WWE Royal Rumble

[Joe Pesci]

12 hours ago, briantw said:

Takeover: Orlando ended up being on of the best wrestling shows I've ever watched.  Just a fantastic card from top to bottom.  

The tag team match was a MOTY candidate, and Moon/Asuka was the best women's match since Sasha/Bayley almost two years ago.  The other three matches all hovered somewhere between good and great.

Also, Asuka is so much better as a heel than I could have ever envisioned.  She's just so fantastic at being a cocky bitch.  Very impressed by how all of her little mannerisms have changed slightly to support her heel turn.

I watched this earlier today, pretty impressive from top to bottom. The Raw tag team ladder match is going to have to really deliver to top what they did on Takeover, same goes for both womens' matches. Looking forward to Wrestlemania getting started here soon.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I found myself unable to watch Wreslemania today -- didn't organize well enough.

[Joe Pesci]

Pretty decent WM, but man it was too long of a show. AJ/Shane was the match of the night imo.

[GrimTuesday]

9 minutes ago, Joe Pesci said:

Pretty decent WM, but man it was too long of a show. AJ/Shane was the match of the night imo.

It was too long, and at the same time, way too short. The fact that they did a 20 minute concert in the middle of it didn't help. It's like they just kind of went, ok, now we're gonna fast forward to the property dispute between a geriatric zombie and Da Big Dawg. And I don't know what they were thinking having Roman retire Taker and not turn him heel. People are already booing him, and Taker doing the job does make the situation any better, in fact, it's only gonna cause more resentment.

[SerPaladin]

I went into WM expecting little, but it over-delivered, particularly story-wise. I'll spoiler my impressions, even though I try not to get too specific.

Spoiler

Everyone has hated how Roman Reigns has been booked (just about forever), but the main event with Undertaker was perfect storytelling. Merely average wrestling, which you have to expect from UT at this stage of his life and injuries, but good, classic match. UT does the right thing for Kayfabe, which Mark Calloway always has done.

Smackdown Women's championship. I thought we might get a couple nostalgia surprises, or an Asuka call-up. Other than that, decent match, if rushed. This division needs a top talent, Raw has at least 3, and the interesting Nia Jax in the monster heel role.

Lesner vs. Goldberg. Thank you Bill for your nostalgia run. Ended the right way, moving on...

Orton going over Wyatt better lead to something nasty in upcoming weeks. Sister Abigail. Brother Bo. A new level. This was the match I was most unhappy with.

Owens Jericho was great, everything I wanted out of the match. I'm a longtime Jericho mark, it was a great build-up, and well done at Mania.

Bayley winning was surprising, the Hardy Boys return was masterfully done, and AJ's match was actually a good wrestling match. I don't think I cared much about the rest, but the way both Strowman and Corbin were handled seemed to be off. If you want to make monster heels, just make them. Don't have Strowman get punked out of the battle royale with cheese.

I am a little mad at myself for not seeing the Hardy Boys return in the mix when the Raw tag teams started getting frisky with ladders last week. Only Cesaro and Seamus have any ladder history, but it was the Club that involved them. Huge hint, and I missed it.

 

[SerPaladin]

21 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

It was too long, and at the same time, way too short. The fact that they did a 20 minute concert in the middle of it didn't help. It's like they just kind of went, ok, now we're gonna fast forward to the property dispute between a geriatric zombie and Da Big Dawg. And I don't know what they were thinking having Roman retire Taker and not turn him heel. People are already booing him, and Taker doing the job does make the situation any better, in fact, it's only gonna cause more resentment.

Roman is the new Cena. Can't send a heel to the Make-a-Wish kids. It's been over a decade of Cena getting the same rap that Reigns is getting now. The new model requires one "protected" face. I was hoping that with Reigns moving into the role, they might let Cena have a little Hollywood Hogan heel run. But not after that proposal. Not gonna happen.

[briantw]

Sad to see Taker, one of the best of all-time, go out in such a godawful, plodding match.  You see Michaels and Flair go out in classics and Taker gets this?  Although, to be fair, it's at least partially his own fault.  He should have called it a career after taking the loss to Lesnar, or maybe had one final duel with Kane that ended with a double retirement at the following 'Mania after the Lesnar loss.  Anything but this, really.

Neville/Aries was a very good match.  I don't think it was quite as good as last month's Neville/Gallagher, but at least the cruiserweight division is on a multi-month streak of delivering quality PPV matches.

Styles/McMahon was good as well, although I think Shane got way too much offense in.  Still, he held his own in the ring surprisingly, although given how bad his match with Taker was last year, maybe a lot of that was Styles just carrying him.

Owens/Jericho I felt was exactly what it needed to be.  You had two guys who knew each other well and continually countered the other's best shots.  Both guys came out of that match looking like a million bucks.  Jericho weathered everything Owens had, and it finally took a powerbomb on the apron to finish him off.  Owens kept himself alive in true heel fashion with a single finger on the ropes after the Codebreaker (which was also a nice callback to the painting Jericho had commissioned for the Festival of Friendship).  Definitely the best pure wrestling match on the entire card, and probably the best overall match.

They've just botched the Raw women's division so much that it's hard to care at this point, especially coming off that incredible Asuka/Ember match at Takeover.  Why they had Charlotte drop the title and end her PPV winning streak a month before 'Mania is just baffling to me, and why they didn't give Bayley her Wrestlemania moment by having her win the title there is equally baffling.  And adding Nia to the match just seemed like an easy way to make it less interesting.

Kind of crazy that, in the past two months, the Hardys have been TNA, ROH, and WWE tag champs.  Equally crazy that they agreed to do another ladder match a night after they destroyed themselves in that great ROH ladder match against the Young Bucks.  I'm just hoping this leads to the WWE actually giving a shit about the tag division, because the divisions on both Raw and Smackdown have been total afterthoughts for ages now.  I also really hope the Hardys delete Enzo and Cass, because I am fucking sick of them.  It'll be a real shame if we don't get Hardys/Revival and/or Hardys/DIY at some point.

Loved the crowd doing the "you suck" chant for Angle, by the way.  You could tell he loved it too.  Really hope we get a couple of great Angle matches out of his return.  Angle/Nakamura, Angle/Owens, Angle/Zayn...hell, another Angle/Styles match would be welcome too.

Lesnar/Goldberg was somehow surprisingly good.  Sad that it was probably the best match of Goldberg's career too.  They didn't overstay their welcome and just kept moving at top speed the entire time.  Good booking saved what should have been a disaster of a match.  Shocking that the same people who booked this one booked the godawful and overlong Taker/Reigns.

[SerPaladin]

So a "shakeup" is coming? Lets have some fun with it, shall we?

I'll start with the other divisions, and finish with the heavyweights in a second post.

SD Women's division needs an alpha competitor (or two), and Raw needs some depth/ jobbers. Look for Smackdown to get at least two of Bayley, Charlotte, or Asuka. Nia Jax and Banks will stay on Raw. Any other movement will be to balance the numbers.

Raw's tag division is top heavy, and Smackdown's is nearly non-existent. I think they are setting up the Hardys and the Club as 2 of the three for another go-round of Hardys/ Dudleys/ Edge&Christian. To do that, they need athletes, and Cesaro and Seamus are more than capable of being that third team. Look for Enzo and Cass to get moved to Tuesday. Something is up with New Day, as well, they seem to have run out of stories on Raw, and might be headed for a Big E singles push. For the team that defined the division for a year, they are the suddenly the least consequential in where they land. But I would guess SD. (flaw in this plan? moving two of the talky-teams to SD drains a lot of charisma from the division. I think that helps the Club particularly, they can be funny on their own, funny villains, but were getting outshone by Enzo and Xavier)

A couple or more of the SD tag teams need a change of scenery. American Alpha going to Raw to interact with Angle seems like a good... angle. They have the athleticism to hang with the Hardys, Club, etc. And send along any of the rest of the flotsam (Ascension, Vaudevillains, Rhyno) to job on Mondays.

What did I miss? Cruiserweights? Move Callisto to Raw's Cruiser division, and to 205 Live.

[SerPaladin]

So, let's talk about the singles wrestlers. It may have looked like SD was "winning" the tag and women's transactions above, but that's because they are going to get raided here.

I've got Enzo and Cass moving to SD for a second reason. Cass and Corbin are two sides of the same coin, and if they want to get Cass moving on a singles career (which they do), he has a better shot of it on SD than if he stays on Raw with Strowman, Reigns, Lesnar eclipsing him. SD helps Cass. It also helps Big E if he breaks away into snigles.

So that leaves the Hoss full timers division with Reigns and Strowman on Raw, and Cass, Rusev and Corbin on SD.

AJ Styles is going to RAW. Getting "fired" a couple weeks ago sets it up for kayfabe, and the fact that he has exceeded the rest of the SD roster and is a huge draw are the real reasons. It makes sense. It also opens up storylines for interactions with his boys in the Club, and even with Balor.

Ambrose is also going to Raw. It teases the Shield reunion, and counter-balances whatever Triple H is building around Samoa Joe and Owens.

Man, I can't get this balanced at all. Rusev is mis-used on Raw, but it's hard to send him to SD where the top stable is a rebuilt heel Wyatt family. Would have to make him a face. Oh, SD gets Bo Dallas, to become Bo Wyatt.

I think SD needs to get Finn Balor for this to work.

Raw Singles:

Faces: Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose (Shield), Sami, jobbers

Heels: Styles (Club), Joe, Owens (Nu Horsemen), Strowman, jobbers

Part Timers: Lesnar, Big Show, Mark Henry

SD Singles:

Faces: Orton, Balor, Nakamura, Rusev, Luke Harper (?), Mojo Rawley, jobbers

Heels: Bray, Rowan, Bo (Wyatt Family), Miz, Ziggler, Corbin, jobbers

Part Timers: Cena

[briantw]

4 hours ago, SerPaladin said:

So a "shakeup" is coming? Lets have some fun with it, shall we?

I'll start with the other divisions, and finish with the heavyweights in a second post.

SD Women's division needs an alpha competitor (or two), and Raw needs some depth/ jobbers. Look for Smackdown to get at least two of Bayley, Charlotte, or Asuka. Nia Jax and Banks will stay on Raw. Any other movement will be to balance the numbers.

Raw's tag division is top heavy, and Smackdown's is nearly non-existent. I think they are setting up the Hardys and the Club as 2 of the three for another go-round of Hardys/ Dudleys/ Edge&Christian. To do that, they need athletes, and Cesaro and Seamus are more than capable of being that third team. Look for Enzo and Cass to get moved to Tuesday. Something is up with New Day, as well, they seem to have run out of stories on Raw, and might be headed for a Big E singles push. For the team that defined the division for a year, they are the suddenly the least consequential in where they land. But I would guess SD. (flaw in this plan? moving two of the talky-teams to SD drains a lot of charisma from the division. I think that helps the Club particularly, they can be funny on their own, funny villains, but were getting outshone by Enzo and Xavier)

A couple or more of the SD tag teams need a change of scenery. American Alpha going to Raw to interact with Angle seems like a good... angle. They have the athleticism to hang with the Hardys, Club, etc. And send along any of the rest of the flotsam (Ascension, Vaudevillains, Rhyno) to job on Mondays.

What did I miss? Cruiserweights? Move Callisto to Raw's Cruiser division, and to 205 Live.

Personally, I think that Gallows & Anderson are Smackdown bound.  They lost their rematch clean to the Hardys, and Cesaro & Sheamus look to be the next competitors for the tag titles.  They would also add a much-needed quality heel team to a dead in the water Smackdown tag division.  I'd say you're right and New Day moves on as well.  I think the new trio of tag teams on Raw are the Hardys, the Revival, and Cesaro & Sheamus..  I could see those three teams putting on a couple of four to five star PPV matches together.  The Revival are arguably the best big match tag team in the world, Cesaro is insanely talented, and the Hardys have spent the past few year proving they've still got it.

I think Charlotte is definitely gone as well.  She ate the pin in the women's match last night, they brought back Emma after months of teasing her return, and the women's division seems to be heading to a Bayley/Sasha showdown later this year.  Also, weren't Sasha and Emma a heel team in NXT?  Maybe they reunite after Sasha turns?

Asuka isn't getting called up yet either I don't think.  They just had her retain the NXT women's title and I'd wager she's got another date with Ember Moon at the next Takeover.  I'd say she's a more realistic post-Summerslam call up.  And given that NXT signed Kairi Hojo and may also be signing Io Shirai (two of the most talented female wrestlers in the world, with Io being generally regarded as the absolute best), they may be keeping Asuka around to help both of them transition to life in the US.

As far as the cruisers go, I tend to think the only move will be Andrade Almas to Raw and 205 Live.  Rumors are that he is getting called up, and I think 205 Live would be the right destination for him, as that show could really use another good heel.  Right now it's basically just Neville and not much else.  

[briantw]

Strowman destroying Reigns while the crowd chanted "you deserve it" was amazing.  Braun flipping the ambulance over afterward was fucking hilarious.

[GrimTuesday]

Well, Smackdown got abslutely raided. Losing Bray, Ambrose, Miz & Marise, Bliss, and Nikki James is a ravaging not seen since the last time the Mongol hoard got bored. Honestly, not really feeling like watching any of the WWE products Raw is 3 hours long, and if I'm gonna spend three hours watching one program, it's gonna be a baseball game, and Smackdown is getting pillaged, and without a few major names, will be basically AJ and a wasteland. Seriously, Orton and AJ are the only main event talent on the SD roster. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[briantw]

2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Well, Smackdown got abslutely raided. Losing Bray, Ambrose, Miz & Marise, Bliss, and Nikki James is a ravaging not seen since the last time the Mongol hoard got bored. Honestly, not really feeling like watching any of the WWE products Raw is 3 hours long, and if I'm gonna spend three hours watching one program, it's gonna be a baseball game, and Smackdown is getting pillaged, and without a few major names, will be basically AJ and a wasteland. Seriously, Orton and AJ are the only main event talent on the SD roster. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Smackdown is likely getting Owens, Charlotte, Gallows/Anderson, New Day, and probably (once he's back) Rusev.  They also added Nakamura and Dillinger via NXT, and may be adding Andrade Almas as well given the rumors that he's being called up.  Zayn may be heading that way as well, and there's a shot Balor may be on the move too.

Either way, I'll take Owens and Nakamura over Bray and Ambrose any day of the week.  If Zayn replaces Miz, that's more than fair.  Miz is better on the mic, but Zayn is better in the ring.  And I'd imagine Charlotte and Emma will replace Bliss and James.  If Smackdown gets Almas too, that's a bonus. 

[Joe Pesci]

4 hours ago, briantw said:

Smackdown is likely getting Owens, Charlotte, Gallows/Anderson, New Day, and probably (once he's back) Rusev.  They also added Nakamura and Dillinger via NXT, and may be adding Andrade Almas as well given the rumors that he's being called up.  Zayn may be heading that way as well, and there's a shot Balor may be on the move too.

Either way, I'll take Owens and Nakamura over Bray and Ambrose any day of the week.  If Zayn replaces Miz, that's more than fair.  Miz is better on the mic, but Zayn is better in the ring.  And I'd imagine Charlotte and Emma will replace Bliss and James.  If Smackdown gets Almas too, that's a bonus. 

Your list is spot on, and everyone on it took a clean loss last night too, kinda wish it wasn't so obvious as to who was on the move now though. Strowman is one I think would be a great surprise move as they kept saying how he was looking to end things with Reigns last night and he seemingly did in an Attitude Era-esque beatdown, but the obvious monster matchup they can go to with him and Lesnar is probably too big to pass up on Raw. Hopefully they kept one or two surprises for tonight.

[SerPaladin]

5 hours ago, briantw said:

Smackdown is likely getting Owens, Charlotte, Gallows/Anderson, New Day, and probably (once he's back) Rusev.  They also added Nakamura and Dillinger via NXT, and may be adding Andrade Almas as well given the rumors that he's being called up.  Zayn may be heading that way as well, and there's a shot Balor may be on the move too.

If Owens goes, I'd expect Joe to go too. He's got no serious program on Raw, and Triple H seemed to be building a stable out of Joe and Owens. And Jericho might follow Owens for a cup of coffee and a blowoff PPV match. And if the Jericho thing is not happening, I wouldn't be surprised to see Owens vs Ambrose at a PPV where the loser leaves Raw

Balor, Gallows and Anderson joining AJ on Smackdown might be interesting. AJ moved in the direction of being a face after WM, Balor is a de facto face, but the allure of the Club might be too much. Charlotte will go to SD, along with one other women's wrestler. Probably Emma.

So Raw got potential main eventers: Ambrose, Wyatt, Miz, and arguably Alexa Bliss. That is hardly a "raid", even though I have thoroughly enjoyed Miz and Ambrose since the split. Raw got "upside" midcarders: Mickie James, Apollo Crews, and arguably the Drifter. The rest of the pickups are jobbers/ role-players.

On the "rumored to be happening" scorecard, I think SD will come out on top, or at least a wash

Owens > Miz

Samoa Joe > Wyatt

Rusev < Ambrose (unless it's Balor moving instead)

Random Midcarder > Apollo Crews

Random Jobber > Curtis Hawkins

Charlotte > Bliss

Emma < Mickie James

Club > Slater & Rhyno

Enzo & Cass (or New Day) > Kallisto

[SerPaladin]

So you end up with a Smackdown Main Event scene that looks like this:

Faces: Orton (c), Nakamura, Styles (tweener), Luke Harper, Cena (part time), Cass or Big E (singles push)

Heels: Styles (tweener), Owens, Joe, Corbin, Rusev, Ziggler

That's plenty to work with. I don't see Aidan English or Mojo Rawley's singles pushes getting them above the mid-card. Dillinger and Kane will be in the midcard. I don't know what they do with Erick Rowan now that Bray is gone, but he's another big body who can do the job for the faces.

I was thinking that SD needed Cesaro, but Harper has looked like a strong and acrobatic guy in recent weeks. I think he can fill that role. Someone will have to carry Corbin through his matches and make him look intimidating.

[briantw]

2 hours ago, SerPaladin said:

If Owens goes, I'd expect Joe to go too. He's got no serious program on Raw, and Triple H seemed to be building a stable out of Joe and Owens. And Jericho might follow Owens for a cup of coffee and a blowoff PPV match. And if the Jericho thing is not happening, I wouldn't be surprised to see Owens vs Ambrose at a PPV where the loser leaves Raw

Seems like a Rollins/Joe program was in the works based on last night and last week.  They faced each other in a tag match last week, and Joe hit Rollins with a surprise attack last night after Rollins said they had unfinished business.  

As for Jericho, I think he stays on Raw but they still have the US title match at the next Raw PPV since it is already booked.  If Jericho wins, he takes the title back to Raw.  If Owens wins, the title stays with him on Smackdown.  They're doing a similar thing with the Orton/Wyatt rematch, which will take place on a Raw PPV now that Wyatt is heading there.

[SerPaladin]

Well, a few guys that I thought would move... didn't. Here's how it shook out:

Headliners: Owens > Miz;  Zayn = Ambrose;  Rusev < Wyatt

Top of the card seems to be a wash. Smackdown got better wrestlers, but mic skills took a hit.

Women: Charlotte > Bliss;  Tamina < Mickie James

While the women's division was one win, one loss, Charlotte is a game changer, and the SD women's division as a whole is much better after the shake-up.

Tag: New Day (and the Shining Stars) > Slater & Rhyno

New Day brings compelling characters to the tag division, which SD lacked. Shining Stars will fill a heel jobber role, but they are better technical wrestlers than the Vaudevillains, Ascension, and Fashion Police. They will make American Alpha look good in weeks that they aren't wrestling the Usos.

Undercard: Jinder Mahal > Curtis Hawkins; Sin Cara = Kallisto; Apollo Crews

I think Big E is getting an eventual singles push, and he's better than Crews. Cara for Kallisto is a wash, and Jinder is a big muscular jobber who fights stiff, at least he will be better used on SD.

Other moves: Nakamura angle, Styles as tweener, Aiden English push, Mojo Rawley push

I hope that Vince is just milking the Gronkowski connection with Mojo. Rawley's potential is no higher than jobber/ 2nd tier tag team member. I like the Aiden English re-packaging. Annoying pretentious heels that get their ass kicked are a time-worn trope in wrestling. Let's hope he executes it. Styles is a de facto face, despite heelish tendencies. He won't be a full heel again until he faces Nakamura, and that won't be any earlier than Summer Slam.

Ziggler is a perfect wrestler to feed to Nakamura. He will effectively sell Nakamura's Strong Style, and establish (for the casual fans) why Nakamura is a main eventer. And Ziggler's character has been so vanilla for so long, Nakamura's near-wordless charisma works well. Better than starting him off against an Ambrose or Owens or Miz or Styles, who might outshine him on the mic. And please, keep Cena far away from him, we don't need another Cena character assassination like he's done to Styles and Miz. The "Cena Promo" preceding a PPV match is just terrible for the believability of the other wrestler.

[briantw]

3 hours ago, SerPaladin said:

Well, a few guys that I thought would move... didn't. Here's how it shook out:

Headliners: Owens > Miz;  Zayn = Ambrose;  Rusev < Wyatt

Top of the card seems to be a wash. Smackdown got better wrestlers, but mic skills took a hit.

I'd say Zayn >>>>>> Ambrose.  Ambrose is dog shit in the ring.  He's funny, but his brand of dumb comedy doesn't really fit his character at all.  I'd rank Zayn as the second best worker in the company behind Styles, and Owens is probably top five as well.  I can't wait for the potential Owens/Styles feud.  As far as I know, they've only faced once in singles action since they both joined the WWE, and that match was fantastic.  I can only imagine they'd deliver something even better in a PPV match.

[SerPaladin]

17 hours ago, briantw said:

I'd say Zayn >>>>>> Ambrose.  Ambrose is dog shit in the ring.  He's funny, but his brand of dumb comedy doesn't really fit his character at all.  I'd rank Zayn as the second best worker in the company behind Styles, and Owens is probably top five as well.  I can't wait for the potential Owens/Styles feud.  As far as I know, they've only faced once in singles action since they both joined the WWE, and that match was fantastic.  I can only imagine they'd deliver something even better in a PPV match.

I personally agree. But as a dad of a pair young teen sons, and an uncle of two boys age 5 and 7, I'm the only one that likes Sami. My boys also couldn't figure out why I liked Punk a few years ago, though they are learning to appreciate the art of making an arena full of marks hate you as a heel.

Ambrose is a less mean Piper. He can drive plot in the ring, backstage, or in his talk show. He's funny on the mic and unpredictable in general, but effective in stirring the pot. I cringe every time he does his "wacky" rope bounce, because it breaks believability, but (most of) the rest of his move-set looks damaging and intentionally painful, and he can sell. I'd like him better if he had Cesaro's move-set, just to name a guy who is his size.

"In the Ring" is not the only criteria, if it was, Cesaro would have Reign's push. For objective value, Zayn and Ambrose are upper midcarders, one is much better in the ring, one is much better on the mic (and moves merch). Smarks like us don't buy as many t-shirts as little kids. I got my nephew the Owens and Zayn toys for Christmas, and I had to explain who Zayn was in relation to Owens. He still would have preferred Cena.