How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

[Voice of the First Men]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Voice of the First Men The text does describe the Dawn meteorite - in TWOIAF, it describes it as a pale stone of magical powers. 

Citation?

[Voice of the First Men]

Found it @LmL

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

We shall not attempt to speak of all of these. Most ruled over domains so small, or conquests so short-lived, that they are scarce worthy of note. A few of the greatest do warrant mention, however: those whose lines put down deep roots and endured for thousands of years to come.

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

[Voice of the First Men]

I know you will forgive me,@LmL if I point out that this:

Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.

Sounds a lot like this:

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Voice of the First Men said:

I know you will forgive me,@LmL if I point out that this:

Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.

Sounds a lot like this:

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

Oh you won't get any argument from me that any one thing might be symbolic. That should always be considered. I'm quite open minded on just what is being referenced here, or possibly multiple things as is often the case. I was merely pointing out the reference, which you pulled. 

[Voice of the First Men]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh you won't get any argument from me that any one thing might be symbolic. That should always be considered. I'm quite open minded on just what is being referenced here, or possibly multiple things as is often the case. I was merely pointing out the reference, which you pulled. 

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Thank you to both voice and lml for your responses. I understood the implication that these events must have taken place long ago. While the passages you quoted are full of information,  the answers to my questions are still danced around. We know the new ice is 400 years old. We know the house Dayne is about as old as history goes, similar to the starks. I remember that dawn was mentioned as the most famous attribute to the house but we don't know for certain that the sword has been with the house that long. Dawn is described similar to the others sword we see. If Dawn were the original Ice then it would stand to reason that Ice was recovered from an other during g battle.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up but perhaps Stark and Dayne are very distantly related going back to the age of heroes. I haven't seen this mentioned in a while but I remember once seeing a theory that the Starks weren't first men but rather a sort of "proto-valyrian". Perhaps the only reason we get our description of Valyria features the way we know them,  silver hair and purple eyes, because they're features reflect their environment. Perhaps 8000 years of living in the north left the Starks with their notably dark hair and grey eyes while the Daynes environment left them closer in resemblance to their essosi counterparts. 

 

For Ned to have returned Dawn and hold a foe in such high regard as he did Arthur, I think a distant relationship between the families quite plausible, he there the in universe is aware or not. 

The only point I meant with my original question is that if Dayne was founded with Dawn already in their possesion, that means that it took some thousands of years before Starks replaced their ancestral sword. Perhaps that is simply due to that being when Valyrian steel became available but that seems like an awfully long wait.

[LmL]

I think the logical reason cola at in is that here was a famous original Ice, and since then a long line of swords always named ice. The current one is Valyrian steel simply because that's the best sword technology currently available. It's likely we've had iron and bronze versions of Ice as well. Perhaps a wooden sword, who knows. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

I think the logical reason cola at in is that here was a famous original Ice, and since then a long line of swords always named ice. The current one is Valyrian steel simply because that's the best sword technology currently available. It's likely we've had iron and bronze versions of Ice as well. Perhaps a wooden sword, who knows. 

Especially considering the iron swords in the crypts seem like they're supposed to represent Ice. Which to me says "Ice" was an iron sword for at least some amount of time.

 

ETA: Hey look we agreed on two things in one day, lol.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

I think the logical reason cola at in is that here was a famous original Ice, and since then a long line of swords always named ice. The current one is Valyrian steel simply because that's the best sword technology currently available. It's likely we've had iron and bronze versions of Ice as well. Perhaps a wooden sword, who knows. 

I hadn't considered that the current, or most recent ice as it is no longer in tact, sword wasn't just the second ice. It seems to me that it cheapens the loss of the current, though perhaps that would be for the best seeing as it meet an unfortunate fate.

I'll buy this theory. I kinda hope that they are the same weapon recovered in battle from an other, though I don't know if that's possible based on what we've seen of the others weapons and what happens when its bearer is slain.

 

Houses Stark and Dayne are both very interesting and I hope there is some hidden link.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

12 hours ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

I hadn't considered that the current, or most recent ice as it is no longer in tact, sword wasn't just the second ice. It seems to me that it cheapens the loss of the current, though perhaps that would be for the best seeing as it meet an unfortunate fate.

I'll buy this theory. I kinda hope that they are the same weapon recovered in battle from an other, though I don't know if that's possible based on what we've seen of the others weapons and what happens when its bearer is slain.

 

Houses Stark and Dayne are both very interesting and I hope there is some hidden link.

To me it seems like the emotional weight of having your family sword taken and effectively destroyed is still very heavy, even if it is one Ice in a long line of Ices and has "only" been in the family for 400 years. That's still the only Ice the Stark kids have ever known.

Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote:

Quote

“This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know. Pretty good.”

― Terry Pratchett, The Fifth Elephant

 

Ice has been a Stark sword for a thousand years...first it was made of some icy substance, then maybe of bronze, then of iron, and now of Valyrian steel...but was it not the ancestral sword of the Starks?

 

Hard to guess all the details, but I feel confident Dayne and Stark have a shared history way back when.

[LmL]

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady

[Voice of the First Men]

On 2/17/2016 at 8:21 AM, Trogdor Targaryen said:

Thank you to both voice and lml for your responses. I understood the implication that these events must have taken place long ago. While the passages you quoted are full of information,  the answers to my questions are still danced around. We know the new ice is 400 years old. We know the house Dayne is about as old as history goes, similar to the starks. I remember that dawn was mentioned as the most famous attribute to the house but we don't know for certain that the sword has been with the house that long. Dawn is described similar to the others sword we see. If Dawn were the original Ice then it would stand to reason that Ice was recovered from an other during g battle.

Yup. Did not mean to dance around your question. That is a necessary evil when discussing GRRM's works, unfortunately. He paints with a brush dripping in ambiguity and narrative illusionism. He makes certainty into folly, and so all comments and theories must be hedged more than a bit.

Quote

I'm not sure if this has been brought up but perhaps Stark and Dayne are very distantly related going back to the age of heroes. I haven't seen this mentioned in a while but I remember once seeing a theory that the Starks weren't first men but rather a sort of "proto-valyrian". Perhaps the only reason we get our description of Valyria features the way we know them,  silver hair and purple eyes, because they're features reflect their environment. Perhaps 8000 years of living in the north left the Starks with their notably dark hair and grey eyes while the Daynes environment left them closer in resemblance to their essosi counterparts. 

For Ned to have returned Dawn and hold a foe in such high regard as he did Arthur, I think a distant relationship between the families quite plausible, he there the in universe is aware or not. 

This is actually the very sort of speculation I hoped my theory would raise.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

 

There are many kinds of "brothers" in the series. Jon is Samwell's "brother". Jon is Robb's "brother". Jon is Edric Dayne's "milkbrother".

With this theory, I am actually proposing that Houses Stark and Dayne are Brother Houses - united by duty and origin, if not by blood - though Blood should not be discounted.

Quote

The only point I meant with my original question is that if Dayne was founded with Dawn already in their possesion, that means that it took some thousands of years before Starks replaced their ancestral sword. Perhaps that is simply due to that being when Valyrian steel became available but that seems like an awfully long wait.

Well, as others have proposed, we don't know how many replacements for Age of Heroes "Ice" there have been. There might've been hundreds, or even thousands. But, what we do know for certain is that the name "Ice" dates to the Age of Heroes, and that there happens to be a lot of respect and deference between Houses Stark and Dayne. The latter of which happens to have a Sword that looks more like frozen water than any other south of the Wall. And Ned Stark just happens to have once held this blade, before relinquishing it to House Dayne. It seems history repeats itself.

15 hours ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

I hadn't considered that the current, or most recent ice as it is no longer in tact, sword wasn't just the second ice. It seems to me that it cheapens the loss of the current, though perhaps that would be for the best seeing as it meet an unfortunate fate.

I'll buy this theory. I kinda hope that they are the same weapon recovered in battle from an other, though I don't know if that's possible based on what we've seen of the others weapons and what happens when its bearer is slain.

Houses Stark and Dayne are both very interesting and I hope there is some hidden link.

The Night's King was never slain.

He was "brought down", nothing more. Small Paul once "brought down" an Other, and disarmed him. Imagine if instead of stabbing him in the neck with dragonglass, what would have happened if Samwell picked up the sword and made him yield?

Would the sword have melted if the Other did not? I do not think it would... I would bring your attention again to the following passage:

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.
 

 

On 2/17/2016 at 11:02 AM, LmL said:

I think the logical reason cola at in is that here was a famous original Ice, and since then a long line of swords always named ice. The current one is Valyrian steel simply because that's the best sword technology currently available. It's likely we've had iron and bronze versions of Ice as well. Perhaps a wooden sword, who knows. 

I'd agree. Though I would argue "Ice" seems like a bit of a misnomer from the Age of Heroes if the blade was not icy in appearance.

One must also wonder why Ned's sword is so absurdly large compared to other VS blades. I would argue that it is an imitation of the length of the Others' "longswords". The Others are tall, and gaunt, and their blades are too. House Stark might have had some similar extra long needles over the years, made of any material. After all, they are literally compensating for something.

[Voice of the First Men]

2 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

To me it seems like the emotional weight of having your family sword taken and effectively destroyed is still very heavy, even if it is one Ice in a long line of Ices and has "only" been in the family for 400 years. That's still the only Ice the Stark kids have ever known.

Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote:

Nice.

2 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Ice has been a Stark sword for a thousand years...first it was made of some icy substance, then maybe of bronze, then of iron, and now of Valyrian steel...but was it not the ancestral sword of the Starks?

And just look at the grim manner in which that "ancestral sword" is wielded. I would argue the reason the name has been handed down - while the sword was not - is because Ice represents the burden of past regrets. Something GRRM created an entire character to symbolize in Eddard Stark. (Notably, Ned was killed by "his brother's" "son"... the original plan was to exile him to the North... many echoes of Night's King there.)

2 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Hard to guess all the details, but I feel confident Dayne and Stark have a shared history way back when.

[Dorian Martell]

On 2/7/2016 at 2:08 PM, Voice of the First Men said:

Forgive me an almost-lazy parry...but this an easy one.

The Night's Watch predates the Wall.

I'm saying the Long Night began in the Age of Heroes. Thus, the reason they had to become heroes.

 

As you too are mourning the loss of the coach that was promised in San Francisco, I will cut you some slack Dorian.

Re: Split personality disorder, it does sound rather fan ficky, but isn't exactly unsupported by canon. What do I mean by that? Well, we have GRRM's fondness of hearts in conflict with themselves. We have Arya becoming Squab and Arry, No one, Cat of the Canals, the blind girl, the ugly girl, and now, Mercy. We also have Theon (Durden?) going through his transformation as "The Prince of Winterfell" then "The Ghost of Winterfell" and the "Turncloak"... not to mention his persona being split apart, then reforged, then split apart again, and reforged again as he becomes Ned Stark's Ward (carrying Ned's version of Ice in Bran I, btw...), then reclaiming his mantle as Balon's Son, then becoming Reek, then becoming Theon Greyjoy at Deepwood Motte, then becoming Ramsay's Reek once more....then coming full circle and re-emerging as Theon, ward of Eddard Stark to rescue Jeyne Poole.

I mean to suggest that such a transformation has been hinted at for the Night's King as well. Because, well, the text tells us it happened:

Bran IV ASOS:

Does this not sound like a transformation of a man who knew no fear (and therefore, by Ned's definition, was never brave)? If you give a corpse woman your soul, might that affect your personality a bit?

The tale continues:

Considering he was once leading his men in a natural way, and then chose to lead them with sorcery, I'd say this too hints that he had a change of heart...

Why all the past tense Old Nan? Did he change Houses?

This one brings it home, Doran.

He was only a man by light of day. Not an Other. Not a white walker. Not a wight. A man.

But... the night was his to rule. And that Night was Long.

 

We know that Ned's sword is not the Original Ice. Read the following passage carefully:

Cat I AGOT:

Thus, the original Ice was lost in the Age of Heroes. Ned carries a namesake of that blade that is made of dark Valyrian Steel. I think the name "Ice" would be more fitting for a milkier blade.

Now, who have we seen in the story with a sword like that?

Very cool idea. I like it.

"Winter is Coming" ...that is your missing tale, my friend. The Starks know, or knew, at least, that Winter has a face, eyes like stars, and once had a sword of Ice. Not coincidentally, they agree it should be kept as far south as possible in the hands of House Dayne.

He has Jorah Mormont's sword, and he knows it. He feels it. It feels wrong in his hand. He dreams of another. His sword hand is always opening and closing. He wants his father's sword, not Longclaw.

As far as the why goes, that should be easy to see. Jon is at the brink of the Long Night 2.0.

How does one end a night? Dawn.

As far as the how, there's no tellin. It's a fantasy series. We'll have to wait and see.

If I am allowed to speculate, I would like to see Arya give him a sword from his father's castle (Starfall), the same way he gave Arya Needle, from her father's forge.

Well, Dorne is the province with red sands, red mountains, red wine, and sigils that bear Suns (see House Martell ) ... not Valyria. There's Fire, and then there's dracaerys. They are two different things. Jon is the scion of Westeros (the weirwood colored wolf proves it), not Old Valyria.

A white direwolf, with eyes like a weirwood's eyes. Snow and Blood. Ice and Fire. No dragon...

1: The Watch predating the wall? not sure where you get this one. I would say that the watch could have arisen from a disparate number of folks who held out against the others, but they wouldn't be "the watch" as it is now  At least that is where I get the "We are the watchers on the walls" bit.  

2:  Multiple personality disorder is a specific medical condition. The only person who I have seen that in the books is Theon, and most of it is not really split personality, but an identity crisis that came out of his fostering/imprisonment and later his torture and imprisonment.  Unless of course, Theon Durden is shown to be fact. Then he will truly have the disorder from his PTSD
the Night's King could just be an evil guy allied with the vestiges of the other's army, but again. we don't know. We only have a description of his transformation, which happens all the time without a psychological disorder. We see Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Sam and almost every POV transform over the course of the books. 
Lastly, unless something is revealed through a Bran POV looking back in time thing, The watch was formed  either after the long night and after the wall was built, or maybe at the end of the long night before the battle for the dawn, and then they built the wall.  Why would there be a watch, with 12 other Lord Commanders, before there was a wall or before the others came? That is the big timeline rub. How can he be the 13th lord commander of an organization created to watch out for an enemy that has not revealed themselves to humanity yet? No enemy=No Watch= No LC 1, much less an LC 13 

3: Thank you for finding my unsubstantiated theory cool. 

4: Of Dawn being Ice, the only way I can think it will work is along the lines of my pet theory, in that the last hero (bran the builder?) divided his possessions up among his children or close relatives and sent the weapons and arms elsewhere.  Then again, being unsupported by any text, Dawn being forged by a founder of House Dayne is the logical conclusion 

5: As for Jon getting Dawn, while I don't see it as impossible, it just seems highly improbable from what has been revealed in the books so far. Either he travels to dorne, or someone brings it to him, after finding out that a bastard son of ned stark is actually a Dayne or someone figures out that Dawn is Ice somehow. Again, all very unlikely, but then again, this is GRRM

6: And lastly, Again, the song of ice and fire. Although the Daynes are Dornish, we do not know their words. Since the Targs words are literally fire and blood, this makes far more sense than a song of Ice and shooting stars. And yes, dorne is synonymous with heat, the daynes are not.  Also, fire is fire. If the Daynes have some form of heat in their words then maybe, but being a son of a targ does not make Jon any less of a scion of Westeros. They ruled westeros for almost 300 years.  His wolf just proves his connection to the north and the first men. If the books were written on time, there wouldn't have been enough time to pick out all the little details about Jon, and the reveal of him being Rhaegar's son would have a ton more weight. As of now, we are going to get that reveal on the show. 

[Dorian Martell]

On 2/7/2016 at 2:14 PM, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

This forum needs a like button. Great post as always, Doran.

Solid read though, TS. Thanks for posting.

You're welcome 

[Dorian Martell]

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, RobOsevens said:

Dorian, Do you have the source where GRRM said this? I can't find it anywhere

I do not know where I read it. I have found on here is  a number of bits from Ran about the Dayne words and how G.R.R.M doesn't like them. 

[White Ravens]

On 2/16/2016 at 3:05 PM, Voice of the First Men said:

No description of a meteorite is ever given in the text. What is, is below, and we know not all Stars in ASOIAF are found in the sky. (See the Others, Symeon Star Eyes, Night's King and his queen.)

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

 

----------

 

Now, compare that "forging" to the Other's blade in the prologue:

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I was on vacation and off the grid for a few days.  I struggle with these metaphorical conversations a bit.  Maybe I lack poetry or something.  Maybe GRRM never uses the word meteorite when referring to Dawn, but a fallen star is a meteorite.  Not very poetic, I know, but there it is.  Dawn is described as unusual and pale as milk glass, but I still get the sense that it appears as a forged metal blade.  By contrast the blade wielded by the Other is described as ethereal and unlike a metal blade. 

[Voice]

13 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I was on vacation and off the grid for a few days.  I struggle with these metaphorical conversations a bit.  Maybe I lack poetry or something.  Maybe GRRM never uses the word meteorite when referring to Dawn, but a fallen star is a meteorite.  Not very poetic, I know, but there it is. 

LOL It's okay. I agree with you - in terms of the real world. But in this universe, we have no meteorites, only fallen stars. And in this universe, there are stars and Stars. Some stay in the sky. Some wake in the eyes of the dead. Some stare coldly from inhuman forms of life.

In this series, with passages like these:

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once."

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart."

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged. He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight. Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth.

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Yes, thought Bran, but it's blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

 

/quotes

...We cannot discount the anthropomorphication of stars - and their faults and felling.

 

13 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Dawn is described as unusual and pale as milk glass, but I still get the sense that it appears as a forged metal blade.  By contrast the blade wielded by the Other is described as ethereal and unlike a metal blade. 

Actually, Dawn is described quite oppositely - not like human metal at all. In fact, the only thing it seems to have in common with "metal" is that it is durable and sharp:

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

[Voice]

On 2/20/2016 at 5:00 PM, Dorian Martell said:

1: The Watch predating the wall? not sure where you get this one. I would say that the watch could have arisen from a disparate number of folks who held out against the others, but they wouldn't be "the watch" as it is now  At least that is where I get the "We are the watchers on the walls" bit.

2:  Multiple personality disorder is a specific medical condition. The only person who I have seen that in the books is Theon, and most of it is not really split personality, but an identity crisis that came out of his fostering/imprisonment and later his torture and imprisonment.  Unless of course, Theon Durden is shown to be fact. Then he will truly have the disorder from his PTSD
the Night's King could just be an evil guy allied with the vestiges of the other's army, but again. we don't know. We only have a description of his transformation, which happens all the time without a psychological disorder. We see Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Sam and almost every POV transform over the course of the books. 
Lastly, unless something is revealed through a Bran POV looking back in time thing, The watch was formed  either after the long night and after the wall was built, or maybe at the end of the long night before the battle for the dawn, and then they built the wall.  Why would there be a watch, with 12 other Lord Commanders, before there was a wall or before the others came? That is the big timeline rub. How can he be the 13th lord commander of an organization created to watch out for an enemy that has not revealed themselves to humanity yet? No enemy=No Watch= No LC 1, much less an LC 13 

3: Thank you for finding my unsubstantiated theory cool. 

4: Of Dawn being Ice, the only way I can think it will work is along the lines of my pet theory, in that the last hero (bran the builder?) divided his possessions up among his children or close relatives and sent the weapons and arms elsewhere.  Then again, being unsupported by any text, Dawn being forged by a founder of House Dayne is the logical conclusion 

5: As for Jon getting Dawn, while I don't see it as impossible, it just seems highly improbable from what has been revealed in the books so far. Either he travels to dorne, or someone brings it to him, after finding out that a bastard son of ned stark is actually a Dayne or someone figures out that Dawn is Ice somehow. Again, all very unlikely, but then again, this is GRRM

6: And lastly, Again, the song of ice and fire. Although the Daynes are Dornish, we do not know their words. Since the Targs words are literally fire and blood, this makes far more sense than a song of Ice and shooting stars. And yes, dorne is synonymous with heat, the daynes are not.  Also, fire is fire. If the Daynes have some form of heat in their words then maybe, but being a son of a targ does not make Jon any less of a scion of Westeros. They ruled westeros for almost 300 years.  His wolf just proves his connection to the north and the first men. If the books were written on time, there wouldn't have been enough time to pick out all the little details about Jon, and the reveal of him being Rhaegar's son would have a ton more weight. As of now, we are going to get that reveal on the show. 

1. It is definitely debatable, but there appears to be an older Vow of the Night's Watch, and a newer one. The newer one seems to have been forged after the rise of Night's King and talks about wives, children, crowns and glory.

The older one is spoken by Samwell at the Black Gate beneath the Nightfort, and is far simpler:

I am the sword in the darkness.
I am the watcher on the walls.
I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

Whether or not you are of the mind there is an elder vow and a newer vow, I think the usage of this particular refrain at the Black Gate is rather telling. The Black Gate existed before the Wall, as the vow spoken to open it mentions more than one. "I am the watcher [singular] on the walls [plural and lowercase]."

Thus, before there was "the Wall"-proper, there were several walls from which a watcher might watch. These watchers who watch were clearly on the lookout during the Long Night... and scanning the darkness for the Others, hence the three blasts of the horn to wake the sleepers.

Thus, the Night's Watch predates the Wall. Their vows demonstrate this antiquity.

 

2. Yes, Theon is the only case that would likely be classified clinically as multiple personality disorder. But Arya isn't too far off. We see similar dualities of personas in Ned the Lord and Ned the Father, Catelyn v Lady Stoneheart, Bran the climber v Bran the broken, etc.

We are told quite explicitly in the text that the 13th Lord Commander was suffering an identity crisis:

Quote

 

ASOS, Bran IV

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

 

We know that by day, he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. And, we know that by night, he ruled. And, we know that he became known as the Night's King. And, we are told that he was a Stark, and that mayhaps his name was Brandon. Clearly, there are some contradictions afoot. By day he is Mayhaps-Brandon Stark, 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. By night, he is "ruling" and proclaiming a woman with skin like the moon and eyes like blue stars queen, giving her his seed and soul, and with strange sorceries bending his brothers to his will.

Mayhaps he still goes by the name Brandon Stark, mayhaps he even still considers himself a Builder, but clearly, the man underwent a transformation. That is what I mean by his personality being split.

 

3. Yeah it's a cool idea. I'd like to see you flesh it out.

 

4. I'm not against the notion that the first Sword of the Morning was related intimately to Mayhaps-Brandon Stark. It would make a lot of sense if that were the case. But yes, unsupported by text it is difficult to make any such claim beyond speculation. What is supported by text, in my opinion, is this little pet theory of mine here. Each proposition is supported by text.

 

5. Is it any less plausible than Jon rising from the dead?

And speaking of that, such a feat would make him very much like dawn-itself.

 

6. If Dorne is synonymous with heat, and the Daynes are Dornish... can we really drive a wedge between the two? The text gives us no reason to do so. Daynes are Dornishmen. Feel free to disagree, but I think the text is on my side on this one.

House Dayne is also specifically tied to heat. There is their Dornish location, not to mention their castle set against the Red Mountains. We are repeatedly told throughout the series that Dorne is hot, an arid climate with hot food, hot women, and Arabian-style sand steeds. What reason have we to make House Dayne an exception to their location, rather than be a part of it?

After all, they are the oldest House in Dorne. Might be that Dornishmen have gained many of their traits from the Daynes. Who knows.

Conjecture aside, let me ask you Dorian... When you are up all night, or wake up before sunrise, does the world feel colder at Dawn? Or, does it suddenly fill with heat.

Thus, regardless of House Dayne's words, Dawn is synonymous with Fire:  the fire of the Sun (aka, the Star of the Morning).

It may not be as spectacular as Drogon's flames, but neither will it roast your daughters. Instead, merely, The Night Ends.

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Voice said:

LOL It's okay. I agree with you - in terms of the real world. But in this universe, we have no meteorites, only fallen stars. And in this universe, there are stars and Stars. Some stay in the sky. Some wake in the eyes of the dead. Some stare coldly from inhuman forms of life.

In this series, with passages like these:

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once."

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart."

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged. He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight. Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth.

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Yes, thought Bran, but it's blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

 

/quotes

...We cannot discount the anthropomorphication of stars - and their faults and felling.

 

Actually, Dawn is described quite oppositely - not like human metal at all. In fact, the only thing it seems to have in common with "metal" is that it is durable and sharp:

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

I would say that it's more accurate to say that Dawn is exactly like Valyrian steel in all respects save for it's color and it's glow. You are wrong to say the only things it has in common with metal is durability and sharpness: the text says it is similar to V steel is all respects save for the pale as milkglass part, and then list examples (sharpness, durability) but those are the limits of the similarities. They are similar in all respects save for the color and the "alive with light" bit.

Not saying that fallen star can't be metaphorical, in theory - I mean, it isn't, but I'll play along with your mummery - but let's be accurate with how we characterize the book. You said there was no description of a meteor and you were wrong abut that also, as I have shown with the very same quote you quoted from above - Dawn is made form "a pale stone of magical powers."