scrutinize GRRM's use of language.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Hidden Content

I thought it was allowed if in a spoiler box - wow, if even that is not allowed then this place is way too strict. I actually sent Ran a message today (not yet gotten a response) in which I suggested that the board add a new sub-forum for the purpose of discussing the books while using show information as part of the analysis -- now that the show is going to go well beyond the time frame of the released books. That way there would be a forum to discuss the books without any show spoilers -- a forum to discuss the show itself -- and then a separate forum for people who want to discuss the books primarily but want to include information from the show in the analysis.

If he does not accept this suggestion, I suspect that the book board will become mess with mods continually having to remind posters not to talk about the show. Just like other "outside sources" -- like an SSM -- the show obviously is a useful source to analyze the books. Even though there will be significant differences (and thus we cannot simply assume that what is on the show will be in the books), the notion that knowledge from the show will not inform our analysis of what is likely to happen in the books is absurd.

Consider my A+J=T thread as an example, If Tyrion is confirmed to be the son of Aerys in season 6 (just an example -- not stating this will happen), then any discussion in that thread without acknowledging that at least on the show it happened would simply not make sense. Debating the issue while pretending not to have that knowledge is just pointless. And having a discussion primarily focused on whether the book will come out the same way on the TV show forum is also not a satisfying solution. That forum is for discussion of the show -- not for discussion primarily of the book while using the show as evidence. So hopefully Ran will get back to me and indicate that he plans to implement some variation on this proposal.

No matter what, even if does something along the lines of what I have suggested, I think it is going to be a mess. Discussing the books without talking about the show -- when you have obvious spoiler information from the show -- it just going to be almost impossible. Especially as time goes on and the season is long over and the book is still not released.

[kimim]

An ice resurrection would be Jon returning as a wight, no?

This is what I mean about Manichean splits in a novel that praises the "grey." Yeah, so far, an ice resurrection would be returning as a wight, and wights are zombies. I'd love it if GRRM complicated that, if he added a wee bit of positive to the ice end of things. It'd be disappointing (for me) if this thing comes down to ice (mostly evil) vs fire (sort of good).

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is what I mean about Manichean splits in a novel that praises the "grey." Yeah, so far, an ice resurrection would be returning as a wight, and wights are zombies. I'd love it if GRRM complicated that, if he added a wee bit of positive to the ice end of things. It'd be disappointing (for me) if this thing comes down to ice (mostly evil) vs fire (sort of good).

Well -- the Starks are themselves ice. The pact of ice and fire was a union of Targ and Stark (mentioned in TWOIAF). And we know that the Starks are heroes (or mostly heroes) in this story. So ice will not be mostly evil -- even if the Others largely are (although I think they will appear a little more gray after the next book when we find out what is motivating the attack -- it is not a mindless evil attack).

The story is about balance. I believe that Jon is TPTWP because Jon is the union of ice (Lyanna) and fire (Rhaegar) and the song of TPTWP is the Song of Ice and Fire.

But Jon does not need an ice resurrection for this analysis to be valid and for ice to be something other than mostly evil in this story.

[kimim]

Well -- the Starks are themselves ice. The pact of ice and fire was a union of Targ and Stark (mentioned in TWOIAF). And we know that the Starks are heroes (or mostly heroes) in this story. So ice will not be mostly evil -- even if the Others largely are (although I think they will appear a little more gray after the next book when we find out what is motivating the attack -- it is not a mindless evil attack).

The story is about balance. I believe that Jon is TPTWP because Jon is the union of ice (Lyanna) and fire (Rhaegar) and the song of TPTWP is the Song of Ice and Fire.

But Jon does not need an ice resurrection for this analysis to be valid and for ice to be something other than mostly evil in this story.

This is true. The two lead families are Starks&Targs, ice and fire. Still, I'm worried that the impending big bad is going to weigh things so heavily against ice that the balance will never be entirely restored. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Lady_Alayne]

Hidden Content

Love this topic, but I agree that there needs to be somewhere to discuss both show and books together.

I wanted to start a thread on how the show has changed people's opinion of book characters  and vica versa, but there does not seem to be anywhere for the discussion to go. 

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

This is true. The two lead families are Starks&Targs, ice and fire. Still, I'm worried that the impending big bad is going to weigh things so heavily against ice that the balance will never be entirely restored. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Join the "Others+Starks vs Dragons+Targaryen in the war for the North's independence" club

[UnmaskedLurker]

Love this topic, but I agree that there needs to be somewhere to discuss both show and books together.

I wanted to start a thread on how the show has changed people's opinion of book characters  and vica versa, but there does not seem to be anywhere for the discussion to go. 

Yes, that is a real problem with the board. Discussion of the TV show is not supposed to be done in the book forum. But the show forum is not really a good place to have a discussion mainly about the books but including discussing the show -- or even discussing both side-by-side. Now I see people violate this edict all the time -- just look at the name of this topic which asks whether the book and show will do the same thing -- technically not allowed I think (but done anyway on a regular basis). If a forum existed that was intended for a discussion of both, then people would have a clear place to discuss those type of issues. Hopefully before the new season starts a new sub-forum will be added that clearly permits such discussions.

[kimim]

Join the "Others+Starks vs Dragons+Targaryen in the war for the North's independence" club

Starks and ice all the way! I'm enjoying the winter.

[Faint]

Not that I ever gave the idea much consideration but Martin has seemingly foreclosed the possibility of Theon being involved in some fashion. 

[Belgarad]

I think Mel will definitely revive Jon on the show.  They went out of their way to intersect Mel and Thoros and have him explain to her how he revived Beric, something that did not occur in the book.

 

My hope in the books (and I admit this theory is way out there and very unlikely to occur) is that Jon's body and soul are split when his soul wargs into Ghost and his body is revived by Mel through some magic ritual.  Ghost-Jon then somehow gets through the tunnel under the wall and makes his way to Bran in the cave where Bran and Bloodraven use there own magic ritual to transfer Jon's soul into Hodor's body.  Then, arming him with Dark Sister, Hodor-Jon confronts his own body and takes it back, reuniting his body and soul.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

In the show they go out of their way to have Mel meet Thoros and see how it was done with Beric. This will more than likely be how she does it with Jon.

 

In the book George goes out of his way to tell us how Warging works and has Mel forsee Jon as a man/wolf/man. due to this most people think it will involve Ghost in some way. It's probably going to be a slightly more complex version of what Thoros does (though they haven't met in the books) and Mel will be making it up as she goes hoping for the best. After all, Thoros does it by accident in both media so Mel doesn't necessarily NEED to have seen Beric to rez Jon. 

 

Personally I believe Ghost will have to be sacrificed to release Jon's soul.

[mediterraneo]

An ice resurrection would be Jon returning as a wight, no?

This is what I mean about Manichean splits in a novel that praises the "grey." Yeah, so far, an ice resurrection would be returning as a wight, and wights are zombies. I'd love it if GRRM complicated that, if he added a wee bit of positive to the ice end of things. It'd be disappointing (for me) if this thing comes down to ice (mostly evil) vs fire (sort of good).

Well, Coldhands is a non-mindless wight. I'm not getting to judge his ethic, but he is not mindless, and clearly had an agenda.
But it is clear that having a mind and a will of your own set the stage for you to be human, if you chose so, and not necessarily black or white - and in this case even being (almost) completely "white" would break the dualism between "good" fire and "bad" ice.
It is already there.

[Curled Finger]

For the show's purposes Mel will figure largely into Jon's revival.  That has already been set up for a long time now.  In the books I expect there to be a far more complicated series of events that happen to Jon while he fights his way back from death, near-death or coma.  I don't actually think he's dead and has gone to Ghost by instinct so I do expect some fascinating Jon chapters as he figures out what's happening to himself.   Imperfect creature that she is, Mel will no doubt make more than 1 attempt at reviving Jon.   I don't for 1 minute believe Ghost has to be sacrificed to bring Jon back.   OTOH, maybe Mel has finally got it together and gets a clear vision in her flames to tell her exactly what must be done.   

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

 

 

Well, Coldhands is a non-mindless wight. I'm not getting to judge his ethic, but he is not mindless, and clearly had an agenda.
But it is clear that having a mind and a will of your own set the stage for you to be human, if you chose so, and not necessarily black or white - and in this case even being (almost) completely "white" would break the dualism between "good" fire and "bad" ice.
It is already there.

That is just not the case. The way I see it, either their both good, or their both bad, or their both grey. Ice being bad, would also imply that the Starks are bad and that is simply not the case, especially when one of them is the personification of Ice and Fire.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

 

Hidden Content

Hm, I guess that's my fault, isn't it? I wanted to talk about both the show and the books. I am relatively new to this forum. What's usually the way to do it, if a topic is relevant in both media?

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

 

 

Well, Coldhands is a non-mindless wight. I'm not getting to judge his ethic, but he is not mindless, and clearly had an agenda.
But it is clear that having a mind and a will of your own set the stage for you to be human, if you chose so, and not necessarily black or white - and in this case even being (almost) completely "white" would break the dualism between "good" fire and "bad" ice.
It is already there.

Is he a wight at all, though? Wights have very light blue eyes, while he has not.

[RumHam]

Hm, I guess that's my fault, isn't it? I wanted to talk about both the show and the books. I am relatively new to this forum. What's usually the way to do it, if a topic is relevant in both media?

I think that at the moment the only place you're supposed to do it is in the show forum, marking the thread [Book Spoilers]. The board FAQ doesn't seem to have survived the upgrade, so I can't really check.